A counterpoint to "How easy is it to learn a second art"- The Dojo Hopper

[DennisBreene]

A fellow student emailed me recently to tell me he was quitting Modern Arnis. He is a pleasant individual, and like me, getting into the long tooth period of life. He also had a prior history in a martial art and had returned to training. Work constraints prevented him from training in Arnis more than once a week but he was a diligent student and attended the Sunday class consistently. He also took great joy in relating the Kajukempo and Muay Thai training that he participated in on Saturdays. He was unable to attend special seminars with the MA Grandmaster and expressed frustration that it had taken him so long to advance to completion of the first level. The school has been fortunate enough to have had a significant influx of new students and the Master instructor and those of us with a little experience have been rather diligently trying to give the newbies the attention they need in the basics. Fellow student finally decided to quit because; he had finally achieved the first level and now was being "held back" because he was helping with the newest students (and in my opinion improving his skills as he helped teach), still primarily practicing the first level when he wanted to move on to another module (specifically knife defense) and there had been no time for someone to teach him. There are any number of realistic reasons why short term needs have made it so, but he has had the opportunity to attend Saturday classes and declined as it interferes with his Kajukempo and Muay Thai. And while he was diligent in attending on a weekly basis, he was inclined to respond to correction with defenses such as "my Kajukempo training interferes with doing it that way". My intent is not to belittle this genuinely nice man, or any of the arts I've mentioned. I just think the entire scenario is illustrative of a situation where the student hasn't decided what art he is studying and lacks a certain understanding of some fundamental aspects of training in martial arts; like helping the junior students is beneficial to your own skills, and progress is a lifetime journey, not a sprint.

 

[Hyoho]

In Japan the original concept is lifetimes study and no belts. First and foremost Giri (duty) to ones teacher.

Funnily enough the biggest dropout rate is with 6th dan who should shoulder teaching and organizing responsibilities.

I highly respected teacher once told me, "Love your way, If you don't you should move on" But he was not refusing to Dojo hoppers.

Its such a waste of a good teachers time. No wonder in Kobudo you sweep up and make tea for few years before receiving instruction.

 

[oftheherd1]

A fellow student emailed me recently to tell me he was quitting Modern Arnis. He is a pleasant individual, and like me, getting into the long tooth period of life. He also had a prior history in a martial art and had returned to training. Work constraints prevented him from training in Arnis more than once a week but he was a diligent student and attended the Sunday class consistently. He also took great joy in relating the Kajukempo and Muay Thai training that he participated in on Saturdays. He was unable to attend special seminars with the MA Grandmaster and expressed frustration that it had taken him so long to advance to completion of the first level. The school has been fortunate enough to have had a significant influx of new students and the Master instructor and those of us with a little experience have been rather diligently trying to give the newbies the attention they need in the basics. Fellow student finally decided to quit because; he had finally achieved the first level and now was being "held back" because he was helping with the newest students (and in my opinion improving his skills as he helped teach), still primarily practicing the first level when he wanted to move on to another module (specifically knife defense) and there had been no time for someone to teach him. There are any number of realistic reasons why short term needs have made it so, but he has had the opportunity to attend Saturday classes and declined as it interferes with his Kajukempo and Muay Thai. And while he was diligent in attending on a weekly basis, he was inclined to respond to correction with defenses such as "my Kajukempo training interferes with doing it that way". My intent is not to belittle this genuinely nice man, or any of the arts I've mentioned. I just think the entire scenario is illustrative of a situation where the student hasn't decided what art he is studying and lacks a certain understanding of some fundamental aspects of training in martial arts; like helping the junior students is beneficial to your own skills, and progress is a lifetime journey, not a sprint.

That's a good illustration, but I think it really shows more of a problem with that student than with the idea of studying more than one art at a time. That said, I would probably prefer to only study one art at a time myself. That is both due to time and to a preference for Hapkido. If I were going to study something else, I would prefer to be able to devote time to that art alone. While part of that is time, I just really prefer my primary MA.

