A Second American Civil War?

[sma_book]

Please go on with this first thought. I am about as lunatic-left-wing-latte-drinking New Englander as you are going to find on this board or any other, and I missed my call for a civil war. The only weapons I have employed to stir others to my side of an argument is my superior intellect (I hope) and rigourous debate.

Hey, I know for an absolute *fact* that you don't drink latte, and you sure as heck don't have a Volvo. You might be called an Orvis-wielding Jeep driver, but definately not a Volvo......

- Sheryl

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I have to agree with Chad. Look at the historical examples of insurgency, even the examples of today in Iraq. A handful of highly motivated gueriilas in their home turf can really play havoc on highly trained military troops; particularly when those troops are restricted by rules of engagement that limit what course of action they may take.

Tim Kashino

I think theres a difference between 'cause problems' and 'have a chance'.

Right now, I'm seeing casulty rates of 400 rebels to 1 US marine in Iraq. Thats killed, not wounded. I've seen numbers of overall losses of over 100,000 Iraqi and Foriegn vs < 10,000 US K/W/M. If the US can domestically deploy 100,000 troops, combined with the mostly honest* local police forces, I can't see more than speedbump skirmishes that result in alot of civilians injured, and a good amount of property damage, but only a few govmt. losses and the majority of the rebels killed.

The US has proven that it has no problem using force against it's own people. Waco, Ruby Ridge, Kent State and more prove that. The last American uprising was fought using scortched earth policies, human wave tactics against a technically inferior and outnumbered foe who was deeply religious and fighting for thier own right to self determination. This time, we as a people are pretty much even technically but the military has all the 'good toys'. The fact that a few functional machine guns or AAM's may be floating around doesn't negate the fact that a true army just doesn't shop at Walmart for it's weapons. We simply don't have the quantity or quality of weapons one would find in Iraq or Somalia. Another problem would be, I honestly don't think the people have it in their hearts to fight. Sure, they complain, whine and *****...but how many vote? Speak out? campaign? Woman and Blacks and other minority groups fought for generations for the right to vote...yet less than 50% are registered to vote, and less than 50% of registered voters use the right.

Robert will muddy the issue by thinking the first civil war was mostly about wealthy slave owners keeping people in bondage and women in thier place. He chooses to ignore the fact that slavery was a dying institution, the bulk of the southern army was made of non-slave owners, that 5% of slave owners were of African decent, and that there were a significant number of troops on the southern side who were also of African decent. One has to wonder how things like race relations would have turned out if things had progressed without war. We will ignore that reality for the moment and say that Slavery was the galvinizing force that brought the country to war. But, we can leave the in depth debate on the first war to another thread, which I'll be posting shortly as soon as I have time to finish my own research into it. I think it will be an interesting one.

What issues do "we the people" feel so passionately about that we would take up arms and willingly sacrifice our lives for?

I see defence of my home, my friends, my family as 3. As much as I believe that Gays are 'just people' and should have the same rights as anyone else, I don't know if I'd die for it. I wouldn't go to war for either Bush or Kerry. When they put on the uniform and lead an infantry charge..maybe...but, I don't 'believe' in either enough to think they are worth getting a splinter for, much less dying for. I just can't think of much of hand.

One thing I do believe in though is States Rights...or at least the right to succede. WNY really should go the way of W. Virginia and leave NYS. But, I wouldn't risk my life for that issue either.

Another point is, do we have any real regular militias left? These formed the core of the armies in the first war. Where will the core come from in a second? 30 'gun nuts' in Montana just isn't the same thing.


*Mostly Honest Police Forces - Reference to the fact that over 90% of the LEO in the US are honest, good minded people who do their jobs and do not abuse the privilage or position of being a LEO. This is in comparison to places such as Iraq where bribery, extortion and terror are the norm.

 

[michaeledward]

What issues do "we the people" feel so passionately about that we would take up arms and willingly sacrifice our lives for?

