A Rand Rant
- Thread starter elder999
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Ah, thanks. I did misunderstand the OP. After re-reading in context of the responses I see that elder appears to be challenging the sterotype of Tea Partiers as the closed minded monolithic "fundamentalist Christian" group that they are being portrayed as in the media and by others. Heck, At least one has admitted to dabbling in witchcraft (O'Donnell, not Palin). This certainly fits in with other threads and replies that have done well to challenge thoughts that all Muslims are similarly fundamentalist.
And really, are the Tea Partiers really talking all that much about Rand and Objectivism? I know Libertarians tend to, but Tea Partiers? Rand seems more of the Cato Institute side of of 'conservativism', but not so much for the Heritage Foundation folks like the Tea Party.
And really, are the Tea Partiers really talking all that much about Rand and Objectivism? I know Libertarians tend to, but Tea Partiers? Rand seems more of the Cato Institute side of of 'conservativism', but not so much for the Heritage Foundation folks like the Tea Party.
WC_lun
Senior Master
I've tried to read Rand's stuff on a friend's suggestion, but to be honest I would fall asleep or be bored to tears. Add to the mix, I am not a fan of her ideas.
For myself, I have a belief system that is based primarily on compassion. Compassion for others and myself. If people determined thier action from a compassionate mind, both thier society and themselves benefit. Act from a selfish mind set and both degrade. While I think I understand her points, I do not agree with them.
For myself, I have a belief system that is based primarily on compassion. Compassion for others and myself. If people determined thier action from a compassionate mind, both thier society and themselves benefit. Act from a selfish mind set and both degrade. While I think I understand her points, I do not agree with them.
http://www.suntimes.com/entertainment/movies/4934946-421/right-wing-rallies-around-ayn-rand.html
Paul Ryan is a self-proclaimed Tea Party member.
That has long been a frustration of mine with regard to Rand. There's nothing wrong with compassion, and in my opinion, it is not incompatible with selfishness in the sense that Rand intended it - concern with the self as the primary responsibility of every person. It's purely practical; you cannot help anyone if you yourself are dead, incapacitated, or whatever. That's why they say to put on your oxygen mask first before helping others when they give they airplane safety lecture on planes before you push back from the gate.
As long as people continue to equate 'selfish' with 'I want what's mine and I want you not to have any', then they will disagree with Rand. The problem is, that's not what she said or meant.
Enlightened self-interest to me means that if I drop a coin into the beggar's cup, I do it because it is pleasing to me to do so, or because I feel I am doing myself a service by assisting someone to be less dependent upon government services. If I do so because I feel compelled to do so by a religious, moral, or even legal requirement, then there is no real value in it.
Rand dealt with some harsh realities - things people often understand and do, but don't like to think about or discuss.
I can't help but laugh when the headline screams--
Right wing rallies around Ayn Rand
And this is supported in the article by the fact that one self-proclaimed Tea Party member encourages his staff to read Atlas Shrugged and credits Rand with the reason he got involved in politics.
Anyway, I think I've found the real reason people have recently started to get in this extra long book with simplistic characters and repeated cliches: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/09/807430/-Atlas-Chugged:-The-Ayn-Rand-Drinking-Game :lol:
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
:hmm: So then they feel that Ayan Rand sits on the right side of the room too then..... interesting
http://www.libertasfilmmagazine.com...ssons-first-interview-about-the-film-part-ii/
http://coloradoindependent.com/23026/ayn-rand-stars-at-denver-stimulus-tea-party-protest
Jenny Hatch of Louisville kicked off the event with a reading from the fictional anti-government manifesto Atlas Shrugged by libertarian darling Ayn Rand.
http://www.examiner.com/populist-in-national/ayn-rand-and-the-tea-party-movement
http://blogs.forbes.com/dorothypome...ed-ranks-14th-consipracy-or-just-a-bad-movie/
Hmmm. Maybe more than one guy.
Yes, I don't think anyone would believe that it was just the one guy. You had to google and research to find this information that helped confirm for you that maybe there was actually something to that headline. A headline that was not at all supported in the content of the article.
You did the work the journalist failed to do. Actually, it was more likely the editor failed to create an adequate headline to represent the actual article. Maybe Ryan Cites Rand as Influence or Rand, Ryan's Inspiration would have been more honest to the article? Nah, they just don't have the emotional punch and click-thru opportunities that sensational headlines with words like "right-wing" and "rallies" have.
OP
OP
I have a nephew-now my ward, and probably in need of some supervision for the rest of his life-who has Asperger's Syndrome.
There's a fair amount of speculation that Rand had Asperger's, so that's pretty astute of you there, Gran, and worth pointing out in light of this. The more intelligent of those who have Asperger's are often compared to Mr. Spock, or Vulcans in general.
Ah, but Bill.....
Yesterday, glitching through the rot on television to kill a little time, I caught a bunch of people risking their lives to save a moose that had fallen through thin ice. We've all seen footage of people doing the same for dogs, other animals, and each other, under other life-threatening circumstances like fires and raging rapids-to waterfalls.
We're also all familiar with the stories-all true-of men in combat diving on grenades to save their fellow soldiers. I can't find it online, but there's a story that's floated around about a rabid racist-a Klan member-who was killed saving a black child from being hit by a truck.