 

[DennisBreene]

That's a good illustration, but I think it really shows more of a problem with that student than with the idea of studying more than one art at a time. That said, I would probably prefer to only study one art at a time myself. That is both due to time and to a preference for Hapkido. If I were going to study something else, I would prefer to be able to devote time to that art alone. While part of that is time, I just really prefer my primary MA.

I agree and that's why I chose to start a separate thread. Not every student is an ideal candidate for the art they choose. For the most part, that is fine. The arts are well suited to accommodate individual aptitude and pace. What tends to be a problem is an intractable attitude.



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[Mark Lynn]

Dennis

To my knowledge we've never met, nor do I know what MA curriculum your studying. the school you go to etc. etc. But since you posted this, and I have (had) some similar issues with my classes, I'll give you my .02 cents, and if it doesn't apply or whatever please forgive me I mean no offense.

A fellow student emailed me recently to tell me he was quitting Modern Arnis. He is a pleasant individual, and like me, getting into the long tooth period of life. He also had a prior history in a martial art and had returned to training. Work constraints prevented him from training in Arnis more than once a week but he was a diligent student and attended the Sunday class consistently. He also took great joy in relating the Kajukempo and Muay Thai training that he participated in on Saturdays.
From the above I take it the person really enjoys the martial arts, since he trained before and comes back to it. Also he is studying three arts currently or at least a blend of two Kajukempo and Muay Thai, and then Moden Arnis. Being that he is a diligent student in attendance and he is devoting what it appears to be his weekend to the martial arts leads me to believe that he is interested, dedicated, and I think his needs aren't quite being met.

Again I don't know if he is paying tuition/dues etc. etc. but this could come down to a simple business decision, I'm paying this but I'm not really getting what I need to want to continue. I don't see this as a bad thing or a character flaw rather his needs have changed maybe. For instance I was introduced to the FMAs through attending a Guro Inosanto seminar (30 years ago) and over the years I went to several of them, however I stopped going; not because I fell out of favor with him, nor JKDC Kali etc. etc. but rather I was interested in the FMAs, and in the 90's-2000 period it seemed we spent more time on Boxing, Jan Fan, grappling, Silat and a little Kali. I wasn't getting what I wanted for the money I was spending to see him. I went to see other FMA seminars instead. Nothing against Guro Inosanto either, he was doing what the sponsors wanted teaching his material.

He was unable to attend special seminars with the MA Grandmaster and expressed frustration that it had taken him so long to advance to completion of the first level. The school has been fortunate enough to have had a significant influx of new students and the Master instructor and those of us with a little experience have been rather diligently trying to give the newbies the attention they need in the basics. Fellow student finally decided to quit because; he had finally achieved the first level and now was being "held back" because he was helping with the newest students (and in my opinion improving his skills as he helped teach), still primarily practicing the first level when he wanted to move on to another module (specifically knife defense) and there had been no time for someone to teach him.
I fully agree that you learn from teaching others, I do this in my school, in all of my programs. I encourage it and sometimes I use students who volunteer and sometimes I draft students (on a very limited basis) for a few minutes at a time showing foot work, teaching a basic kick, working on a kata etc. etc. However those the volunteer enjoy doing it and seek it out, face it other students might not enjoy it and if they are paying for it it might drive them away. Again in my TKD classes I'll have students purposely come in for the class before theirs to help out. Those students I use throughout the class, however sometimes I need an extra body to help a student with a self defense application, so I'll draft from those that are waiting on their class to begin (generally the next class) use them for a few minutes and then dismiss them. They are not there really to help out per say,they are there to learn and I as an instructor need to respect that.

I address the no time to teach him comment part of the comment below where I wrote about my two black belts.

