A sticking point (for me).

[Hand Sword]

Just speaking from my past experiences here, but, something sticks in my craw so to speak. When around instructors and near test days I often notice an interesting (at least to me) activity. They print out fill out the diplomas ahead of time for all of the test day members. I know that this seems silly, but, when I came up, a test was issued, and everything was discussed by the instructors behind closed doors, while we were in meditation position. If passed, the forms were signed then and issued with a new rank in front of you when your eyes opened.
I know some think, "So what? No biggie!" "With so many, it's cool to get a head start on paperwork, and it can always be ripped up." While true, and I get the "gotta be efficient" argument, I am still bothered. Is this practice a symptom of a bigger issue? Is it apart of the conveyor belt attitude going on, where appeasement of the students to keep them around rules the day? I mean, should tests be able to be failed, or gone through before a determination is made? Is the "test" idea a crock? An illusion? Everyone passes before it and won't fail or have the possibility to do so? Is it all just something done for the sake of formality? Is it a sign of not caring, except for monthly income? Do other instructors do it?

 

[Haakon]

Often "tests" aren't really tests. After weeks, months sometimes years of observing a student the instructor should know if they're ready to advance in rank. "tests" are often more of a public demonstration and award ceremony because the instructor knows what the student is capable of.

People should be able to fail a test, but along the same lines instructors shouldn't set people up to fail and should only have people test they are confident will pass.

 

[rlobrecht]

We have multiple opportunities to pre-test in class in the two weeks prior to a test. You have to demonstrate everything you will have to demonstrate at the test. It's done in the same format as the testing, but there are less people in attendance. If you don't pass, you don't get to test.

That said, I have seen two people fail a test, even after passing their pre-test. Both blanked completely on their pattern performance.

 

[seasoned]

Often "tests" aren't really tests. After weeks, months sometimes years of observing a student the instructor should know if they're ready to advance in rank. "tests" are often more of a public demonstration and award ceremony because the instructor knows what the student is capable of.

People should be able to fail a test, but along the same lines instructors shouldn't set people up to fail and should only have people test they are confident will pass.

If everyone is on board with this then fine, the question should not come up. By the time people are wondering, then it was not explained clearly.

 

[Hand Sword]

Often "tests" aren't really tests. After weeks, months sometimes years of observing a student the instructor should know if they're ready to advance in rank. "tests" are often more of a public demonstration and award ceremony because the instructor knows what the student is capable of.

People should be able to fail a test, but along the same lines instructors shouldn't set people up to fail and should only have people test they are confident will pass.

Understood. But keep in mind that has always been a true quality. Instructors would never put you before a testing board, etc... without thinking your qualified according to their views. Even still, Tests were the entity to put pressure on students. It exposed weaknesses that could have accounted for a serious disaster in a certain situation by way of pressure. I've seen many go blank and become dysfunctional because of this in many aspects of life, including the arts. This also included many skilled athletes and artists. What's the point of it if you already know going in, if you give some sort of performance and last to the end, you'll pass. That's not a test. IMHO, Tests of yourself are what determine you. Otherwise, it's going through the motions for the hell of it. Ceremonies were rewards for passing tests. Not just done to be done. I dunno, I guess it was a different era then and culture. You either could or couldn't. Class was one thing. A one shot deal was another.

 

[seasoned]

Understood. But keep in mind that has always been a true quality. Instructors would never put you before a testing board, etc... without thinking your qualified according to their views. Even still, Tests were the entity to put pressure on students. It exposed weaknesses that could have accounted for a serious disaster in a certain situation by way of pressure. I've seen many go blank and become dysfunctional because of this in many aspects of life, including the arts. This also included many skilled athletes and artists. What's the point of it if you already know going in, if you give some sort of performance and last to the end, you'll pass. That's not a test. IMHO, Tests of yourself are what determine you. Otherwise, it's going through the motions for the hell of it. Ceremonies were rewards for passing tests. Not just done to be done. I dunno, I guess it was a different era then and culture. You either could or couldn't. Class was one thing. A one shot deal was another.

You make some very good points HS. We talk about pressure testing our techniques, why not out focus and concentration? I came up through the era of spot testing. While training, Sensei would tap you on the shoulder and say your testing at the next test. There was never a getting ready for testing, we were always ready, but as you say, it was the pressure of being scrutinized, that made all the difference. It was the on the spot pressure of pass or fail...... Something like self defense.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

An instructor told me once that the fact someone is even at grading means they have practically passed. At my club an instructor wont send you off to grading unless they have observed that that you are more than capable in all facets of your grading. We still have people fail but its more the fault of an instructor sending someone along who clearly isnt ready. My instructor made me spar every black belt in my class several times and made sure I was successful with my timber breaking everytime before he would allow me to grade and the same went for my form and conditioning and fitness. They can only test so much material at the actual grading so I think it really is up to the instructor to make sure a student is really ready to go before they send them along, and if they are not they can wait until next time. Bsaically when a student fails our GM is more disappointed in the instructor for sending them along when they clearly were not ready.

