A Student's Demand

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

No chance! Direct that person elsewheres. Big red flag here on the legal problems one will take on. The best part; I don't like outsiders dictating what they do/want. :asian:

Me likey the last half the most...since when do students dictate the terms of training with the instructor? I may be old fashioned, but the house rules are set by the house, not the guest. Student comes to teacher, and does things the teachers way, not the other way around.

 

[loki09789]

Me likey the last half the most...since when do students dictate the terms of training with the instructor? I may be old fashioned, but the house rules are set by the house, not the guest. Student comes to teacher, and does things the teachers way, not the other way around.

Agreed,

There is a huge difference between a studet telling the teacher what he/she will and won't learn and the teacher individualizing or tailoring instruction to fit the student. In the latter, the expert is deciding the approach based on the student and the material. In the former, the student has no idea what the end goal really is, so it is whim and self importance.

This is one of the criticisms of the Mantesory (spelling?) approach to education that I don't like.

 

[Black Bear]

Oh, I don't know about that. There's nothing wrong with this inherently, because there's nothing that the prospective student is so-called "dictating". I don't even know why anyone's thinking "dictating". A teacher and student always enter into the activity on the basis of some consensual agreement. The question is would you, the teacher, agree to different terms of exchange than what you normally do. I don't see why teachers would take umbrage at the fact that the student would propose some terms.

No, I don't see why that aspect should be an issue at all.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Exactly. Also, if the student knows it all and what he should and should not learn then why is he coming to the teacher ?

It reminds me of a story i read where this student comes to this dojo. He tells the teacher of how good of a fighter he is and who he has studied with. The teacher invites him to come sit and have tea with him.
They go in the back and sit down. The student starts bragging about this and that. Who he has beaten up what he has done and what he needs to learn. The teacher keeps pouring the tea until it over flows and on to the student. The student says "hey what are you doing", "stop you are overflowing and spilling all over me". The teachers asks him why ? The student says "the cup is too full and it is over flowing".
The teacher says "just like you, your cup is over flowing and for you to learn something you need to empty your cup so i can teach you".

If the student wants to learn he will let the teacher teach him. Not dictate what he will and what he wont learn.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Agreed,

There is a huge difference between a studet telling the teacher what he/she will and won't learn and the teacher individualizing or tailoring instruction to fit the student. In the latter, the expert is deciding the approach based on the student and the material. In the former, the student has no idea what the end goal really is, so it is whim and self importance.

This is one of the criticisms of the Mantesory (spelling?) approach to education that I don't like.

 

[Touch Of Death]

A prospective student (a newbie) enters your dojo and states that he has researched your training methods and noticed that the last 45 minutes of each class is devoted to sparring. He states that he will pay the normal scheduled fees but, he only wants to participate in the sparring sessions and nothing else. He will arrive a the start of each class but will only sit and wait until the sparring sessions begin. No rank expected nor will he spar against a female or anyone with less than 2 years experience in this particular style/system.

Should Sensei allow this? If yes, why? If no, why?

No! It sets a bad pressident to have "special" students. They are either with the program or they are not with the program.
Sean

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Exactly. Also, if the student knows it all and what he should and should not learn then why is he coming to the teacher ?

It reminds me of a story i read where this student comes to this dojo. He tells the teacher of how good of a fighter he is and who he has studied with. The teacher invites him to come sit and have tea with him.
They go in the back and sit down. The student starts bragging about this and that. Who he has beaten up what he has done and what he needs to learn. The teacher keeps pouring the tea until it over flows and on to the student. The student says "hey what are you doing", "stop you are overflowing and spilling all over me". The teachers asks him why ? The student says "the cup is too full and it is over flowing".
The teacher says "just like you, your cup is over flowing and for you to learn something you need to empty your cup so i can teach you".

If the student wants to learn he will let the teacher teach him. Not dictate what he will and what he wont learn.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

The story is a classic and illustrates many excellent points. Begs the question...if the student has it all down, why did he even enter the dojo to engage in doscourse with the teacher in the first place? Wouldn't it be silly to travel all the way to Japan to study Aikido with Morihei Ueshiba, then tell him when you got there that you really like his shomen-uchi irimi nage, but have no interest in learning anything else he has to offer? Moreover, would you be surprised if he told you to go fly a kite?

