A Question for Atheists

[Jenna]

Is it really that hard to believe one thing without slighting another? Or do people have to think that their belief is the only one with any merit?

My point in a nutshell, thank you

 

[Jenna]

This thread has given me much food for thought, from both sides, although I don't like the distinction of "taking sides". After spending much time reading the well thought out posts, I must admit, they are very compelling. Perhaps taking my faith for granted for many years, and passing off atheists, as people that will come around some day, before it is to late, I feel now, it has been childishness thinking on my part. As I read each post I was compelled to jump in, but there was a feeling within me to ponder and consider deeply, and try to see everyones view point. I don't believe there is some miraculous instant conversion that takes place, and God points a finger and all is complete, by no means, but on the same token, I don't discount it either. What I do feel is that there are two types of knowledge. (1) There is public knowledge which you get from using your head and your intellect. You listen with your head and learn with your head. There is nothing wrong with it. Modern civilization could not function without the fruits of public knowledge. But it is limited, and not everybody in the world can access public knowledge. Many don't know the three basics of reading, writing and arithmetic. It goes without saying that without public knowledge you can't begin to know the world around you, and it tells you about the material world. (2) There is universal knowledge, the personal, private knowledge that is within our inner self. It is a feeling knowledge, that transcends cultural backgrounds and foreign languish. Love, pain, anger, caring, understanding, all reside within peoples from all over the world. This universal knowledge comes from the heart and could be called feeling or heart knowledge, if you will. Trying to explain this inner knowledge is difficult because of it's nature. Through Christianity, it is my understanding, that this is where God resides, functions and deals with all people. It is the heart that God reads when considering ones motives, which in turn can be hidden from people to people and is, everyday. I do hope I have explained myself in a way that will not come off as being condescending because this is not my intent. I merely felt compelled to add my 2 cents and I do hope you realize it is coming from the heart.

As you indicate, I agree, I think it is prudent to keep the mind open my friend. And by the same token I think it is equally prudent to keep the heart open also.

I think this thread is divergent, however I am more than happy for that as I have learned much and I asked the question in the form I did simply to try to discern those atheists who have the capacity to take in an opposing view to theirs. Unfortunataly there are a number of atheists who - because they regard the idea of theism as having no credibility, also regard theists the same way. Unfortunately the same mindset of admonition and forms of coercion exist among theists for whom it is "my way or the highway".

Those who have put their points here have shown that there is room for useful discussion when that mindset is not adopted.

Regarding your point in making a distinction between types of knowledge, I find that interesting too. I would like to attempt to tag something onto your distinctions if I might? I think between, personal, experiential knowledge and the knowledge of scientific fact, I think the key in all things is balance. Were we to base our worldview completely (or even mostly) on knowledge of ONE TYPE ONLY then I think by closing our lives to the other type of knowledge we are deliberately making ourselves ignorant. I think there are illustrations of this type of reliance on one kind of knowledge everywhere.

One can live life neither in a realm of 100% subjectivity nor in the other of 100% objectivity. I think openness to the types of knowledge you have categorised is essential to live in any kind of informed state.

That though is my opinion. Again, I very much value yours. Thank you kindly for your contribution.

 

[Steve]

Is it really that hard to believe one thing without slighting another? Or do people have to think that their belief is the only one with any merit?

If this is the question, then yes. There is a place for theism.

I just posted something similar over in the screwing with christians thread. In my opinion, it's about insecurity. People being unsure about their own beliefs, and seeing contrary beliefs as a challenge. It doesn't have to be this way. There's room for diverse opinions and beliefs, IMO.

 

[ETinCYQX]

If this is the question, then yes. There is a place for theism. I just posted something similar over in the screwing with christians thread. In my opinion, it's about insecurity. People being unsure about their own beliefs, and seeing contrary beliefs as a challenge. It doesn't have to be this way. There's room for diverse opinions and beliefs, IMO.

Exactly. It's pretty close to parallel to the people who get offended and angry over criticisms of their specific MA style.

 

[Makalakumu]

No, of course I do not mean for a second that you yourself lack emotion or compassion, rather that atheism as a worldview relies upon the necessarily dispassionate world of science and fact for validation. I would suggest that perhaps there is another way to perceive your youthful disconnect from God or faith. I wonder could it be looked upon that at a young age, rather than not feeling an emotional connection and not feeling that spiritual conviction, did you have cause to close your mind a little to the idea of God. If this becomes your worldview at a young age, then you have had ample time through adulthood to match your experiences to your prevailing ideas. Naturally we all do this I think. Perhaps the faithful are more "guilty" of it than atheists. Nevertheless, in seeking validation for our views, we find evidence everywhere in teh most trivial things and ignore glaringly pertinent evidence in other places.

