A problem

[Earl Weiss]

So I brought it up again last week, and again, a no from all the others. Though one instructors response, well, was just an unrealistic idea of how to move forward. They all want to keep doing Chang Hon set, fine. But one instructor said that 1 - We'd be losing what makes us 'unique', 2 - We'd no longer be doing 'traditional' TKD, and 3 - They would not pay any fees or join any org.


quote]

Well, if that's the majority view, you are pretty much stuck where you are for better or worse. Organizations cannot function without money. There are plenty of certifcate issueing orgs that seem to care little about what standard you follow. I think Pelligrini ahs one as does Keith Yates Karate College group. I don't know of anyone who does it for free.

1. Are you really "Unique" or basicaly ..... never mind, I am sure you know.
2. Can anyone really define "Traditional TKD". and
3. Se above.

 

[jks9199]

At a guess... money may be an issue for some. But your biggest issue is that it sounds like you've got some people who are afraid of losing face. Learning new forms means they may look awkward doing them... Working with a new organization means may find themselves unfavorably compared to others...

If your group wants to advance their training within a structure and with the support of an organization, they need to accept that the organization may require some changes. Nothing keeps you from going on as you have been; you just don't have that outside support and validation.

 

[StudentCarl]

I think you're starting in the direction I would go: someone needs to have the guts to test the waters. I think Master Weiss is probably right about the anxieties and cost issues, but people are usually willing to spend a little if they see it as worthwhile. I suggest a gradual approach:

1. That you continue to pursue this on your own and discover the value of it.
2. If it is valuable, I bet you can find a couple of like minded black belts or instructors down the road who will buy in.
3. If the value continues, you then offer some weekend seminars and gradually offer the path to more people. If the group sees the value, I think the opinions will change. This will also let you deal with resistance individually rather than as a block, and your answers will be based on experience.

Carl

 

[leadleg]

I believe you may be looking to drag these other BB's somewhere they do not want to go,they do not seem to be leaders. You on the other hand need to think of yourself and get the extra training and rank for your personal path.
As you learn more from seniors and aquire higher rank your whole group benefits.Every time you go up in rank,someone in your group can be tested just below you. For evey new form or technique you learn your group does too. I believe this would be the martial way.

 

[puunui]

Every time you go up in rank,someone in your group can be tested just below you.

One thing that we noticed, at least in the United States, is that there is a coming shortage of Kukkiwon high dan practitioners. There are a whole bunch of low ranks, 3rd to maybe 5th Dan range, but after that, it gets very rare. Also, the seniors, the 8th or 9th Dan types, are retiring and don't seem concerned that their highest Kukkiwon certified student is in that 3-5 range. What this means is that eventually, we will only have 3-5 dan or lower, and progressively less and less people will have access to higher dan, because their instructor retired and/or does not feel the need or desire to give them higher Kukkiwon rank.

Take this to the next level and many instructors who have mid level or low Kukkiwon dan feel that it is something special for them, and don't necessarily feel obligated to give their students the same certification, at the same level. This is one of the effects of the "me" generation line of thinking. They don't think about the big picture or the future, just what is in front of their faces at the moment, from their own me perspective.

I look through the list of Kukkiwon 6th-9th Dan from 1997 and see very few American borns in there. Several have passed away, retired or are not promoting their students through the Kukkiwon.

At some point, this will become a real issue. At that point, it won't be a matter of who "deserves" promotion, it will be a matter of who "can" promote.

I guess it shouldn't really matter, for me, from my perspective. After all, I got mine and it ain't a problem, for me. Let the juniors destroy the world and themselves, just like they destroyed the USTU.

 

[terryl965]

One thing that we noticed, at least in the United States, is that there is a coming shortage of Kukkiwon high dan practitioners. There are a whole bunch of low ranks, 3rd to maybe 5th Dan range, but after that, it gets very rare. Also, the seniors, the 8th or 9th Dan types, are retiring and don't seem concerned that their highest Kukkiwon certified student is in that 3-5 range. What this means is that eventually, we will only have 3-5 dan or lower, and progressively less and less people will have access to higher dan, because their instructor retired and/or does not feel the need or desire to give them higher Kukkiwon rank.

Take this to the next level and many instructors who have mid level or low Kukkiwon dan feel that it is something special for them, and don't necessarily feel obligated to give their students the same certification, at the same level. This is one of the effects of the "me" generation line of thinking. They don't think about the big picture or the future, just what is in front of their faces at the moment, from their own me perspective.

