A Rand Rant

[Xue Sheng]

The original post simply pointed out that many of Rand's beliefs were incompatible with right-wing populists who are largely Christian, otherwise known as the Tea Party.

Who apparently prefer to sit on teh right side of the room

 

[crushing]

Ah, thanks. I did misunderstand the OP. After re-reading in context of the responses I see that elder appears to be challenging the sterotype of Tea Partiers as the closed minded monolithic "fundamentalist Christian" group that they are being portrayed as in the media and by others. Heck, At least one has admitted to dabbling in witchcraft (O'Donnell, not Palin). This certainly fits in with other threads and replies that have done well to challenge thoughts that all Muslims are similarly fundamentalist.

And really, are the Tea Partiers really talking all that much about Rand and Objectivism? I know Libertarians tend to, but Tea Partiers? Rand seems more of the Cato Institute side of of 'conservativism', but not so much for the Heritage Foundation folks like the Tea Party.

 

[WC_lun]

I've tried to read Rand's stuff on a friend's suggestion, but to be honest I would fall asleep or be bored to tears. Add to the mix, I am not a fan of her ideas.

For myself, I have a belief system that is based primarily on compassion. Compassion for others and myself. If people determined thier action from a compassionate mind, both thier society and themselves benefit. Act from a selfish mind set and both degrade. While I think I understand her points, I do not agree with them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And really, are the Tea Partiers really talking all that much about Rand and Objectivism? I know Libertarians tend to, but Tea Partiers? Rand seems more of the Cato Institute side of of 'conservativism', but not so much for the Heritage Foundation folks like the Tea Party.

http://www.suntimes.com/entertainment/movies/4934946-421/right-wing-rallies-around-ayn-rand.html

With its celebration of individual achievement and condemnation of government meddling, the book became a bible for libertarians and, more recently, the Tea Party movement. Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), author of a recently unveiled, cost-slashing 2012 budget plan, encourages his staff to read Atlas Shrugged and once said, “The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand.”

Paul Ryan is a self-proclaimed Tea Party member.

 

[granfire]

Kind of like those peddlers of Jesus knick knacks and chotzkies...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

For myself, I have a belief system that is based primarily on compassion. Compassion for others and myself. If people determined thier action from a compassionate mind, both thier society and themselves benefit. Act from a selfish mind set and both degrade. While I think I understand her points, I do not agree with them.

That has long been a frustration of mine with regard to Rand. There's nothing wrong with compassion, and in my opinion, it is not incompatible with selfishness in the sense that Rand intended it - concern with the self as the primary responsibility of every person. It's purely practical; you cannot help anyone if you yourself are dead, incapacitated, or whatever. That's why they say to put on your oxygen mask first before helping others when they give they airplane safety lecture on planes before you push back from the gate.

As long as people continue to equate 'selfish' with 'I want what's mine and I want you not to have any', then they will disagree with Rand. The problem is, that's not what she said or meant.

Enlightened self-interest to me means that if I drop a coin into the beggar's cup, I do it because it is pleasing to me to do so, or because I feel I am doing myself a service by assisting someone to be less dependent upon government services. If I do so because I feel compelled to do so by a religious, moral, or even legal requirement, then there is no real value in it.

Rand dealt with some harsh realities - things people often understand and do, but don't like to think about or discuss.

 

[crushing]

http://www.suntimes.com/entertainment/movies/4934946-421/right-wing-rallies-around-ayn-rand.html


Paul Ryan is a self-proclaimed Tea Party member.

I can't help but laugh when the headline screams--
Right wing rallies around Ayn Rand

And this is supported in the article by the fact that one self-proclaimed Tea Party member encourages his staff to read Atlas Shrugged and credits Rand with the reason he got involved in politics.


Anyway, I think I've found the real reason people have recently started to get in this extra long book with simplistic characters and repeated cliches: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/09/807430/-Atlas-Chugged:-The-Ayn-Rand-Drinking-Game :lol:

 

[Xue Sheng]

I can't help but laugh when the headline screams--
Right wing rallies around Ayn Rand

And this is supported in the article by the fact that one self-proclaimed Tea Party member encourages his staff to read Atlas Shrugged and credits Rand with the reason he got involved in politics.


Anyway, I think I've found the real reason people have recently started to get in this extra long book with simplistic characters and repeated cliches: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/09/807430/-Atlas-Chugged:-The-Ayn-Rand-Drinking-Game :lol:

:hmm: So then they feel that Ayan Rand sits on the right side of the room too then..... interesting

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I can't help but laugh when the headline screams--
Right wing rallies around Ayn Rand

And this is supported in the article by the fact that one self-proclaimed Tea Party member encourages his staff to read Atlas Shrugged and credits Rand with the reason he got involved in politics.

http://www.libertasfilmmagazine.com...ssons-first-interview-about-the-film-part-ii/

http://coloradoindependent.com/23026/ayn-rand-stars-at-denver-stimulus-tea-party-protest

One hundred enthusiastic Atlas Shrugged fans braved chilly temperatures on the east steps of the Colorado capitol Friday as part of a nationwide “tea party” protest to rail against the federal stimulus package and the government, in general.
Beyond the typical conservative-Libertarian rhetoric was some practical advice on how to “shrug these parasites off our backs” like opening a black market in your own garage.

