An Atheist Defends Religion

[celtic_crippler]

Religion doesn't make sense to me either.

I'm having myself ordained a minister online by the by.

Why not? It's easy... I bet you all didn't know I was an ordained minister did you?

And from my point of view, since the history of humanity *is* the history of religion, if you ask if religion has done more harm than good, the real question is whether or not man has done more harm than good. Religion is intrinsic in man's history. It's like saying has the earth done more harm than good? How could we know - it's all we've ever lived on.

"Man" is influenced by a great many things. The question is what impact a specific thing has had on "man" and his world.

Weapons have been an "intrinsic" part of our history as well as food and other things.

If we continue to eat the garbage we're eating we'll likely all become extinct. So do you change your eating habits or die?

We have nukes instead of slings, do you drop a nuke every time you feel like it? No, because it's not conducive to the perpetuation of our species.

I guess I just don't see your point here.

Agreed, but I find it unfortunate that religion is pitted against science and vice versa. Lots of people believe in Darwin and sit in church pews each Sunday. One doesn't have to cancel the other out.

I don't dispute religion because of a handful of Christians who think the world is six thousand years old; I dispute religion because it doesn't hold any meaning for me. Just because it doesn't hold any meaning for me doesn't mean it shouldn't for someone else.

And this is where I'm wary of some of the new agnosticism and atheism. I can be a non-believer all myself. I don't need a club to join. People find their own beliefs validated by getting others on side.

Don't confuse religion with spirituality.

...and no, I don not belong to any clubs...except for martial arts. LOL

 

[Omar B]

An Athiest Minister eh? I can hear it now

"Dear nothing, do nothing to this food we are about to eat, and thanks to the cow we killed and the farmer who grew these potatoes. The End."

It's Dear Superman dude.

And from my point of view, since the history of humanity *is* the history of religion, if you ask if religion has done more harm than good, the real question is whether or not man has done more harm than good. Religion is intrinsic in man's history. It's like saying has the earth done more harm than good? How could we know - it's all we've ever lived on.

I see what you are saying, but that history tied to religion usually reflects upon the worst aspects of human nature. From the crusades to kill or convert the natives, to the inquisition to make sure everyone within your borders was christian or dead, to even the Renaissance that you brought up where progress was made because people could study more than just religion (as opposed to the dark ages just before it). Religion and history has been tied together, but it was never a happy marriage.

 

[Cryozombie]

It's Dear Superman dude.

Nah, That doesnt work. If you are praying to somthing or someone, you are no longer an athiest. Even Levay, despite the name "Satanism" had people basically worshipping themselves... or maybe the Human Condition, depending what part of his books you were reading... and that prevents you from believing in nothing. Or somthing. Its late, Im tired, and I know what I mean, but I dont think Im articulating it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Religion and history has been tied together, but it was never a happy marriage.

It got us here. Good and bad together.

 

[celtic_crippler]

It got us here. Good and bad together.

That, and a million other things.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That, and a million other things.

Sure! That's why I say it's pretty much inseparable from us. We are, for good and bad, a product of our historical experiences.

 

[Omar B]

It got us here. Good and bad together.

Wheels, fire, penicillin, bricks.

 

[Omar B]

Nah, That doesnt work. If you are praying to somthing or someone, you are no longer an athiest. Even Levay, despite the name "Satanism" had people basically worshipping themselves... or maybe the Human Condition, depending what part of his books you were reading... and that prevents you from believing in nothing. Or somthing. Its late, Im tired, and I know what I mean, but I dont think Im articulating it.

I'm not praying to Superman! I'm using a fictional character there because he carries as much weight as any other religious figure to me, non. You could substitute him for Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Luke Skywalker ... it's all the same ridiculous stuff.

Yes, I know what Satanism is, I have several friends who are. Heck, I went to the Satanist family picnic this summer.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Wheels, fire, penicillin, bricks.

All products of cultures inextricably linked to religions. That's the point.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I have a huge project due in 12 hours I’ve barely started, I can’t believe that I’m wading in here…..

Imagination and superstition has been with us since that first conscious neuron fired up in the original Homo Sapiens head. Hell we were in the middle of the food chain, not a good position to be in. We had nothing but the most rudimentary science, smack flint with this stone and you get a sharp edge, do this and you can make fire, pee on an animal hide and it doesn’t rot. You know basic ****.

We felt a need to make sense of the world around us, we traded with neighbours, we killed our neighbours, we lost our loved ones to disease and violence, we told stories around the fire, we came to unwritten social agreements of how to act in our groups so as not to piss everyone off, everyone was valued, but some were more valued then others. Warriors, story tellers, healers, hunters, eventually the stories we told became truths, that were passed down millennium, upon millennium.