There are any number of realistic reasons why short term needs have made it so, but he has had the opportunity to attend Saturday classes and declined as it interferes with his Kajukempo and Muay Thai. And while he was diligent in attending on a weekly basis, he was inclined to respond to correction with defenses such as "my Kajukempo training interferes with doing it that way".
​Here is where I believe a teaching opportunity is maybe missed. Modern Arnis was promoted as the "Art within your Art" by the Professor. This is why he would watch a Preying Mantis instructor interpret Anyo Isa (empty hand kata) with Preying Mantis style strikes and he would say "You've got it!" when the strikes looked nothing like Modern Arnis but instead it was Brush Grab Strike Mantis style. Perhaps you can see what the Kajukempo defense is and see if it fits within Modern Arnis, like "oh we've got that too, that is this type of defense and what we are doing now is this type of defense so you'll have more tools in your tool box so to speak" etc. etc. I understand where the gentleman's response is wrong, but we've all been there, in time we got over it and hopefully in time he might as well. I remember a friend trying to show me Hubud and being the all knowing Brown belt in TKD that I was dismissed it because it was to slow. Fast forward a few years and I was using the veritcal fist hubud sparring (oh wait, thats brush grab strike duh). We all make mistakes we just need time to see the bigger picture and the error in our ways.

My intent is not to belittle this genuinely nice man, or any of the arts I've mentioned. I just think the entire scenario is illustrative of a situation where the student hasn't decided what art he is studying and lacks a certain understanding of some fundamental aspects of training in martial arts; like helping the junior students is beneficial to your own skills, and progress is a lifetime journey, not a sprint.
I agree, however I think it can be something else here as well. Look everyone wants to move forward, they don't want to stay in the same place going over the same thing day after day after day. It gets boring for everyone. My two black belts Lakan and Dayang (husband and wife) that I promoted in Modern Arnis have had some of these same talks with me, back when they were training for black and now as black belts. I need to carve out time to train them to their next level, and frankly it's hard to carve that time out for them; we're all middle age, have families, work jobs, and they help with teaching duties for my Modern Arnis class 3X per week (I teach 5 days/nights a week). Believe me they want to see my classes grow and they are fully committed to them and yet they want to move forward as well and have asked for it. As an instructor it is my duty to arrange this for them, they are actively helping me teach my beginners, I still need to train them. Don't get me wrong they are getting better teaching the beginners, heck I'm getting better listen to them teach the beginners and getting out of the way sometimes. My students are benefiting it is a win win, but I have a duty to them to train them as well.

Like I said at the beginning I don't think this guys needs are being met if he is really interested in the class. If this gentlemen is paying for class and wanting to learn the next level and is stuck teaching beginners doing the same thing as he has for the past several months then I can see his frustration. I understand this can be because he isn't able to come but once a week etc. etc., he has opportunities to train on Saturday but doesn't because he is doing the Muay Thai and the Kajukempo, it is his own doing I get it. However if he is a paying customer he could be saying "my money could be spent elsewhere".

Here are some suggestions if you can do anything about it in order to maybe save the student.
1) Have the beginners work with other beginners for some drills and take the guy off to the side and work with him on some new material.
2) Have the class warm up with drills like the 12 AOA and have him do a different version like adding in a punch or a kick after every hit.
3) If the rest of the class is working on Anyos then (if it is within the curriculum) have him work on the next Anyo, when teaching applications (again if it is in the curriculum) show him more advanced ones or applications for the Anyo he is learning.
4) Have him and others (at his level or higher) work together while the head instructor works with the beginners (change out working partners).
5) If knife defense is part of the curriculum that he should be learning and this is what he wants to learn TEACH HIM, this is probably the simplest way to keep him.
6) If teaching him defense see if you could tie in his Muay Thai training, like adding in the low line kicks to his stick defenses, or have him close in with elbows etc. etc. when doing empty hand defense etc. etc. Not the same drills as the Muay Thai but drills that build on or show a different side of that art. Remember "The art within your art" this is what Modern Arnis was designed for.

I believe since the guy emailed you, you have some sort of relationship/friendship/dojo friend etc. etc. with him. Therefore you might talk with him outside of class and find out why he is quitting in hopes of talking him out of it. (I know he wants to learn knife defense, he feels he is being held back etc. etc. but he could be something deeper as well.) I don't think he is being disrespectful or that he is uninterested etc. etc. rather I think he is someone who is worth trying to save as a training partner.

