A judge that get's it

[theletch1]

During a conversation with my ex-wife this afternoon she was telling me that during the school year last year her 15 year old daughter was attacked and beaten by a much larger girl in her school. The daughter defended herself once she was on the ground with the larger girl in the mount. As with most high schools the one she attended had a zero tolerance policy for violence. Both the attacker and the defender were suspended for several days. Charges of disorderly conduct and assault were filed against both girls. During the court proceedings today one teacher and one lunch room attendant (that's where the fight took place) testified that the defender attempted to walk away twice before the altercation became physical and was ultimately jumped from behind. After a review of the evidence the judge acknowledged that while the conduct of both girls was, indeed, disorderly that there was no way that he would convict the defender of any crime while defending themselves from a physical attack. Kudos to the judge for allowing a little common sense to enter the court room for a change.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Great first step. Now, if only the judge could go a step further and stick it to the cowardly principal and school district for punishing the defender in the first place.

Zero tolerance makes me angry.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Great first step. Now, if only the judge could go a step further and stick it to the cowardly principal and school district for punishing the defender in the first place.

Zero tolerance makes me angry.

While they are discussing your punishment (* I know it has been years but they do it to scare the child/teen *) just smile and ask if you can call your parents so they can call a lawyer and the police to take a report.

I understand that the idea is to make it zero tolerence and therefore avoid fights. The problem is that bad "guys" have no care about time off and if they can get someone "good" to go with them then they win.

Just my opinion.

 

[Steel Tiger]

While they are discussing your punishment (* I know it has been years but they do it to scare the child/teen *) just smile and ask if you can call your parents so they can call a lawyer and the police to take a report.

I understand that the idea is to make it zero tolerence and therefore avoid fights. The problem is that bad "guys" have no care about time off and if they can get someone "good" to go with them then they win.

Just my opinion.

I think you've nailed the biggest problem with zero tolerance policies of any sort. The bad guys don't care. They have become used to punishment and accept it as part of the process. So zero tolerance frightens those who would do anything anyway and is ignored by those who would.

 

[Gordon Nore]

I think you've nailed the biggest problem with zero tolerance policies of any sort. The bad guys don't care. They have become used to punishment and accept it as part of the process. So zero tolerance frightens those who would do anything anyway and is ignored by those who would.

As a middle school teacher, I think zero-tolerance policies are bad education. The reality is that adolescence is a rough ride -- hormones rage; emotions can be frayed. Busy schools with hundreds of students milling about are stressful places. No, I don't tolerate violence; however, my first priority is to sit down with the parties involved and get them to think about what happens tomorrow. Is somebody thinking of coming back and settling the score?

Just today I intervened in a fight between two boys, one of whom was clearly the aggressor. This was during a year-end field trip to the beach. I ended up taking the kid who was just trying to defend himself back to school. Because he was upset, I thought a ride back in my air-conditioned care would give him a chance to unwind. The other boy was being transported by another staff member on public transportation. I used that time to let the boy talk about how angry he was and what he wanted to do. This way we were able get the anger and hurt out in the open and then strategies against future reprisals. It's not perfect, but I'm working with a boy to help him make right choices.

Zero-tolerance does not provide the opportunity of a teaching moment. Now, a zero-tolerance policy for weapons in school -- got my vote.

 

[Kacey]

Great first step. Now, if only the judge could go a step further and stick it to the cowardly principal and school district for punishing the defender in the first place.

Zero tolerance makes me angry.

I work in a middle school with a zero-tolerance policy for violence... but it comes from state law, not the principal, who does her best to not punish students for defending themselves, as long as the defender didn't start it; I can think of a few instances in which the student who lost started the altercation.

Zero tolerance goes way beyond the school level, just as there are many types of violence that are hard to see and harder to prove. Where I work, we try to cut the attitude off way before it becomes physical - students will always try to go to the level past acceptable, so we set the acceptable level where things like back talk, facial expressions, notes intimating violence, and gestures will get a strong reaction - so that it doesn't reach the physical level. It's not 100% effective, but it's a lot better than some other schools I've worked in.

Now, a zero-tolerance policy for weapons in school -- got my vote.

We have that - again, by state law. The problem is, define "weapon". Then define "bring".

