A kem/npo sytem

[MJS]

It will be self defense oriented for all of the students. The training will be techniques oriented with some anaroebic conditioning for all. The system will have two segments: 1, a regular type of class with the same elements just slightly less emphasis. 2. An elite version, with heavy emphasis on the techniques/ and contact, etc.. We wont turn anyone away, but, also won't be afraid to "lose" students, never comprimising the art, and the training.

Sounds good!

Now, since we have a real self defense (fighting) oriented system, do we go with Hard blocking (Star blocking system, 8pt. blocking system, etc..), or, do we go with Boxing type defenses: parrying, covering, bobbing, weaving, etc.., or all of the above?

I'd go with a mixture of all of them.

Next how do we develop, practice these defensive attributes? Stand in a horse stance and do it, do it in a boxing stance, and movement? c- stepping, 1/2 mooning, shuffling etc..?

I'd start in a static position so the basic idea of the blocks can be learned. From there, progress to movement. I'd primarily use the boxing stance or neutral bow.

What will be the ready stance? flat footed (neutral bow. 1/2 moon), or a boxing stance?

I'd say train from all of them. The natural or flat footed stance, as you called it, would be good to work from, as thats how we're standing the majority of the time. Working from the other stances is good as well, as we'll need to be able to function during the 'heat' of the fight.

 

[Hand Sword]

O.K. Since we're going for a real self defense theme, and we're on punch defenses at the moment, I have a few questions.

we're suggesting to mix hard blocking, with parrying, and other boxing type defenses. My question is: Can this really be trained to the effeciency that we're going for? What type of attacker are we looking at building around? Is it the one, big, roundhouse punch? A Boxer? (or similar, with fast multiple punches, and movement, kind of like these 20 something club tough guys). This would also decide our footwork and stances. I don't think "nuetral bowing" is ideal for this, as that was designed for that 1 punch scenario. Shouldn't our Kenmpo system abandon that, and focus on training the Boxing/JKD way. Thinking along the lines of: If we can train for the mean boxer, we can beat any 1 punch artist, or sloppy boxing attempt?

 

[bill007]

O.K. Since we're going for a real self defense theme, and we're on punch defenses at the moment, I have a few questions.

What type of attacker are we looking at building around? Is it the one, big, roundhouse punch? A Boxer? (or similar, with fast multiple punches, and movement, kind of like these 20 something club tough guys). This would also decide our footwork and stances.

All of these types, a complete system need everything works against any type of attacker, I suggest a high stance for the flowing motion and quick escape.

 

[MJS]

O.K. Since we're going for a real self defense theme, and we're on punch defenses at the moment, I have a few questions.

we're suggesting to mix hard blocking, with parrying, and other boxing type defenses. My question is: Can this really be trained to the effeciency that we're going for? What type of attacker are we looking at building around? Is it the one, big, roundhouse punch? A Boxer? (or similar, with fast multiple punches, and movement, kind of like these 20 something club tough guys). This would also decide our footwork and stances. I don't think "nuetral bowing" is ideal for this, as that was designed for that 1 punch scenario. Shouldn't our Kenmpo system abandon that, and focus on training the Boxing/JKD way. Thinking along the lines of: If we can train for the mean boxer, we can beat any 1 punch artist, or sloppy boxing attempt?

Many Kenpo arts are already blending the two types of blocking, so I see nothing wrong with continuing. I have techniques where the first move is a parry and others that start with an inward or outward block. IMO, the block or the moves you choose to execute should depend on what your goal is. A hard block can punish the arm and set you up for more of the same, while a parry, can easily transition to a joint lock.

 

[Danjo]

O.K. Since we're going for a real self defense theme, and we're on punch defenses at the moment, I have a few questions.

we're suggesting to mix hard blocking, with parrying, and other boxing type defenses. My question is: Can this really be trained to the effeciency that we're going for? What type of attacker are we looking at building around? Is it the one, big, roundhouse punch? A Boxer? (or similar, with fast multiple punches, and movement, kind of like these 20 something club tough guys). This would also decide our footwork and stances. I don't think "nuetral bowing" is ideal for this, as that was designed for that 1 punch scenario. Shouldn't our Kenmpo system abandon that, and focus on training the Boxing/JKD way. Thinking along the lines of: If we can train for the mean boxer, we can beat any 1 punch artist, or sloppy boxing attempt?

Hmmm...you know, the more I read this thread and the posts on it I realize something. This was already done about 60 years ago In Hawaii. It's called Kajukenbo. Technique driven (versus kata driven), flowing, powerful, realistic defenses against boxers, wrestlers, judo, knives, clubs etc. etc. The blending of these various disciplines from the first white belt techniques through black belt is one of the hallmarks of the system. So my opinion is that if I were to come up with a "Kenmpo" system it would have to be a replication of Kajukenbo.