I look through the list of Kukkiwon 6th-9th Dan from 1997 and see very few American borns in there. Several have passed away, retired or are not promoting their students through the Kukkiwon.

At some point, this will become a real issue. At that point, it won't be a matter of who "deserves" promotion, it will be a matter of who "can" promote.

I guess it shouldn't really matter, for me, from my perspective. After all, I got mine and it ain't a problem, for me. Let the juniors destroy the world and themselves, just like they destroyed the USTU.

Man puunui what happen to that positive attitude you had a few weeks ago? You seem content on belittleing the juniors here lately, is there a reason? I mean the uSTU was not perfect but it sure is better then what we have now. I am not and was not a fan of USAT and I only go with a few that believe they have a chance someday.

I always do not agree with what you say but I have learned to appreciate your passion for TKD and the growth of it though the past. Come back and give some positive feedback because I believe this is truely your calling. Your insight is geniune and your perspective is appreciated by all.:asian:

 

[terryl965]

Bluewave I would go and train and learn what I could to continue your own personal growth. Have fun and take small step and enjoy.

 

[puunui]

Come back and give some positive feedback because I believe this is truely your calling. Your insight is geniune and your perspective is appreciated by all.:asian:

Throughout these discussions, I have been soaking it all in, listening to what has been said, and more importantly understanding the attitudes expressed and have come to the conclusion that there is no positive feedback to give. I am simply pointing out what will happen and what is happening due to the fact that: 1) Few understand the importance of unification; 2) If they do understand they are only thinking about themselves and do things that disturb that unification; and 3) the resulting selfish behavior is causing disunification which will lead to all kinds of ugly places.

I'm just explaining what will happen and what is happening if these disunification attitudes persist. Thoughts are things and they have impact and ramifications, especially when combined with the similar thoughts of others. At some point, it becomes too much to overcome. This is especially true in Taekwondo, where the pioneers are slowly fading off, passing away, or permanently retiring. No one is around to carry on their work and their vision, especially since so few are willing or able to acknowledge their vision in the first place, even though it is staring them in the face.

In some ways, maybe in a lot of ways, the ITF and Kukki Taekwondo are very similar, in that both were lead by a charismatic leader, and once that leader left the organization, things started to unravel. Dr. Kim was the glue that held everything together, and we have been struggling ever since he left. I think that we have to hit rock bottom before people realize how serious all of this is.

 

[granfire]

One thing that we noticed, at least in the United States, is that there is a coming shortage of Kukkiwon high dan practitioners. There are a whole bunch of low ranks, 3rd to maybe 5th Dan range, but after that, it gets very rare. Also, the seniors, the 8th or 9th Dan types, are retiring and don't seem concerned that their highest Kukkiwon certified student is in that 3-5 range. What this means is that eventually, we will only have 3-5 dan or lower, and progressively less and less people will have access to higher dan, because their instructor retired and/or does not feel the need or desire to give them higher Kukkiwon rank.

Take this to the next level and many instructors who have mid level or low Kukkiwon dan feel that it is something special for them, and don't necessarily feel obligated to give their students the same certification, at the same level. This is one of the effects of the "me" generation line of thinking. They don't think about the big picture or the future, just what is in front of their faces at the moment, from their own me perspective.

I look through the list of Kukkiwon 6th-9th Dan from 1997 and see very few American borns in there. Several have passed away, retired or are not promoting their students through the Kukkiwon.

At some point, this will become a real issue. At that point, it won't be a matter of who "deserves" promotion, it will be a matter of who "can" promote.

I guess it shouldn't really matter, for me, from my perspective. After all, I got mine and it ain't a problem, for me. Let the juniors destroy the world and themselves, just like they destroyed the USTU.

You might be right but in this context your statement puzzles me.

I mean, am I qualified to test others up to my rank? (then again maybe I should be, but I am also not KKW)

However, this is a story for another day.

 

[StudentCarl]

At some point, it becomes too much to overcome. This is especially true in Taekwondo, where the pioneers are slowly fading off, passing away, or permanently retiring. No one is around to carry on their work and their vision, especially since so few are willing or able to acknowledge their vision in the first place, even though it is staring them in the face.