According to Colorado law, any student who brings a weapon to school is automatically expelled... and this included an 8 year-old, who accidentally got her mother's lunch instead of hers. When she opened it, she found a paring knife inside, which her mother had packed to cut up the apple that was part of mom's lunch. The child took the knife to a teacher who was supervising the cafeteria, who took it to the principal - who had no choice, under the law, but to expel this 8 year-old, for doing the right thing. This child will carry that expulsion for bringing a weapon to school on her record all of her school career. Now, the principal did the best he could - there was no minimum length to the expulsion (Colorado law also limits expulsion to 1 year) - so he expelled the girl for one day. Still, it was a stupid situation, which highlights the problems with zero tolerance.

 

[Steel Tiger]

As a middle school teacher, I think zero-tolerance policies are bad education. The reality is that adolescence is a rough ride -- hormones rage; emotions can be frayed. Busy schools with hundreds of students milling about are stressful places. No, I don't tolerate violence; however, my first priority is to sit down with the parties involved and get them to think about what happens tomorrow. Is somebody thinking of coming back and settling the score?

Just today I intervened in a fight between two boys, one of whom was clearly the aggressor. This was during a year-end field trip to the beach. I ended up taking the kid who was just trying to defend himself back to school. Because he was upset, I thought a ride back in my air-conditioned care would give him a chance to unwind. The other boy was being transported by another staff member on public transportation. I used that time to let the boy talk about how angry he was and what he wanted to do. This way we were able get the anger and hurt out in the open and then strategies against future reprisals. It's not perfect, but I'm working with a boy to help him make right choices.

Zero-tolerance does not provide the opportunity of a teaching moment. Now, a zero-tolerance policy for weapons in school -- got my vote.

What you did makes a lot of sense. Zero tolerance strikes me as a way of dealing with a problem, or problems, without actually having to deal with it. No one should be punished for defending themselves, and putting in a little time and effort can usually resolve the situation.

Weapons in schools? There is no place for them. But I'm in Australia and we just don't have that sort of problem in schools, so much.

 

[tellner]

Zero tolerance == Zero judgement

 

[Steel Tiger]

Zero tolerance == Zero judgement

That is a very good way of putting it.

 

[Yeti]

Zero tolerance == Zero judgement

Well it was bound to happen sooner or later...I actually agree with you!

 

[Tez3]

I can understand that schools want to banish violence and fighting but it's not practical where there are teens. As everyone knows they are full of hormones, frustrations and voilence! So called primitive societies understood this and sent the young lads off on quests/kill a lion trips etc. They could then come back as solid members of their societies. There is always a group who will bully, push and fight, there's also the group who will fight when pushed.

Years ago the boxing club was the saviour of many a young man, the police had active involvement in many of them. I think then we weren't afraid of violence the way we are now.Yes, fighting and violence in most circumstances is wrong but sometimes, getting a couple of lads and maybe these days girls, together with gloves on can sort a situation out. of course it's not advocating violence as the answer.Young people are very physical and will fight so the schools should stop being so uptight about it and deal with case by case. If it's dealt with properly they won't grow into violent adults. Fighting is not such a heinous crime, if someone attacks you and you belt them back, well good for you! Especially as in this case the young lady had done all the right things first.

A couple of times in the club we've had some aggression and a bit of bullying where one lad was pushing the others buttons so we padded them up and told them to spar. They did furiously, afterwards we spoke to them about what had happened. They both gained an understanding and a respect for each other that wasn't there before.

We need to stop being afraid of the thought of violence, accept that it will happen in schools and deal with it differently. As others have said the bad guys don't actually care, in fact would probably enjoy days off from school. The ways things stand now all fights are lumped under one label and everyone is punished.

 

[donna]

What you did makes a lot of sense. Zero tolerance strikes me as a way of dealing with a problem, or problems, without actually having to deal with it. No one should be punished for defending themselves, and putting in a little time and effort can usually resolve the situation.

Weapons in schools? There is no place for them. But I'm in Australia and we just don't have that sort of problem in schools, so much.

It depends on where you are. Our High school has employed uniformed security personel, with the power to physically restrain students , to combat the problems that have become increasingly worse over the past few years. Knives were becoming a big problem.The security presence has made a big difference.
This year they have banned the use of mobile phones in the school grounds too, as they were being used as a bullying tool. Anyone caught using a phone on school property has them confiscated and the parent has to go to the school to retrieve them.