Another point is, do we have any real regular militias left? These formed the core of the armies in the first war. Where will the core come from in a second? 30 'gun nuts' in Montana just isn't the same thing.

Bob, living in the Northeast, I think we sometimes are unaware of the strength of beliefs held by our countrymen in other parts of the country. I'm not sure how much you get to travel around the country, but in my job I do. And sometimes it is a bit spooky, at least to me.

I was implementing a software program at a business in Mobile, Alabama ... and beneath each of the cash registers was a loaded hand-gun. To my knowledge, that doesn't happen up here in the Northeast.

I re-state my position that those in the Bible Belt believe strongly enough in the Protestant Religion to fight and die for it. If there is another incedent of the ATF or DEA surrounding a religious organization (Waco), we could see televangalists calling the faithful to rise up against a government attacking their religous beliefs.

I think it is also note-worthy that there was rarely any 'real regular militias'. They were farmers, and when the need arose, the picked up their weapons and lined up in the field. With all of the guns in the country, raising a militia, I think, would not be a difficult thing for Pat Robertson.

Mike

 

[Flatlander]

Bob, thank you for putting this de-railed monster back on track.

I think that revolutions and civil wars are borne out of an extreme dissatisfaction with the status quo. I can see that a continuance in the trend of class separation could light a few fuses.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Okay putting on my Military Thinking cap (yes it is possible lol).

I can see this in a bigger picture gentlemen let try to explain.

1. Another Terrorist Incident occurs on US Soil with much a higher body count than 9/11
2. Civil Rights will be further cut back to the point of being in a quasi Martial Law State
3. We will as a people will be dubbed into having our focus on Muslim people for the "incident" pretty much similar to the German People focus on Jewish people during the 30's
4. Giving Americans an 'enemy" to focus on and redirect us from the real true enemy that sits in power whom ever that is or will be.
5. We will be fighting on several fronts with the following issues-- Civil & Religious to make "us" more secure.
6. There will be a massive round up of Ethinc groups by either Military and or Milita(private) to make us feel safer while certain people consolidate its power base.

Just some food for thought

 

[Melissa426]

I re-state my position that those in the Bible Belt believe strongly enough in the Protestant Religion to fight and die for it. If there is another incedent of the ATF or DEA surrounding a religious organization (Waco), we could see televangalists calling the faithful to rise up against a government attacking their religous beliefs.


Mike

Oh, please.
Mike, I like to read your posts and I respect them for their thoughtfulness and insight, but you are way off base here.

I don't know if you are involved in a mainstream Protestant religion, but I am.
I can tell you that David Koresh's Branch Davidians were a cult. They have about as much in common with the average believer in the Bible Belt as Madonna (the singer) and Judaism.

There may be some people who would heed such a call, if you can find a televangelist who'd spew that garbage, but they are on the (lunatic) fringe, IMHO.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Matthew+7%3A+15-23&version=NIV

Posting items of a religious nature is risky. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. So, I'm an idiot.:uhyeah:

Peace,
Melissa

 

[rmcrobertson]

Among the ideological and intellectual premises for these discussions are:

1. The notion that politics divide simply into, "liberal," vs. "conservative," two diametrically opposed forces.

2. The reluctance to examine history accurately, or to put present discussions in anything resembling their actual historical context. For instance, "states' rights," as a term and point of discussion, has a long and exceedingly dishonorable history in this country, which can be traced back through the likes of Lester Maddox, through the Jim Crow laws, and on into the South's self-justification for civil war.

3. The bizarre idea that the words, "religious," and, "Christian," are synonyms, so that typically in these discussions the word, "Christian," never even appears, since most take it for granted that there is only one religion.

4. The notion that the terms, "Chritisan," and, "Protestant fundamentalist," are synonyms; out here in California, one often hears it said that, "Catholics aren't Christians," as the underpinning of attacks on, a) Mexican and Latin American immigrants; b) farmworkers' and other trade unions.