Countless religions and thousands of deities came from these stories. You’re tribe or family group has grown too big? Well XYZ says you are special and these people over here are not, go kill them and take their land.

Our morality, our social contract with our primate selves gave rise to our religious morality, all the great apes have a form of troop morality, it’s a social contract for living reasonably peacefully with each other. We are not special. We gave religion its morality, it did not give it to us.

Religion has been an instrument of great violence, and social control of the masses. That being said religion has also contributed greatly to education, social welfare and charity.

We are now at the point were science can answer many of the questions our ancestors had. The answer “that’s the Gods will” doesn’t hold water anymore. Which God? Of the thousands of Gods that man has created, why is the Judeao Christian God the correct and true God?

You can do good works, you can help the world without religion. You can build wells, and homes in the 3rd world without believing in or being influenced by a “god”.

Those that do good works because they want to go to heaven or are afraid of god watching them saddens me. You should help others because it is the right thing to do, not because you fear retribution.

Regardless of what you believe, keep it to yourself. Each side views the other as “children” with naive thoughts, and if only you will accept god or atheism you’ll understand.

I love talking on MT about this stuff, Bill and some others make great arguments, I disagree with them, but they are articulate and thoughtful. My side has the same. Then both sides have some nut bars.

 

[Omar B]

To a theist everything is linked to religion, you may see everything as some result of the work of god, gods or church, doesn't mean it's so. Hell, Ive heard theists claim science and art.

And we can be pretty sure fire's not a result of religion since it's been around since before the written word or even humans. Flint axes and bows (our first invention) I'm pretty sure were not the results of god or prayer either, no matter how furiously the praying may have been.

 

[Xinglu]

All products of cultures inextricably linked to religions. That's the point.

However, there is no way to reasonably argue that religion brought us those things.

 

[celtic_crippler]

All products of cultures inextricably linked to religions. That's the point.

That's a bold statement. Even though it's wrong, I'd love to here the reasoning behind it with some specific examples...

...say... like how toothpaste is inextricably linked to religion, or kitty litter maybe.

 

[Omar B]

That's a bold statement. Even though it's wrong, I'd love to here the reasoning behind it with some specific examples...

...say... like how toothpaste is inextricably linked to religion, or kitty litter maybe.

Come on man! We all know that the kitties were crapping in the rectory so the priests prayed for kitty litter, then there was a poof and the monks ran outside to see what was the matter and they saw the sand that was there the whole time. See, he does provide ... even if it's been there the whole time.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Come on man! We all know that the kitties were crapping in the rectory so the priests prayed for kitty litter, then there was a poof and the monks ran outside to see what was the matter and they saw the sand that was there the whole time. See, he does provide ... even if it's been there the whole time.

For some reason I was reminded of THIS.

 

[Omar B]

Gotta love the Pythons. Have you seen those round table discussions with Cleese and those priests around the release of The Life Of Brian? Hilarious.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That's a bold statement. Even though it's wrong, I'd love to here the reasoning behind it with some specific examples...

...say... like how toothpaste is inextricably linked to religion, or kitty litter maybe.

I think we're not understanding each other here. I'm certainly not going to posit that God created fire or the wheel, or that religion invented toothpaste. I hope I didn't give that impression.

What I mean is that the history of humankind is inextricably intertwined with religion. Until very recent times (roughly The Enlightenment onwards), most cultures were either based on religion or featured an official or unofficial religious core. From stone-age man who we know fashioned and worshiped idols up to very nearly the modern day, most people who lived had religion in their environment, affecting them in their daily lives. Even those who might have been atheists in their day could hardly avoid being affected by the religious aspects of the culture they lived in.

We remain affected by that historical tradition, in big ways and small. Much of our cultural debate over issues like abortion and stem cell research are religiously-based arguments - at least on one side of the debate. We have holidays such as Christmas and Easter and so on that may have become essentially non-religious, but which can hardly be separated from their religious connotations.

I am not claiming they are right or wrong. I am not arguing the side of religion. I am noting that in every age, mankind has lived in religious culture, either overtly or more subtly, but always present, always influencing the culture. One may not agree with the religious argument against abortion, for example, but one cannot deny that it shapes the debate.

Religion impacts everyone. It has since the dawn of time for man, as far as I know. That may change in time, I have no idea.

However, my basic point is that arguing that religion has done more good than ill for mankind - or vice-versa - is a moot point. Our history is the history of religion and vice-versa. No, the Church didn't invent toothpaste, nor did God come down and chisel out the first wheel. But the people who created those things lived in religiously-influenced cultures. Religion therefore played a part in nearly all human endeavor.

 

[Sukerkin]

Well re-stated, Bill.