Sir,
I am most junior as a 47 year old colored belt. I wonder what is your perception of how much is unwilling vs. unable in your comment above. Although I'm junior in Taekwondo and focused at the basic skill level, my life experience is further along. "Unwilling" is a recipe for destruction, but "unable" suggests a need for greater communication and leadership. I would like to know this vision and have it shared more widely, as I am willing though junior.

Carl

 

[puunui]

"Unwilling" is a recipe for destruction, but "unable" suggests a need for greater communication and leadership.

I don't know how much is unwilling vs. unable. I think the two are tied together. Part of it means that some will have to give up their current thoughts and attitudes, and they may not be ready to do that yet.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I just put one foot over the cliff, staring into the great unknown. What happens in the next few days will determine if i bring it back to land or step off.

 

[leadleg]

A lot of the older generation held back their students, that was always one of the things that bothered so many Americans. The trip to Korea and back gaining three degrees each way. In 2000 GM Cha Sok Park said he was going to right some of the wrongs his counterparts had done to their students and especially to women by promoting them beyond 4th dan.
I know many people who are 6th and 7th dan KKW, not too many non Korean above that but a few.I do not see these 7th dans stopping at that level and they are all younger than me so I see them reaching those higher goals.
As for the juniors ruining the world,well thats a bit dramatic, sounds like my grandpa.
The juniors could not have brought down the ustu if it had not been for weaknesses inside the infrastructure. If you only remember one side of the story then I suppose it seems as if it was some horrible accident that could not have been avoided.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

This is especially true in Taekwondo, where the pioneers are slowly fading off, passing away, or permanently retiring. No one is around to carry on their work and their vision, especially since so few are willing or able to acknowledge their vision in the first place, even though it is staring them in the face.
In some ways, maybe in a lot of ways, the ITF and Kukki Taekwondo are very similar, in that both were lead by a charismatic leader, and once that leader left the organization, things started to unravel. Dr. Kim was the glue that held everything together, and we have been struggling ever since he left. I think that we have to hit rock bottom before people realize how serious all of this is.

Important points. The ITF is plagued with disunity & is doomed to fail if they keep going down that road of infighting. I think valuable lessons can be learned by their mistakes. I hope this doesn't happen to Kukki TKD.

 

[jks9199]

Throughout these discussions, I have been soaking it all in, listening to what has been said, and more importantly understanding the attitudes expressed and have come to the conclusion that there is no positive feedback to give. I am simply pointing out what will happen and what is happening due to the fact that: 1) Few understand the importance of unification; 2) If they do understand they are only thinking about themselves and do things that disturb that unification; and 3) the resulting selfish behavior is causing disunification which will lead to all kinds of ugly places.

I'm just explaining what will happen and what is happening if these disunification attitudes persist. Thoughts are things and they have impact and ramifications, especially when combined with the similar thoughts of others. At some point, it becomes too much to overcome. This is especially true in Taekwondo, where the pioneers are slowly fading off, passing away, or permanently retiring. No one is around to carry on their work and their vision, especially since so few are willing or able to acknowledge their vision in the first place, even though it is staring them in the face.

In some ways, maybe in a lot of ways, the ITF and Kukki Taekwondo are very similar, in that both were lead by a charismatic leader, and once that leader left the organization, things started to unravel. Dr. Kim was the glue that held everything together, and we have been struggling ever since he left. I think that we have to hit rock bottom before people realize how serious all of this is.

I'm curious about what you mean by "unification." Under whose umbrella, with what structure, should TKD be unified? Who should be defining what is or isn't TKD? What room might there be for local or individual variation?

I regret to say that, from what I've seen in your posts, I suspect that your answers will be rather self-serving; your model, your umbrella, and only your accepted variations. Please, prove me wrong.

 

[puunui]

I'm curious about what you mean by "unification." Under whose umbrella, with what structure, should TKD be unified? Who should be defining what is or isn't TKD? What room might there be for local or individual variation? I regret to say that, from what I've seen in your posts, I suspect that your answers will be rather self-serving; your model, your umbrella, and only your accepted variations. Please, prove me wrong.

I've already answered all of your questions in prior posts and don't really feel like repeating it because the conversation has progressed. And sorry but I'm not here to prove you or anyone else wrong. As for self serving, I cannot control how you think or view my posts. Your thoughts are your own and I take no responsibility for what you think about what I write.