Again, all I would do is encourage you to keep your mind and senses open.

All truth comes from honest enquiry.

Thank you kindly for your reply.

If the gods appear to me in some form that can be explained no other way, I would instantly change my tune. Until then, this is where I'm at...for now.

I've learned to be very careful about pulling together disparate pieces of information and schlacking together an explanation based off of my intuitive feelings. For me, perception has been a matter of identifying my own bias and then trying to see beyond that lens. I've met very few theists who will even attempt this. I feel that they take for granted that their beliefs are true and that there is nothing to question. And when they do question, many do it privately, with a lot of shame and guilt. I have a lot of empathy for this and I wish people would talk openly about it. It's not a sign of weakness.

The enormous horizontal pressure we exert on our fellow human beings is cruel to critical thought.

 

[Jenna]

If this is the question, then yes. There is a place for theism.

I just posted something similar over in the screwing with christians thread. In my opinion, it's about insecurity. People being unsure about their own beliefs, and seeing contrary beliefs as a challenge. It doesn't have to be this way. There's room for diverse opinions and beliefs, IMO.

That is a good point Steve.

I think the reason that opposing beliefs and worldviews are seen as challenging to many is that they have their whole entire lives bound up and invested into their own particular version of the world.

I think it is understandable that folk get more than a little upset when their views on atheism or theism are questioned.

It is plainly no simple thing to hear someone outline with fervour that your whole way of life is actually absurd. It is even more difficult to have them attempt (in the height of your chagrin over your wasted life) to coerce you into following their path. This applies on either side of this discussion.

 

[Jenna]

If the gods appear to me in some form that can be explained no other way, I would instantly change my tune. Until then, this is where I'm at...for now.

I've learned to be very careful about pulling together disparate pieces of information and schlacking together an explanation based off of my intuitive feelings. For me, perception has been a matter of identifying my own bias and then trying to see beyond that lens. I've met very few theists who will even attempt this. I feel that they take for granted that their beliefs are true and that there is nothing to question. And when they do question, many do it privately, with a lot of shame and guilt. I have a lot of empathy for this and I wish people would talk openly about it. It's not a sign of weakness.

The enormous horizontal pressure we exert on our fellow human beings is cruel to critical thought.

The influence of one's peers is often too compelling to resist. I think when you mention shame and guilt, that is a horrible situation to be in. I never understand why those in situations regard their situation as taboo where it affects their well-being. That faith is a private thing is fair enough and but to me my faith is something that I endeavour to be open about. I think this highlights for me the same issue again, that faith and religion are not the same thing. I think to stifle crimes perpetrated under the cloak of religion for the sake of some holy empire is horrendous. I think that religion is the vehicle of men for the aims of men. I think, while there is an inextricable tie, faith in God is something altogether distinct from the religious means to express that faith.

All religions could die tomorrow (and I am sorry to say, I would not be sad for it) and many minions and acolytes would lose a crutch and others would lose cash-making economic opportunities and others still would lose that cloak for their crimes and others would lose their weapons of cruelty to fellow citizens.

I believe that the true faithful would still have their faith.

I think your point is as ever wholly pertinent yes and I value your input greatly thank you.

 

[Nomad]

As you indicate, I agree, I think it is prudent to keep the mind open my friend. And by the same token I think it is equally prudent to keep the heart open also.

I think this thread is divergent, however I am more than happy for that as I have learned much and I asked the question in the form I did simply to try to discern those atheists who have the capacity to take in an opposing view to theirs. Unfortunataly there are a number of atheists who - because they regard the idea of theism as having no credibility, also regard theists the same way. Unfortunately the same mindset of admonition and forms of coercion exist among theists for whom it is "my way or the highway".

Those who have put their points here have shown that there is room for useful discussion when that mindset is not adopted.

Although my children have obviously been influenced by my beliefs (for instance, we don't go to church on Sundays, which is definitely an influence... in either direction), I would not be upset at all if my girls were to find faith and belief in their journeys to adulthood and maturity, and have encouraged them to at least know what is taught by different religions.

The same cannot be said of many people of strong religious conviction, since if their kids decided not to believe in God, that necessarily damns them to Hell. I've had other children tell my kids that they can't play with them anymore if they don't believe in God, which I find a very sad statement on accepting and tolerating others, which was obviously passed on by these kids' parents.