 

[Steel Tiger]

It depends on where you are. Our High school has employed uniformed security personel, with the power to physically restrain students , to combat the problems that have become increasingly worse over the past few years. Knives were becoming a big problem.The security presence has made a big difference.
This year they have banned the use of mobile phones in the school grounds too, as they were being used as a bullying tool. Anyone caught using a phone on school property has them confiscated and the parent has to go to the school to retrieve them.

I hadn't realised it was getting quite that bad, but then look what has been happening in the news recently.

Confiscating of mobile phones is a problem. A lot of kids have those phones for legitimate reasons, and because of a few mongrels they're losing the use of them. I do have a problem with schools confiscating anything, I'm not sure its entirely legal. Then there's the whole problem of a student who has had a phone confiscated then getting into trouble of some sort after school where a phone would provide safety or assistance.

 

[Kacey]

I hadn't realised it was getting quite that bad, but then look what has been happening in the news recently.

Confiscating of mobile phones is a problem. A lot of kids have those phones for legitimate reasons, and because of a few mongrels they're losing the use of them. I do have a problem with schools confiscating anything, I'm not sure its entirely legal. Then there's the whole problem of a student who has had a phone confiscated then getting into trouble of some sort after school where a phone would provide safety or assistance.

We only take them (I teach in a middle school) if they're caught with the phone on during class - cheating via cell phone is the newest rage, as is texting for a variety of other reasons. First offense, the child signs a contract stating that s/he understands the cell phone rules (included on the contract). Second offense, the parent signs the same contract as the child, when picking up the phone. Third offense, the phone is confiscated until the end of the school year... usually resulting in the child getting a new phone (not much of a negative consequence when that happens).

Lots of parents complain if their child's cell phone is taken - and cite the reasons you give - but the biggest complaint is the inconvenience of having to come get it. The fact remains, however, that the school has the right to remove items from a student if the item is detrimental to the learning process of the student or students in the vicinity - and that includes cell phones, as they are used to cheat, to spread rumors, to spread threats, and so on. After all, it's been less than a decade that cell phones have been as accessible - and people survived without them before that time. There's a phone in every classroom in my building, and parents MUST contact the office to pick a child up or have the child released from school - and they MUST do so directly to the office - something else they complain about vociferously, despite the safety risk inherent if we were to let kids leave the school because some unidentifiable voice on a cell phone says to do so - think Ferris Buehler.

This is, however, somewhat off the topic of the thread, which is a judge who did not punish a child who defended herself, despite a zero tolerance policy for violence. You said:

I hadn't realised it was getting quite that bad, but then look what has been happening in the news recently.

Confiscating of mobile phones is a problem. A lot of kids have those phones for legitimate reasons, and because of a few mongrels they're losing the use of them. I do have a problem with schools confiscating anything, I'm not sure its entirely legal. Then there's the whole problem of a student who has had a phone confiscated then getting into trouble of some sort after school where a phone would provide safety or assistance.

Well, cell phones are just one in a long list of items and/or activities that have been banned at schools because they are detrimental to student learning - as detrimental, in their way, as the violence that sparked the thread. In too many instances, policies, statutes, laws, etc., are written in response to an occurrence or series of occurrences, which don't address the root problem, and punish the non-offenders considerably more than the offenders. Too many laws are written in reaction to negative events, in an effort to prevent future occurrences - but unless something addresses the underlying cause of the problem, laws that punish offenders are not likely to prove much of a deterrent, as can be seen by the current state of our legal system.

That this judge was willing to take the time to investigate the fight and exonerate the girl who was defending herself, rather than upholding a statute written in reaction to negative events, speaks well for him; I can only hope there are more like him out there.

 

[jdinca]

There are some superb responses here. I've got teenage boys, so I know quite well about the school districts inability to apply common sense to a situation. The problem is, zero tolerance means the school administration doesn't have to think and come to a decision, it's already done for the. Less time and effort on their part, and plenty of CYA because both parties were treated the same.

Zero tolerance comes from the same brilliant minds that outlawed dodge ball, tag and flag football because they were afraid of damaging the childrens fragile egos...

 

[Touch Of Death]

Great first step. Now, if only the judge could go a step further and stick it to the cowardly principal and school district for punishing the defender in the first place.

Zero tolerance makes me angry.

I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance. I don't know of course, but I feel for a principal trying to end violence, but he should listen to his own employees.
Sean