 

[Black Bear]

This is one of the criticisms of the Mantesory (spelling?) approach to education that I don't like.

Montessori?

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Thank you. That is a good point.

But I have a feeling O Sensi would probably snicker and even laugh a bit as he walked away saying something in japanese and laughing out loud heheh.

I am sure this incident has happens tons of time where students show their pride and ignorance when meeting someone who could help them go futher in their studies but the student is too full of themselves to see it.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

The story is a classic and illustrates many excellent points. Begs the question...if the student has it all down, why did he even enter the dojo to engage in doscourse with the teacher in the first place? Wouldn't it be silly to travel all the way to Japan to study Aikido with Morihei Ueshiba, then tell him when you got there that you really like his shomen-uchi irimi nage, but have no interest in learning anything else he has to offer? Moreover, would you be surprised if he told you to go fly a kite?

 

[loki09789]

Montessori?

that's the one. It is tough to call up all this stuff from so long ago

 

[Touch Of Death]

Oh, I don't know about that. There's nothing wrong with this inherently, because there's nothing that the prospective student is so-called "dictating". I don't even know why anyone's thinking "dictating". A teacher and student always enter into the activity on the basis of some consensual agreement. The question is would you, the teacher, agree to different terms of exchange than what you normally do. I don't see why teachers would take umbrage at the fact that the student would propose some terms.

No, I don't see why that aspect should be an issue at all.

BB,
Lets say the guy has a lot of bad habbits you don't want the other students picking up on. You aren't allowed to tell the guy how to fight (per your agreement) and all you can do is tell your students not to do what he is doing. He's made it clear he never intends to show control or so much as work with a beginner. The guy sounds like dead weight.
Sean

 

[Black Bear]

Italian physician with some good ideas. Too bad her methodology became kind of like a brand-name, so that many people are "pro-Montessori" and "anti-Montessori" instead of seeing it for what it is, good and bad, like other theorists.

I went to a Montessori preschool when I was a kid, and got no individualized attention. My favourite thing to play with there was... shoe polish.

 

[loki09789]

Italian physician with some good ideas. Too bad her methodology became kind of like a brand-name, so that many people are "pro-Montessori" and "anti-Montessori" instead of seeing it for what it is, good and bad, like other theorists.

I went to a Montessori preschool when I was a kid, and got no individualized attention. My favourite thing to play with there was... shoe polish.

I think it is like the 'whole language' dispute: It has more to do with the way people are misusing/misunderstanding it and not so much a problem with the idea/methodology itself

 

[Black Bear]

If it's the "whole-language learning" approach to teaching reading, I disagree with it big-time.

 

[loki09789]

If it's the "whole-language learning" approach to teaching reading, I disagree with it big-time.

What are your reservations about it? Personally, I am upset at it's misuse in New York State standards at primary levels, because there is a wave of middle/High school age students who have very little conscious control of their reading/critical thinking/writing skills. THey seem to be pushing a love of literature over basic techinical skill. That is where thematic instruction as a component can help keep whole lang. effectively framed and conventions/grammar/lit. devices can be focused on for instruction. Whole lang. used alone, it too much of a free for all and hard to keep students at least moving in the same direction if not on the same track.

ELA focus is really about critical thinking over 'love of the classic literature' - which is sort of whole language. The problem is that NYState hasn't changed over the assessment/regents examination format to align with the shift to whole language approach applications. I like it in theory because it gives the student the chance to read/write from a position of choice, therefore making it easier to engrain grammar conventions because they are more personally invested and want it to be right. Like all the theories and approaches, I use elements of it but don't buy into it wholesale.

It works best when you don't have to adhere so strictly to New York State teaching standards or testing schedules, but even with those factors, I have had pretty good results by setting up assignments/unit plans that incorporate 'options' - any/all of which are aligned to the standards and skills - instead of total choice.

It takes a lot more work from the teacher because it ends up being so individualized, but students seem to respond to the choice thing - even if it is only partially illusional. I guess I use 'Whole lang.' combined with UBD/Thematic unit planning/cooperative approaches in some mish mosh combo, but it makes it easier to teach Grammar/conventions/literary devices and techniques in a way that they actually don't fall asleep in class from 'love of learning'

The BIGGEST failing of Whole language or Reading/Writing workshop approaches is in most teachers' class management consistency and willingness to be the class leader/authority and not just manage a class and activities. Teachers are expected to model and write along with the students. Most teachers I know are stronger on planning/lecturing and assigning than they are at leading and creating a really solid class culture. Whole lang. really needs a solid class culture to work well. Most of the teachers I know don't want to bother with the adjustment phase that students will go through in order to be productive in the approach.