 

[Danny T]

With our Little Dragons and Junior Dragons programs testing is scheduled with parents and friends invited we do as much of the "paperwork" in advance to help maintain a time schedule. So yes, with the youth programs we do certificates ahead of time until they get to higher “rank” (our youth cannot attain BB) Brown Belt levels we have a certificate signing procedure. With our teens and adults testing is usually unscheduled on the spot testing except for Black Belt and certificates are made and signed after testing is passed.

With the youth if they are unable to complete testing with a satisfactory score then they do not advance to the next level. They will have 1 addition attempt to satisfy the requirements the following week or will have to wait until the next scheduled testing.

Just because the paperwork is done in advance with the expectation of advancement that does not mean the advancement is automatic. The practitioner “must” perform under the pressure of not advancing if they did not satisfy the requirements.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The deploma is printed and made out, the belt is bought but if you blow it, I can always keep them in the trunk.

You should be ready and we give you time to prep and alot of help in doing so but it's up to you durring the test and it is failable.

Who wants something for sure?

 

[Carol]

Here's a slightly different take. I don't have an issue personally with printing stuff up in advance.

My late father's last name was one letter away from a rather common last name...we spelled our name with a U instead of an O. I'm not going to disclose what his name was, but it was akin to having a name like "Gumez" when everyone is used to seeing "Gomez", or something like that.

His name was virtually unheard of when I was a kid, I remember seeing all kinds of stuff...golf trophies, phone book entries, even business documents constantly misspelling our name with an O instead of a U.

Yet in the last 20-30 years it has become more commonplace. My armchair theory is that the advancements of computers and databases have been making our name less prone to the misspellings of human error. Accuracy is very, very important.

Another thing to keep in mind is how non-stories can become hot issues if there is enough political ooomph behind them.
The writing on Person A's cert was sloppy, but Person B's name was neat ergo one is legit and one is not.

Or, a name that isn't misspelled, but looks misspelled. I have longtime friends with a last name of DiFranco, and I have seen many people hand write the name so it looks like "DeFranco" instead of "DiFranco" (which is a sore subject with the family for a couple of reasons).

What if, instead of golf trophies, my dad's name was misspelled on martial arts certs? The result would be a lifetime of controversy for anyone reading the cert.

When you do up the cert, it is seen by other eyes, and corrections can be made if needed. So...I don't necessarily think the pre-printed certs are necessarily a symptom of mass-produced rank...plus it brings a benefit of added accuracy and consistency.

 

[Yondanchris]

Haakon, your right

In my art and Dojo, the purpose of tests is to create at atmosphere of acheavement and "honor" making the students perform at their top ability to "earn" their rank. I WILL NOT send a student to a test if they are NOT READY...or I have set them up to FAIL. In my years as an instructor I have only failed 2 students because of "mass stupidity" during the tests, such as goofing off or inability to follow instructions. Soon after that they left the Dojo to go to a "belt factory". I have rarely seen students who where properly trained fail a belt test, as instructors it is our job to put our students on the right path and one of the points of evaluation of our students and ourselves is belt testing.

Rank is earned, in my dojo we only charge a small fee to cover the belt and certificate cost.

*FYI pet peve coming*
what is up with the rediculous testing fees? I remember paying $1200 for my Nidan test...what the heck! *sorry to hijack the thred*

My humble and ignorant .02 cents,

Chris

Often "tests" aren't really tests. After weeks, months sometimes years of observing a student the instructor should know if they're ready to advance in rank. "tests" are often more of a public demonstration and award ceremony because the instructor knows what the student is capable of.

People should be able to fail a test, but along the same lines instructors shouldn't set people up to fail and should only have people test they are confident will pass.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I believe it depends upon the situation really. From reading the thread I believe everyone agrees with the idea of not testing a student who isn't ready or qualified to test. My instructor stressed this to me when I started teaching and I have followed his advice.

So I see nothing wrong with filling out the cert. beforehand if I am going to be on the board and I will be conducting the test basically. I know they will pass before they get out there as long as they don't totally screw up and have a panic attack, or they are disrespectful to the other instructors etc. etc. That said, it is my responsibility to train them enough that their test seems easy compared to what they had to do to get there. I'm not advocating a easy test here, it's about preparation.

However on the other hand I believe if an organization is having a big test, normally like dan ranks, or students are coming from several different schools then the certs could be made out for convenience sake, but not signed before the test is over and the instructors talk about who passed and who didn't. At this type of exam the person watching you may not even know who you are and they should have the say so if you passed or not.

Once one of my students is ready to test for an intermediate belt (under black) I try and hold them off till I can set up a exam board of a at least couple of other outside instructors to hold a test for my students. At that test if one of board members wasn't satisfied with my student, then the student wouldn't pass.