5. The notion that the, "status quo," is somehow owned and operated by liberals (which is why we hear incessantly about Hollywood liberals) and minorites, which is recurrently used to organize class resentment against everybody but the rich white guys who actually own and operate this country. For example, both Reagan and Bush II have run for office on the peculiar grounds that they are somehow, "outsiders," fighting to defend the American working stiff against Them.

6. The inability to meaningfully connect facts and theories, which would force the theories to change. Case in point: it remains odd to see working-class and lower-middle-class folks not merely defending, but actively arguing for, their own expropriation on behalf of the wealthy. Yet this takes place precisely at a time when jobs, medical care, access to education, public services of all kinds, are being taken away from most people in order that the very wealthy receive larger and larger tax cuts.

7. The failure to see oneself as a participant in American history, which for all its screwups, has generally moved towards improving civil rights, working conditions, education, medicine, etc., in a democraatic society. One case is point is the ongoing attacks on the very unions and collective bargaining groups that secured all sorts of rights (like the right to a 40-hour work-week) for workers. In other words, what remains remarkable is the extent to which the very people who call upon American history loudest and longest seem completely unaware of the nature of that history--and, in fact, actively repudiate American history in favor of fantasy.


P.S. I might also have listed the bizarre willingness to accept violent, racist, repressive nut-cults as regular old religions. It would be useful to study the history of such cults--try David Erdman's, "Blake: Prophet Against Empire," whose history is by and large very, very different from the cults we now see in this country. Groups like the Muggletonians were indeed radical in both their religion and their politics--yet curiously, they consistently opposed central authority, extended civil rights to women, black people, etc., and argued for something very like socialism. Today's groups--and Koresh's is an excellent example--tend to be violent, Fascist, extremely racist, and radically capitalist. This would seem to be in direct contradiction of the teachings of Christ--or did I miss the part in which Jesus advocated stockpiling automatic weapons, and commiting suicide if you don't get what you want?

 

[michaeledward]

Case in point: it remains odd to see working-class and lower-middle-class folks not merely defending, but actively arguing for, their own expropriation on behalf of the wealthy. Yet this takes place precisely at a time when jobs, medical care, access to education, public services of all kinds, are being taken away from most people in order that the very wealthy receive larger and larger tax cuts.

I often wonder, Robert, if the 'working-class and lower-middle class folks' you are refering to understand a) that they are in that socio-economic class and b) the vocabulary, sentence structure and argument.

As always, thanks. Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I see your point. But a) I put things plainly previously, and got yelled at; b) these ideas are well within the reach of anybody on this forum--after all, I got them.

But then, I went through the public school system at a time when--for all the little probs like segregation--there was an actual, growing commitment to educating every single student. And teachers actually knew stuff (again, for all the probs in what they knew), tried to teach it to students, and--above all-worked to teach students to think.

This included teaching weird stuff--like evolution, which remains the basis of a decent science education, and the wacky, radical notion that this was a democratic country in which all sorts of people had a part to play--not some creepy European monarchy, where you had to worship is only one way, rich people could order you around, and you hated everybody else.

That's why these notions about civil war are so ugly--they are an absolute rejection of everything this country has traditionally stood for.

 

[michaeledward]

Oh, please.
Mike, I like to read your posts and I respect them for their thoughtfulness and insight, but you are way off base here.

I don't know if you are involved in a mainstream Protestant religion, but I am.
I can tell you that David Koresh's Branch Davidians were a cult. They have about as much in common with the average believer in the Bible Belt as Madonna (the singer) and Judaism.

There may be some people who would heed such a call, if you can find a televangelist who'd spew that garbage, but they are on the (lunatic) fringe, IMHO.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Matthew+7%3A+15-23&version=NIV

Posting items of a religious nature is risky. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. So, I'm an idiot.:uhyeah:

Peace,
Melissa

Melissa, Thanks for your post.

I am an Athiest.
I was baptised, raise and confirmed in the Catholic Church. I served as an acolyte in my Church. Throughout my youth, I participated in the music ministry in our church, and was further involved in evangelical outreach. For several years, I was a regular attendee at the local 'Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship' meetings.