Jenny Hatch of Louisville kicked off the event with a reading from the fictional anti-government manifesto Atlas Shrugged by libertarian darling Ayn Rand.

Jenny Hatch of Louisville kicked off the event with a reading from the fictional anti-government manifesto Atlas Shrugged by libertarian darling Ayn Rand.

Over the weekend, I watched a CNN report on the Tea Party demonstration in Washington. Behind the reporter stood someone who carried a sign that read “Who is John Galt?” – a reference to Ayn Rand’s novel Atlas Shrugged. Rand, who was born in Russia but chose to become an American, wrote her book in the 1950s largely in response to Marxism. And she does an incredible job showing why Marxism ultimately does not work.

http://www.examiner.com/populist-in-national/ayn-rand-and-the-tea-party-movement

Ayn Rand and the tea party movement

• December 3rd, 2009 4:52 am ET

It's interesting to note that at some of the tea parties this past summer, there were signs reflecting back on Atlas Shrugged. Indicating that there were some "Randians" as they were called, marching in the crowds. Some of the signs referenced the great question that comes out of Atlas Shrugged, "Who is John Galt?" John Galt was the hero of Atlas Shrugged, the man who put together a hideaway in Colorado in which he invited people to come and stop producing for the state and come live in his paradise called Galt's Gulch.

http://blogs.forbes.com/dorothypome...ed-ranks-14th-consipracy-or-just-a-bad-movie/

Billed as the first Tea Party movie, Atlas Shrugged opened this weekend in 300 theaters. It earned only $1.6 million. That ranks the movie 14th for the weekend.

The film was heavily marketed to Tea Party members. According to a story in The Hollywood Reporter Freedom Works, an organization closely linked with the Tea Party, pushed the film to 1 million members. The film was also being promoted by right leaning talk show hosts like Neal Boortz who tweeted about the movie.

Hmmm. Maybe more than one guy.

 

[crushing]

Hmmm. Maybe more than one guy.

Yes, I don't think anyone would believe that it was just the one guy. You had to google and research to find this information that helped confirm for you that maybe there was actually something to that headline. A headline that was not at all supported in the content of the article.

You did the work the journalist failed to do. Actually, it was more likely the editor failed to create an adequate headline to represent the actual article. Maybe Ryan Cites Rand as Influence or Rand, Ryan's Inspiration would have been more honest to the article? Nah, they just don't have the emotional punch and click-thru opportunities that sensational headlines with words like "right-wing" and "rallies" have.

 

[elder999]

Somewhere there I wonder if she is autistic?
I don't mean this as insult, by all means.

But there is this communications gap as it seems.

I have a nephew-now my ward, and probably in need of some supervision for the rest of his life-who has Asperger's Syndrome.

There's a fair amount of speculation that Rand had Asperger's, so that's pretty astute of you there, Gran, and worth pointing out in light of this. The more intelligent of those who have Asperger's are often compared to Mr. Spock, or Vulcans in general.

Enlightened self-interest to me means that if I drop a coin into the beggar's cup, I do it because it is pleasing to me to do so, or because I feel I am doing myself a service by assisting someone to be less dependent upon government services. .

Ah, but Bill.....

Yesterday, glitching through the rot on television to kill a little time, I caught a bunch of people risking their lives to save a moose that had fallen through thin ice. We've all seen footage of people doing the same for dogs, other animals, and each other, under other life-threatening circumstances like fires and raging rapids-to waterfalls.
We're also all familiar with the stories-all true-of men in combat diving on grenades to save their fellow soldiers. I can't find it online, but there's a story that's floated around about a rabid racist-a Klan member-who was killed saving a black child from being hit by a truck.

We-that is to say, human beings-don't do these things because they make us feel good, though they may, or because they're in the best interests of society, though they be.

We do them because we must. Altruism is a fundamental part of human nature.....and one which psycopaths, the autistic, and those with Asperger's can lack. Given her hyper-rationality, and the possibility that she had Asperger's, or some other autistic spectrum "disorder," many odd things about her philosophy begin to make sense.

 

[Touch Of Death]

All she was saying in not to let our altruism guide us into irrational or self defeating positions.
Sean

 

[elder999]

All she was saying in not to let our altruism guide us into irrational or self defeating positions.
Sean

Tell that to the guy who sacrifices himself jumping on a grenade.

It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master-Ayn Rand

It's a good thing she didn't have any children.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Tell that to the guy who sacrifices himself jumping on a grenade.