I also think I'd be more open to them finding a different faith than many believers since we don't have as much religious baggage; unlike those raised as devout Catholics for instance, I see no distinction between Catholicism & Protestantism (or Baptist, or Jewish, or Wiccan for that matter). I would be concerned that they embrace faith for the right reasons (for instance, simple rebellion against their Dad because they think I'd be offended would not be a good reason, in my opinion )

For me, one of the benefits of not being religiously inclined is that I am free to make up my own mind about many topics in which religion frequently attempts to meddle, and I can do so on the simple basis of what I believe is right and wrong, regardless of what some ancient authority figure who claims to talk directly with God tells me.

As someone with fairly strong opinions on many topics (in case you hadn't noticed), I tend to view such diverse topics as contraception, gay marriage, suicide, abortion, and so on without the religious lenses that often play across such debates. Note that this doesn't necessarily equate to any claim of "seeing more clearly"; we all have our own perceptual distortions based on our experiences and personal beliefs. I try to look at many of these issues in terms of the direct human cost and benefit by pain caused or evaded (not that this makes many of these issues black and white, but it may remove a layer of additional complexity).

Of course, the entire lesson of the Bible: Part II (New Testament) is to love your neighbor, and not to judge him (Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, to paraphrase). Unfortunately for all, that lesson is too often eclipsed or ignored in favor of pursuing petty differences in doctrine or pointing the finger to say why this group or that is so wrong (by both the religious and areligious types, but to give the latter some credit, that's not in their​ book ).

 

[Jenna]

Although my children have obviously been influenced by my beliefs (for instance, we don't go to church on Sundays, which is definitely an influence... in either direction), I would not be upset at all if my girls were to find faith and belief in their journeys to adulthood and maturity, and have encouraged them to at least know what is taught by different religions.

The same cannot be said of many people of strong religious conviction, since if their kids decided not to believe in God, that necessarily damns them to Hell. I've had other children tell my kids that they can't play with them anymore if they don't believe in God, which I find a very sad statement on accepting and tolerating others, which was obviously passed on by these kids' parents.

I also think I'd be more open to them finding a different faith than many believers since we don't have as much religious baggage; unlike those raised as devout Catholics for instance, I see no distinction between Catholicism & Protestantism (or Baptist, or Jewish, or Wiccan for that matter). I would be concerned that they embrace faith for the right reasons (for instance, simple rebellion against their Dad because they think I'd be offended would not be a good reason, in my opinion )

For me, one of the benefits of not being religiously inclined is that I am free to make up my own mind about many topics in which religion frequently attempts to meddle, and I can do so on the simple basis of what I believe is right and wrong, regardless of what some ancient authority figure who claims to talk directly with God tells me.

As someone with fairly strong opinions on many topics (in case you hadn't noticed), I tend to view such diverse topics as contraception, gay marriage, suicide, abortion, and so on without the religious lenses that often play across such debates. Note that this doesn't necessarily equate to any claim of "seeing more clearly"; we all have our own perceptual distortions based on our experiences and personal beliefs. I try to look at many of these issues in terms of the direct human cost and benefit by pain caused or evaded (not that this makes many of these issues black and white, but it may remove a layer of additional complexity).

Of course, the entire lesson of the Bible: Part II (New Testament) is to love your neighbor, and not to judge him (Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, to paraphrase). Unfortunately for all, that lesson is too often eclipsed or ignored in favor of pursuing petty differences in doctrine or pointing the finger to say why this group or that is so wrong (by both the religious and areligious types, but to give the latter some credit, that's not in their​ book ).

What can I say besides what a concise post that is. I like your idea of "religious lenses". I can do nothing but agree to the idea that too often the lens of religion does not encourage compassion and empathy for those looking through it and but rather seems to distort their perceptions and encourage bigotry, hatred, cruelty and thorough dogmatism.

I find it disturbing that the thing that turns many who are open to the idea away from theism is primarily the abhorrent, immoral and often criminal acts of those purporting to represent compassionate and tolerant theism in all its variant forms. That saddens me to my core. I am sorry that you, like many are affected by the wrongs of religion. I would laud your openness and fairness with your daughters I have had similar experiences with my boy too. I think as parents we do what is best for our children as we see it. I think, even if we are dogmatic in our views, it remains incumbent upon us to encourage inquisitive pragmatism in our children if we are in any way to regard ourselves as worthy parents at all.

Again, thank you for putting across your point of view so clearly. It is very interesting and important for me to understand and appreciate. Thank you.