We-that is to say, human beings-don't do these things because they make us feel good, though they may, or because they're in the best interests of society, though they be.
We do them because we must. Altruism is a fundamental part of human nature.....and one which psycopaths, the autistic, and those with Asperger's can lack. Given her hyper-rationality, and the possibility that she had Asperger's, or some other autistic spectrum "disorder," many odd things about her philosophy begin to make sense.
All she was saying in not to let our altruism guide us into irrational or self defeating positions.
Sean
Sean
OP
OP
Tell that to the guy who sacrifices himself jumping on a grenade.
It's a good thing she didn't have any children.
OP
OP
That, my friend, is a rational decision. You may feel differently.
Sean
No, it's not a rational decision; it's an altogether impulsive one.
Let's see, you decide we all die or I save my men by jumping on the grenade. That is called doing the math. You can call it what you like, but its rational. Again this is a personal thing that has nothing to do with Ayn Rand. Its a way for you to be somehow correct.
Sean
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
LOL, if it was rational you'd run for cover.
I think what this is pointing to is the question of 'what's in it for me'
Obviously, you throw yourself on a grenade, not a whole lot, since you can't count on it being a dud and you getting to actually hold the Congressional Medal of Honor...
I don't think there is a lot of thought involved.
However, there is that lack of emotion involved in the idea to avoid altruism.
If you don't get a tangible return from it, if you lack the ability to feel emotions, it's for nothing, so you are out the whatever you gave, no return, unlike most people who get a good feeling for themselves from giving, which is for them beneficial.
To take it back to autism, I have talked to a couple of people with this condition (to put it most neutral) and they seem to have great difficulty to reconcile the emotional aspects of their environment and their actions. They simply could not muster the empathy needed to put themselves in someone else's shoes.
I can see where this different outlook on life can advance the thinking on a matter (Temple Grandin is probably right now one of the most high profile Autistics, but a leading capacity in her field of study about animal welfare in the slaughter industry) and I can see where a more 'objective' point of view can advance social thinking.
But I think that is somewhat unique and hard to duplicate for the average person who is in general highly emotional.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I don’t think it is rational, heroic, altruistic, selfless, possibly crazy but not rational.
That is saying that someone first had time to rationalize the act of jumping on a grenade to save others and being in full possession of one's reason also know as sane and or lucid deciding to die (kill themselves) in order to save the lives of others.
I do not think in that situation anyone would have time to rationalize it, just respond to it much like a reflex action. If you hit me in the knee, in the right place, my knee will jump. It is not rationalized it is just a reflex
That is saying that someone first had time to rationalize the act of jumping on a grenade to save others and being in full possession of one's reason also know as sane and or lucid deciding to die (kill themselves) in order to save the lives of others.
I do not think in that situation anyone would have time to rationalize it, just respond to it much like a reflex action. If you hit me in the knee, in the right place, my knee will jump. It is not rationalized it is just a reflex
Nope. You don't think like us so, like Rand, your brain must not be wired quite right. Have you been checked by a doctor?
aedrasteia
Purple Belt
Oh Chrush many thanks - and thanks again - giggling on every line.
the movie seems to be a mistake. I've always thought it would make a much better graphic novel - with some intense editing, but her Super Heros and wormy villans fit that format - and the 'ordinary people' can form the fuzzy background. No ridicule meant - graphic novels can be exceptionally powerful.
reviews (2, one on substance, the other on AR's style) by the self described libertarian who designed the drinking game, are among the best I've read anywhere - well thought out and well written, fair, based on actual reading and thinking and funny - he is spot on.
A Libertarian Reads "Atlas Shrugged" -www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/8/811778/-A-Libertarian-Reads-Atlas-ShruggedPart-2
Last year i read both AR biographies and I encourage anyone interested in her to read them. They are jointly reviewed here: www.slate.com/id/2233966/
How Ayn Rand Became an American Icon The perverse allure of a damaged woman. By Johann Hari Nov. 2, 2009
Of all I've read, her relationship with her husband Frank O'Connor holds my attention - very handsome/striking, a small part actor she met in Hollywood, later to become a painter/artist (not especially well received) with a spirit responsive to color, beauty, the natural world. Not remotely her intellectual equal, tho she made herself believe her was, because that was her criteria, he seems to have loved and supported her steadfastly, and was devestated by her long relationship with her much younger disciple, Nathaniel Brandon; one that became secret from her supporters when it became sexual. O'Connor was described as 'agreeing' to that affair, along with Brandon's wife. But the evidence doesn't support that claim.
But both biographers describe his depression and heavy drinking during the times when he was asked to vacate his apartment when Brandon and Rand were together. SHe considered cognition and thinking a matter of will and commitment: Frank's confusion and mental problems baffled and irritated her as he later experienced senility, possible Alzheimers and the effects of heavy drinking. I think she loved him, as much as she was able, sadly so self deluded about him. Strangely i've come to think of her as a deeply self-deluded ideolgue, as unable to face real human complexity as the other deluded ideolgues and determinists she so strongly (and correctly) opposed.
thanks again Crush,
A
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