Tournaments?

[Cryozombie]

Hey, I have a question...

I was reading the thread on Chung Moo Do, and it SEEMS to me, (please forgive me if I am wrong) a lot of you seem to think the only way to prove an art is good is to fight in a tournament.

For the most part, aren't tournaments sport-oriented competitions with a lot of limitations on the fighting you can do, and if so, how are they accurate measures of ones fighting ability?

When I studied Hapkido, the tournaments I fought in limited your striking to above the wasit and below the neck, no strikes to the back, Etc... Definitly not a measure of fighting ability, IMHO. Even in UFC and many other "No Holds Barred" matches there are rules... no Eye Gouging, (intentional) Knee breaking or groin strikes, biting... etc...

SO does an art lose legitimacy as "Real" if its not used in tournaments? I'm not defending Chung Moo, I know almost nothing about it... But in the Bujinkan, one of the grandmaster Hatsumi's rules is no tournament fighting, because our art is not a sport. Does this make it a "fake" art because we dont impose rules and limitations on our fighting and win trophies with it?

I want to say also, I'm asking as a legitimate question, I am not trying to bash anyone for tournament fighting, or be a defensive jerk, I'm genuinly curious.

 

[Laevolus]

SOme very valid points there, most of which I'm not really qualified to answer, compared to some of the more knowledgable people on here.

After doing a lot of reading and studying over the past few years, though, I've come to the conclusion that in many ways, there are two "types" of martial arts - Self Defence and Sports.

Now, I'm not trying to shoehorn specific styles into one or the other, in many ways it's more down to the person who's doing it, but I know I do MA purely for self defence, I have no desire to enter competitions or tournaments, so the style I do suits me very well as it's more aimed for that.

Ohter syles though actively encourage entry into competitions, and with valid reasons, (pressure testing, learning to overcome adrenaline rush, for instance?) but setting rules in a tournament takes it far away from the principles of self defence.

So I tend to agree, you can't really judge a style for self defense based on how well it would work in a tournament, but at least it will give you some idea.

Or am I just spouting rubbish here?

 

[Aegis]

I don't think it had anything to do with the fact that he hadn't been in a tournement. More likely is his claim that ALL tournament orginisers had banned students of his arts from competeing due to the "too deadly" nature of his art...

AFAIK, anyone is allowed to compete in open competitions, as long as they follow the rules and have appropriate insurence.

 

[MartialArtist]

IMO, tournaments aren't really a test of how good of a fighter you are. You don't need tournament fighting really...

But you do need some sort of system or training sparring with people of different types away from your school and people who fight a bit differently than you do.

Tournaments aren'y really a bad idea, but most of the tournaments I went to were ridiculous. Tap sparring, doing all sorts of flips and such, it looked like someone was dancing and not really sparring. But that's just how some organizations run tournaments :cough: WTF :cough:

Forgive me, I'm more of a traditionalist. Combat oriented with unity of mind and body. Not something that slaughters the whole intention of the martial arts.

 

[Despairbear]

The way I feel, tournements are a game. They can be fun and are good exercise but they are not martial arts. It would be totaly irresponcable to have a true "no holds barred" contest, the body count would be huge. Some things do cross over from tounrey fighting to MA and back again but when you say "ok here are the rules" you are not fighting you are playing the game.


Despair Bear

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Laevolus
After doing a lot of reading and studying over the past few years, though, I've come to the conclusion that in many ways, there are two "types" of martial arts - Self Defence and Sports.

I don't think those are types of martial arts, but types of applications of martial arts. It's really a pity that some organizations only teach the sportive application. :cough: WTF :cough:

Tournaments of any kind are just a measure of how well someone can use what they've been taught in a simulated fight. Success in a tournament can give you an estimate of you skill compared to those that you competed against, but that's it.

Th only way to know how you'd do if you really had to defend your life is to really have to defend your life. I'm happier not knowing, howabout all of you?

I think plenty of arts too can't be compared to others in a tournament. Do we have a volunteer to test their Vale tudo against one of the Dog Brothers with their sticks?

I think this forum's special hatred of Chung Moo Do has to do with more than their lack of tournament participation.