 

[James Kovacich]

Hmmm...you know, the more I read this thread and the posts on it I realize something. This was already done about 60 years ago In Hawaii. It's called Kajukenbo. Technique driven (versus kata driven), flowing, powerful, realistic defenses against boxers, wrestlers, judo, knives, clubs etc. etc. The blending of these various disciplines from the first white belt techniques through black belt is one of the hallmarks of the system. So my opinion is that if I were to come up with a "Kenmpo" system it would have to be a replication of Kajukenbo.

Even with the kata?

 

[Blindside]

Hmmm...you know, the more I read this thread and the posts on it I realize something. This was already done about 60 years ago In Hawaii. It's called Kajukenbo. Technique driven (versus kata driven), flowing, powerful, realistic defenses against boxers, wrestlers, judo, knives, clubs etc. etc. The blending of these various disciplines from the first white belt techniques through black belt is one of the hallmarks of the system. So my opinion is that if I were to come up with a "Kenmpo" system it would have to be a replication of Kajukenbo.

Your assuming the conclusions of kajukenbo were correct, and given all the variations of kaju its pretty hard to say what kaju is.

Lamont

 

[Touch Of Death]

Many Kenpo arts are already blending the two types of blocking, so I see nothing wrong with continuing. I have techniques where the first move is a parry and others that start with an inward or outward block. IMO, the block or the moves you choose to execute should depend on what your goal is. A hard block can punish the arm and set you up for more of the same, while a parry, can easily transition to a joint lock.

The only difference between an hard block and a soft parry is the angle of incidence.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hmmm...you know, the more I read this thread and the posts on it I realize something. This was already done about 60 years ago In Hawaii. It's called Kajukenbo. Technique driven (versus kata driven), flowing, powerful, realistic defenses against boxers, wrestlers, judo, knives, clubs etc. etc. The blending of these various disciplines from the first white belt techniques through black belt is one of the hallmarks of the system. So my opinion is that if I were to come up with a "Kenmpo" system it would have to be a replication of Kajukenbo.

Maybe Kimo's but not all Kajukenbo can claim the same spirit.
Sean

 

[Danjo]

Maybe Kimo's but not all Kajukenbo can claim the same spirit.
Sean

????

Whatever.

 

[Danjo]

Your assuming the conclusions of kajukenbo were correct, and given all the variations of kaju its pretty hard to say what kaju is.

Lamont

The core is recognizable in all of the methods. Everyone individualizes things a bit to suit their body type and personal strengths, but I think the conclusions were correct. They may not be the only conclusions, but I see no reason to re-invent the wheel.

 

[Danjo]

Even with the kata?

Not a big fan of kata except for teaching the basics and how to transition from one move to the other. They were all taken from the defensive counters, not the other way around (except for our version of Nihanchi Shodan which is in there for it's historical value I think). We don't learn any kata after green belt.

 

[Hand Sword]

I appreciate everyone's responses so far. As I first explained, I know that we are all avid martial artists, even if it's just our opinions, through much study time, one way or another. I am not trying to re invent the wheel, with my thread, just trying for a little analysis. It's true, there are styles, specifically from our "family", that were designed for the street. Times have changed, (commercialising, softening, etc) so I figured a closer look at our ways might be in order. Back then, there was only so much stuff available for modification, and adaptation. Now, we have many ways available, as more styles are known, practiced, incorporated, etc.. I was hoping we could all break out of our style's thinking, or really scrutinize it, and contribute, honestly, with specifics.

So, to get back on track, and reign it in a little, we were discussing our styles way of dealing with punch attacks (for the time being). We had agreed That our goal was in realistic street defenses. For this I asked what type of puncher was going to be the focus? We have the person that throws that one, big, punch, which IMHO, was the one that are ways were designed against. They all speak of addressing the boxing attack, but I question if it's realistic. From what I've seen from our material, taking a "stance" and parrying, or hard blocking is inadequate. Movement, a narrower stance, Basically boxing/jkd style is the best to adress that person. From what I've seen over the years, kids on up, don't do the one punch attack. Its a fast flurry, sloppy boxing, grappling attacks. If this is so, wouldn't it be better to train for them? To add more of a boxing base to our art, since they specialize with the best punchers. I think this would change all of our ways, at least a little. Not a new wheel, just different material used to make it, other than stone.

 

[DavidCC]

Since we have decided to focus on self defense, I think we should look at the statistics as to what types of attacks are most common, and address those with the highest priority.