One final thought.As far as filling out or signing the certs a head of time. Having a room full of parents with young kids, grandparents, friends, students etc. etc. is not the best time to start trying to fill out the certs. Mistakes happen and that does a disservice to your students. I once had the certs filled out but didn't get the signatures of the board members present, I then had to send them off to be signed. What a pain!!! Took me almost two months to get them back. That is way to long for the students to receive their certs, It was an honest mistake. But test time isn't the time to do this.

 

[Laus]

My former Sensei waited until after the test to order the belts, but he never read the exams that we were required to hand in (I know this because I was the one who collected and filed them, ordered the belts, etc etc.). That always annoyed me, especially when people got flak for things down the road they would have known had they been corrected. As for the diplomas, they were done when they were done. We frequently got our belts without the certificate. One year around Christmas we realized we had a stack of nearly a years worth of undistributed diplomas, and ended up mailing a large portion of them out. So much for ceremony.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Just speaking from my past experiences here, but, something sticks in my craw so to speak. When around instructors and near test days I often notice an interesting (at least to me) activity. They print out fill out the diplomas ahead of time for all of the test day members. I know that this seems silly, but, when I came up, a test was issued, and everything was discussed by the instructors behind closed doors, while we were in meditation position. If passed, the forms were signed then and issued with a new rank in front of you when your eyes opened.
I know some think, "So what? No biggie!" "With so many, it's cool to get a head start on paperwork, and it can always be ripped up." While true, and I get the "gotta be efficient" argument, I am still bothered. Is this practice a symptom of a bigger issue? Is it apart of the conveyor belt attitude going on, where appeasement of the students to keep them around rules the day? I mean, should tests be able to be failed, or gone through before a determination is made? Is the "test" idea a crock? An illusion? Everyone passes before it and won't fail or have the possibility to do so? Is it all just something done for the sake of formality? Is it a sign of not caring, except for monthly income? Do other instructors do it?

The instructor believes his own eye and thinks the students should be wearing a new rank and be learning more advanced. The test is part of the cerimony, and is linked to a philisophical concept called "Cerimonial Truth", which is another way of solidifying the event. If a student quits, walks out, and simply never comes back, the failed.
Sean

 

[Stac3y]

I do them in advance, but I make DAMN sure no students see them. With the kids, especially, they might slack on their tests if they think it's a done deal. If they fail, I shred them. When you have big classes, you have to do paperwork in advance.

 

[MJS]

Just speaking from my past experiences here, but, something sticks in my craw so to speak. When around instructors and near test days I often notice an interesting (at least to me) activity. They print out fill out the diplomas ahead of time for all of the test day members. I know that this seems silly, but, when I came up, a test was issued, and everything was discussed by the instructors behind closed doors, while we were in meditation position. If passed, the forms were signed then and issued with a new rank in front of you when your eyes opened.
I know some think, "So what? No biggie!" "With so many, it's cool to get a head start on paperwork, and it can always be ripped up." While true, and I get the "gotta be efficient" argument, I am still bothered. Is this practice a symptom of a bigger issue? Is it apart of the conveyor belt attitude going on, where appeasement of the students to keep them around rules the day? I mean, should tests be able to be failed, or gone through before a determination is made? Is the "test" idea a crock? An illusion? Everyone passes before it and won't fail or have the possibility to do so? Is it all just something done for the sake of formality? Is it a sign of not caring, except for monthly income? Do other instructors do it?

When I was part of the testing process, this was the way that I remember it being done.....the panel of insts. would sit in front of the testees, they'd perform the required material, the insts. would leave the room and discuss. The diplomas were already prepared, so all that was needed was the sigs.

Now, this is where it get tricky. The test, as far as I was concerned, was a 'show', meaning they, at an earlier day/time, were tested by an inst. and then told to come on another set day/time, with family, friends, etc. and they basically ran thru everything again. The downside of this, IMO, is, what happens if they suck that day? They could've looked fantastic on the other day, but now, here they are, standing in front of everyone, and they forget something, do something wrong, or overall just look like ****. Do they still get promoted? How can you give someone a rank, in front of everyone, knowing they sucked, and tell them they have to retest privately another time? Doesnt that defeat the purpose? If they still suck, does the rank and cert. get taken away?

When you're in school, and you take a test, the teacher passes out the papers back to you, and it'd be fairly easy to figure out if someone failed. In college, many times grades are posted in the open, so again, easy to see who did well and who didn't. Seems to me, that today, out of fear that you'll upset someone, hurt someones feelings, risk losing a student, etc., that you have to put on this show, so everyone thinks the student passes, when in reality, they have to retest. I say humility is part of life. Either way, people are going to find out, so, test everyone, those who pass, great. Those who fail...well, work harder and maybe you'll be ready the next time. Perhaps knowing that you'll be embarrassed in front of everyone, will make you work harder.

 

[Hand Sword]

Hmm. family and friends gauking during a "test?" Sounds like the pressure issue, though not in a negative sense. This one would cause the feeling to please and create over zealousness and execution, causing the suck factor. Interesting point to consider. Either way, it's pressure causing fault to happen or lack of discipline. Great point!