If I wanted to judge the effectiveness of an art, I would watch its practitioners train (upper and lower ranks) and compare it to the arts I've studied.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zepp
I don't think those are types of martial arts, but types of applications of martial arts. It's really a pity that some organizations only teach the sportive application. :cough: WTF :cough:

Tournaments of any kind are just a measure of how well someone can use what they've been taught in a simulated fight. Success in a tournament can give you an estimate of you skill compared to those that you competed against, but that's it.

Th only way to know how you'd do if you really had to defend your life is to really have to defend your life. I'm happier not knowing, howabout all of you?

I think plenty of arts too can't be compared to others in a tournament. Do we have a volunteer to test their Vale tudo against one of the Dog Brothers with their sticks?

I think this forum's special hatred of Chung Moo Do has to do with more than their lack of tournament participation.

If I wanted to judge the effectiveness of an art, I would watch its practitioners train (upper and lower ranks) and compare it to the arts I've studied.

It's pretty much impossible to judge an art. But an art is made up of its practitioners, but look at TKD. There are millions of people who don't practice TKD for pure combat, but then there's the 0.1% that do, and that 0.1% is one tough group. I don't have a lot of experience with CMD, but I never seen one that trained that hard, but that's just me. I'm sure there are people that do.

On tournaments being looked at a game, I agree with you. But I've met people who've put their "manhoods" on the line which I don't get.

 

[SRyuFighter]

Originally posted by Technopunk

But in the Bujinkan, one of the grandmaster Hatsumi's rules is no tournament fighting, because our art is not a sport. Does this make it a "fake" art because we dont impose rules and limitations on our fighting and win trophies with it?

My sensei tells us the same thing. We are allowed to go into tournaments but we choose not to, both because we don't like to be plauged by rules, and because our art is also not a sport. I don't think a tournament proves anything more than being able to win with those circumstances. Unless it is something like UFC where there are no rules, if there then there are very little. That is how one proves his own fighting ability.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by SRyuFighter
My sensei tells us the same thing. We are allowed to go into tournaments but we choose not to, both because we don't like to be plauged by rules, and because our art is also not a sport. I don't think a tournament proves anything more than being able to win with those circumstances. Unless it is something like UFC where there are no rules, if there then there are very little. That is how one proves his own fighting ability.

The UFC has rules, and it is fought under controlled conditions obviously to prevent major injuries and death.

The UFC in its earliest days had no rules, but it didn't last a long time.

 

[chufeng]

Tornaments have there place...

The novice who fears confronting an unknown opponent, for instance, is given an opportunity to face his fear and work through it...

Testing out a specific strategy against an opponent you don't routinely train with and who is from a totally different system...

...and there is the opportunity to network (kind of like this web board) and showcase your system...as well as see other systems in action, albeit contrived...

Is it real fighting...NO...but then, anyone going in thinking it is, has been misled by his instructor. Does a trophy count prove who's the baddest? Not at all...

But, tournaments do have some merit...the part I like to watch is forms competetion (I'm not talking about the new "dance to the music" forms...but traditional forms)...it is interesting to see the obvious biases certain judges have when grading competition forms . It's also telling to see the competitors violating some basic rules of proper stance and body movement...you can use those examples to show your own students certain mistakes to avoid.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[ydma1796]

I'm not sure if I got this topic correct or not but street fighting and tourneys are two totally different animals. Unfortunately I've been in many more street fights then tourny's. My tourney record isn't all that good, but my street fighting record is excellent.

I believe that do to a totally different mind set my tourney record sucks.... Now I could be wrong but when I enter a tourney I'm there to have fun, meet new people..etc..etc. When I'm in a hospitalize or be hospitalized senario I'm not thinking about how many points I can score in my 3 min. round. I'm thinking whats the fastest way to put this guy down and keep him down.

If I've missinterpreted this thread my apologies

:asian: Kevin

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
The UFC has rules, and it is fought under controlled conditions obviously to prevent major injuries and death.

The UFC in its earliest days had no rules, but it didn't last a long time.

Heh. I think a big part of that was the 30+ minute matches where it was just basically two sweaty guys rolling around on top of each other on the mat, or even just lying there.

Cthulhu

 

[yilisifu]

I agree with Chufeng. While we don't stress tournament competition, we aldo don't forbid our students to participate in them.