That, my friend, is a rational decision. You may feel differently.
Sean

 

[elder999]

That, my friend, is a rational decision. You may feel differently.
Sean

No, it's not a rational decision; it's an altogether impulsive one.

 

[Touch Of Death]

No, it's not a rational decision; it's an altogether impulsive one.

Let's see, you decide we all die or I save my men by jumping on the grenade. That is called doing the math. You can call it what you like, but its rational. Again this is a personal thing that has nothing to do with Ayn Rand. Its a way for you to be somehow correct.
Sean

 

[granfire]

Let's see, you decide we all die or I save my men by jumping on the grenade. That is called doing the math. You can call it what you like, but its rational. Again this is a personal thing that has nothing to do with Ayn Rand. Its a way for you to be somehow correct.
Sean

LOL, if it was rational you'd run for cover.

I think what this is pointing to is the question of 'what's in it for me'
Obviously, you throw yourself on a grenade, not a whole lot, since you can't count on it being a dud and you getting to actually hold the Congressional Medal of Honor...

I don't think there is a lot of thought involved.

However, there is that lack of emotion involved in the idea to avoid altruism.
If you don't get a tangible return from it, if you lack the ability to feel emotions, it's for nothing, so you are out the whatever you gave, no return, unlike most people who get a good feeling for themselves from giving, which is for them beneficial.

To take it back to autism, I have talked to a couple of people with this condition (to put it most neutral) and they seem to have great difficulty to reconcile the emotional aspects of their environment and their actions. They simply could not muster the empathy needed to put themselves in someone else's shoes.

I can see where this different outlook on life can advance the thinking on a matter (Temple Grandin is probably right now one of the most high profile Autistics, but a leading capacity in her field of study about animal welfare in the slaughter industry) and I can see where a more 'objective' point of view can advance social thinking.

But I think that is somewhat unique and hard to duplicate for the average person who is in general highly emotional.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don’t think it is rational, heroic, altruistic, selfless, possibly crazy but not rational.

That is saying that someone first had time to rationalize the act of jumping on a grenade to save others and being in full possession of one's reason also know as sane and or lucid deciding to die (kill themselves) in order to save the lives of others.

I do not think in that situation anyone would have time to rationalize it, just respond to it much like a reflex action. If you hit me in the knee, in the right place, my knee will jump. It is not rationalized it is just a reflex

 

[crushing]

Let's see, you decide we all die or I save my men by jumping on the grenade. That is called doing the math. You can call it what you like, but its rational. Again this is a personal thing that has nothing to do with Ayn Rand. Its a way for you to be somehow correct.
Sean

Nope. You don't think like us so, like Rand, your brain must not be wired quite right. Have you been checked by a doctor?

 

[aedrasteia]

Anyway, I think I've found the real reason people have recently started to get in this extra long book with simplistic characters and repeated cliches: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/09/807430/-Atlas-Chugged:-The-Ayn-Rand-Drinking-Game :lol:

Oh Chrush many thanks - and thanks again - giggling on every line.

the movie seems to be a mistake. I've always thought it would make a much better graphic novel - with some intense editing, but her Super Heros and wormy villans fit that format - and the 'ordinary people' can form the fuzzy background. No ridicule meant - graphic novels can be exceptionally powerful.

reviews (2, one on substance, the other on AR's style) by the self described libertarian who designed the drinking game, are among the best I've read anywhere - well thought out and well written, fair, based on actual reading and thinking and funny - he is spot on.
A Libertarian Reads "Atlas Shrugged" -www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/8/811778/-A-Libertarian-Reads-Atlas-ShruggedPart-2


Last year i read both AR biographies and I encourage anyone interested in her to read them. They are jointly reviewed here: www.slate.com/id/2233966/
How Ayn Rand Became an American Icon The perverse allure of a damaged woman. By Johann Hari Nov. 2, 2009

Of all I've read, her relationship with her husband Frank O'Connor holds my attention - very handsome/striking, a small part actor she met in Hollywood, later to become a painter/artist (not especially well received) with a spirit responsive to color, beauty, the natural world. Not remotely her intellectual equal, tho she made herself believe her was, because that was her criteria, he seems to have loved and supported her steadfastly, and was devestated by her long relationship with her much younger disciple, Nathaniel Brandon; one that became secret from her supporters when it became sexual. O'Connor was described as 'agreeing' to that affair, along with Brandon's wife. But the evidence doesn't support that claim.

But both biographers describe his depression and heavy drinking during the times when he was asked to vacate his apartment when Brandon and Rand were together. SHe considered cognition and thinking a matter of will and commitment: Frank's confusion and mental problems baffled and irritated her as he later experienced senility, possible Alzheimers and the effects of heavy drinking. I think she loved him, as much as she was able, sadly so self deluded about him. Strangely i've come to think of her as a deeply self-deluded ideolgue, as unable to face real human complexity as the other deluded ideolgues and determinists she so strongly (and correctly) opposed.

thanks again Crush,
A