What state of mind is the victim in? Aware of the attacker or unaware? The nature of the attack - armed or unarmed; punch, tackle or kick; from the front, behind or side? trying for one big surprise KO punch or squared off like a boxing match? 1 attacker or a group?

Once we have determined what we think is the right answer to all of these questions, we can look at techniques that fit those situations. yes we should eventually cover all ranges and possibilities, but focus on the most likely scenarios and the highest-percentage responses to them, first.

 

[Hand Sword]

That's what I was shooting for--LOL. I figured a punch attack was the most common attack, so I started there, and figured we'd cover the other scenarios after that. That's why I asked what kind of a puncher is most likely. From my experiences, it's not the one puncher, which I felt our current styles were designed for. Instead, I ran/run across a faster moving, boxing type, puncher. If so, that dictates a change of some sort, in all of our ways. The take a stance and block/parry, the way I've seen it done won't cut it anymore. That's why I figured adopting Boxing basics to start our defenses, getting away from the "hard" stuff, due to their specializing with dealing with the best punchers. Deal with them, you can handle all of the rest.

 

[bill007]

That's what I was shooting for--LOL. I figured a punch attack was the most common attack, so I started there, and figured we'd cover the other scenarios after that. That's why I asked what kind of a puncher is most likely. From my experiences, it's not the one puncher, which I felt our current styles were designed for. Instead, I ran/run across a faster moving, boxing type, puncher. If so, that dictates a change of some sort, in all of our ways. The take a stance and block/parry, the way I've seen it done won't cut it anymore. That's why I figured adopting Boxing basics to start our defenses, getting away from the "hard" stuff, due to their specializing with dealing with the best punchers. Deal with them, you can handle all of the rest.

If it's a bar fight there's a lot of chance a pool cue will be swing at you..., the first time I went close to a fight that's what happens, maybe we can call it the Dufferin technique lol (Dufferin is the biggest cue maker)

 

[Hand Sword]

Indeed it will! I agree with that, but, again, in terms of starting a system out, that scenario can be incorporated later on, once one has some competence. Percentages are highest for a punch, IMHO, so, I started there. As I pointed out, how we train for one who does that: a drunk, boxer, club tough guy, etc.. might change how we do everything else (movement, blocks, parries, stances, etc..)


So......in terms with adressing punch attacks, from a realistic oriented system, who is the puncher we'll train for?

I believe our sytems are designed for a one puncher, primarily. Those that address boxing, from what I've seen, realsitically, are inadequate. That's why I asked if the abandoning of our stances and Blocks would be in order, replaced by a boxing-defense/movement curriculum, as they specialize in dealing with the best punchers. Train for them, the rest is gravy.

 

[Hand Sword]

Since it's been awhile, I'll pick it up from here. I say we should design our punch defenses to deal with a boxer. We should go with Boxing stances, footwork and defenses. I feel this will carry over to also deal with attackers that are bigger, and stronger, which parrying and moving should be preferred. It also goes against multiple attackers, where parrying, moving, covering etc. would be very beneficial, over stances and blocks. Finally, the movement, parrying, and the focus of dealing with fast hand attacks, from different angles, would be beneficial with dealing with weapon attacks.

Now that adresses movement, stances, and defenses. Now, what hand strikes do we practice? Which ones should be are excluded, if any?

 

[MJS]

That's what I was shooting for--LOL. I figured a punch attack was the most common attack, so I started there, and figured we'd cover the other scenarios after that. That's why I asked what kind of a puncher is most likely. From my experiences, it's not the one puncher, which I felt our current styles were designed for. Instead, I ran/run across a faster moving, boxing type, puncher. If so, that dictates a change of some sort, in all of our ways. The take a stance and block/parry, the way I've seen it done won't cut it anymore. That's why I figured adopting Boxing basics to start our defenses, getting away from the "hard" stuff, due to their specializing with dealing with the best punchers. Deal with them, you can handle all of the rest.

The boxing stance is fine, but I still think that we shouldn't overlook the natural position.

 

[MJS]

Now that adresses movement, stances, and defenses. Now, what hand strikes do we practice? Which ones should be are excluded, if any?

Well, if we're going to adapt the boxing stance, it would be good to include the standard punches you'd find in boxing. The jab, cross, hook and uppercut. I think that open hand strikes should be taught as well. This can fall into the category of a slap, palm strike as well as raking strikes. Not sure if elbows are falling into this category, but those should be included as well. I think that the gunting or limb destruction that is found in the FMAs and some of the Kaju techniques is another good thing to add.

Mike