 

[Black Bear]

Big topic, memories lost in the mists of graduate seminars of yore. Will come back to it later.

There was some hokey stuff in it where they were claiming that tiny tots could read entire words without first learning basic phonetics and stuff. Of course they could read things like a "pepsi" sign-- but they were using the logo as a cue, not the word, as researchers quickly showed when they manipulated the sign text and logo independently.

I do think when teaching reading folks should be making use of natural students' interest in reading (normal children LIKE to read and want to learn to read better, if you don't get in their way) but the whole language doctrine just had some silliness in it, and as you pointed out a neglect of some deliberate, systematic basic skill development.

 

[sojobow]

I do think when teaching reading folks should be making use of natural students' interest in reading (normal children LIKE to read and want to learn to read better, if you don't get in their way) but the whole language doctrine just had some silliness in it, and as you pointed out a neglect of some deliberate, systematic basic skill development.

Forgive me for injecting myself into your private conversation. Very interesting as I have a young relative that also was a student of the system in education you speak of. Quite expensive too. Kind of like a "we're better than others" type atmosphere.

Anyway, I'm still trying to figure out should Sensei/Sifu/Soke/Shidoshi/Shihan or Teacher accept our new student into his school even though the student only wants to spar and nothing else. Yes or No?

Its not a trick question, just an inquiry. Most schools have some type of Release of Liability forms for everyone. So, don't think liability will be an issue. If the kid is put up against one of your blackbelts, wouldn't the blackbelt have enough control to deal with this newbie? So, don't think our Newbie will be in any danger plus, Sensei is monitoring the sessions and won't let things get out of hand.

Now that I think more and read some of the replies, It came to me that if Sensei says "no way Jose," isn't teacher really saying that he can't teach anyone who doesn't start at point A? Seems Teach is on the hook here. If he says no, one might think that he really can't teach or doesn't have faith that his system can't absorb a challenge. If Teach says yes, don't see what anyone else has to say to him. He is THE TEACHER.

Good points though. Even liked the post where the person said they train everywhere and it's free too. Guess someone might say that: you get what you pay for. But since I haven't attended, my opinion is useless on the free school.

I'm interested in what some of you "Teachers" have to say on our Newbie.

 

[wadowoman]

It's not a question of whether the teacher can teach him, he hasn't asked for any teaching. He has asked to just come and spar. So the question is should this be allowed. I stand by my original answer which was no.
Sharon

 

[Black Bear]

I wouldn't.

As far as release forms go, they don't totally eliminate the liability variable. It's a recognition on the part of the student that they're participating in an activity with inherent risks. If the instructor does something negligent (e.g. possibly, introducing someone into the mix in a way that the risks he introduces are not well managed), they are not off the hook.

People can't sign away their rights to quite the degree that some folks seem to think.

Then there's the student comfort issue.

Ultimately, it's a personal choice, instructor's discretion. They just gotta know that they are incurring some unique challenges with this situation.

 

[sojobow]

It's not a question of whether the teacher can teach him, he hasn't asked for any teaching. He has asked to just come and spar. So the question is should this be allowed. I stand by my original answer which was no.
Sharon

I guess you could infer in my question that the Newbie was just going to "come and spar." I couldn't add every senerio in my question. So, lets just say that the Newbie also told the Sensei that the Newbie did expect to follow school rules regarding sparring and that the Newbie expected the Sensei to correct him and teach him as he participated. Its kind of like learning to swim. Some people learn by just being thrown in the deep end. They sink or they swim. This is the attitude of our Newbie.

If you want, we'll add another point: The Newbie also tells the Teacher, at the original interview, that: "I believes anyone who says that they want to learn martial arts for any other reason than just learning to devastate an opponent, is just plain lying. I don't want to take my time learning philosophy or meditation. I just want to learn to fight very well when necessary and then I'm gonna buy a Colt .45."

Would this change your opinion?

 

[8253]

you shouldnt be allowed to spar until the instructor knows that you at least have some basics down which means you shouldnt be allowed spar until you have at least advanced into a ranking above white.