Do you think the followers of David Koresh thought they were members of a cult? Do you think the followers of Muqtada al Sadr think that they are members of a cult? I think the rift between 'believer' and 'true believer' is not as wide as you think.

I think back to the uproar about Judge Roy Moore's Rock. It was up front and in the news for months. Judge Moore was elected to serve as the Chair of the Alabama Supreme Court, presumably by the citizens of Alabama. His election occurred after he disobeyed the orders of Federal Circuit Judge to remove the plaque of the 10 Commandments from the walls of his courtroom. After this order was issued, the Governor of Alabama said he would be willing to "call out the State Police and to mobilize the National Guard, if necessary, to prevent anyone from attempting to remove the plaque."

I think that perhaps ... getting the good people of Alabama, who seem to willfully ignore the 1st Amendment to the Constitution, to rise up in defense of the 10 Commandments might not be that far of a stretch.

Anyhow ... I hope you are correct. I hope those are in the 'lunatic fringe'. I hope that I am wrong.

Mike

 

[Phoenix44]

Well, I think this country is more divided now than anything I've seen since the 60s. And yes, I think there could be some sort of a revolution, and I think the issue would be political abuse.

People are tired of reading about school board embezzlement, corporate criminals, and pension plan misuse. We're tired of rich people getting away with things that the rest of us would be in jail for. We're tired of our elected officials lying to us for the purpose of lining their own pockets. We're tired of people in power using our young people's lives for their own purposes, without ever sacrificing anything of their own. We're tired of people in power denying us the benefits of scientific research...until they realize it would benefit them. We're tired of the "news" media acting like the Jerry Springer show. We're tired of the fact that our politicians think they're entitled to better health care benefits than we are. We're tired of our politicians putting corporate profits above human needs.

I don't think that the results of the upcoming election would precipitate a revolution. But if it smells like the election is tainted again--people dropped from the roles, tampered voter registration forms, the Diebold machines which could just be the last straw, or even a megalomaniac President who refuses to leave the White House when he's voted out--then, yes, I believe this country could be torn apart.

 

[Flatlander]

or even a megalomaniac President who refuses to leave the White House when he's voted out--then, yes, I believe this country could be torn apart.

The fact that this is even considered possible by anyone, me included, disturbs me greatly. This is one of those things that only happens "back then" or "over there". Yikes.

 

[OULobo]

I don't think the country is ripe for a civil war. We are too bound in patriotism ala 9/11. I think if it is going to be an issue, I would agree with some of the views already posted, that it will be one of tyrannical control and loss of rights, something that will even further polarize the pop., this time to an extreme. The gun issue will be a sparkplug, because of the mentality of the pro-gun crowd (myself included), "cold dead hands". A motivated and moderately armed resistance can have a great impact on a modern fighting force. Look what is happening in Iraq right now. The biggest problem for a resistance in America would be the allocation of weapons that are easily obtained for the middle eastern countries where they are already saturated in small cheap weaponry. I don't see the south ceding because the idea of fundamentalism spans the country, it isn't located only in the south. It would be more of an "us vs them" war, not a north vs south war. I don't think the race card is too valid yet. Mainly because the numbers still aren't there and it isn't localized enough, unless it becomes everyone against WASPS. Scary stuff anyway.

 

[michaeledward]

This was posted on the 'Altercation' web site today. It is an email sent in to the author. I found it timely.

Name: Dave Kantor
Hometown: Cleveland, OH
Protesters on one side and the rest of us on the other -- this country needs another civil war to protect from trash like you and your friends at the nation.. I care about voters in Missouri and not about the human trash across this world (or in San Francisco). Let the war begin -- purify society with violent repudiation of Liberalism and all other forms of social engineering. Then America can be the great country it should be.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Yikes I live in Kansas!! Maaa!!! get the guns out we're going to have visitors!