Submitted with respect
Mark

 

[DennisBreene]

Dennis

To my knowledge we've never met, nor do I know what MA curriculum your studying. the school you go to etc. etc. But since you posted this, and I have (had) some similar issues with my classes, I'll give you my .02 cents, and if it doesn't apply or whatever please forgive me I mean no offense.



Here are some suggestions if you can do anything about it in order to maybe save the student.
1) Have the beginners work with other beginners for some drills and take the guy off to the side and work with him on some new material.
2) Have the class warm up with drills like the 12 AOA and have him do a different version like adding in a punch or a kick after every hit.
3) If the rest of the class is working on Anyos then (if it is within the curriculum) have him work on the next Anyo, when teaching applications (again if it is in the curriculum) show him more advanced ones or applications for the Anyo he is learning.
4) Have him and others (at his level or higher) work together while the head instructor works with the beginners (change out working partners).
5) If knife defense is part of the curriculum that he should be learning and this is what he wants to learn TEACH HIM, this is probably the simplest way to keep him.
6) If teaching him defense see if you could tie in his Muay Thai training, like adding in the low line kicks to his stick defenses, or have him close in with elbows etc. etc. when doing empty hand defense etc. etc. Not the same drills as the Muay Thai but drills that build on or show a different side of that art. Remember "The art within your art" this is what Modern Arnis was designed for.

I believe since the guy emailed you, you have some sort of relationship/friendship/dojo friend etc. etc. with him. Therefore you might talk with him outside of class and find out why he is quitting in hopes of talking him out of it. (I know he wants to learn knife defense, he feels he is being held back etc. etc. but he could be something deeper as well.) I don't think he is being disrespectful or that he is uninterested etc. etc. rather I think he is someone who is worth trying to save as a training partner.

Submitted with respect
Mark

Mark,
Thank you for your comments and your insight. As with all such stories there is much below the surface and relating all of the history is probably too time consuming. This is not a gentleman that any of us wish to see leave and that part of the story is not over. And, you are right in that he has chosen to communicate with a few of his fellow students and not the master instructor. In this case, it surprises me because the master instructor is imminently approachable. I do feel a certain responsibility to forward the info up the chain and try to help keep communication open. But to be fair, he literally passed his basics test on one week, came to class the next week, worked with a junior partner for that class as we all did and quit before the next class. He never told anyone of his concerns and certainly not that he wanted to jump up to knife defense. Knowing the gentleman and having interacted with him for some time now, I suspect that he was leaning toward the Kajukempo/Mouy Thai aspects and simply waited to pass the first test before quitting. For a dedicated student, I have noted that there is always a way to try and accommodate specific needs and that was and is certainly possible with this gentleman. My gut tells me that he had finally made the decision to commit to another art and simply wasn't very graceful in making his choice known. For me the larger issue is how to meet the students needs and the arts demands and how to help guide the individual in their choice of a personal art. His story was meant to be illustrative of the general issue of how we settle into our chosen arts as opposed to how we branch out from that art to additional areas of study. I hope it continues to engender discussion. It was not meant to be a condemnation of one man's path or choices. And certainly was not meant to be an attack on the individual involved. I also hope he finds his way back and continues to find value in all the areas he is studying.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Mark,
Thank you for your comments and your insight. As with all such stories there is much below the surface and relating all of the history is probably too time consuming. This is not a gentleman that any of us wish to see leave and that part of the story is not over. And, you are right in that he has chosen to communicate with a few of his fellow students and not the master instructor. In this case, it surprises me because the master instructor is imminently approachable. I do feel a certain responsibility to forward the info up the chain and try to help keep communication open. But to be fair, he literally passed his basics test on one week, came to class the next week, worked with a junior partner for that class as we all did and quit before the next class. He never told anyone of his concerns and certainly not that he wanted to jump up to knife defense. Knowing the gentleman and having interacted with him for some time now, I suspect that he was leaning toward the Kajukempo/Mouy Thai aspects and simply waited to pass the first test before quitting. For a dedicated student, I have noted that there is always a way to try and accommodate specific needs and that was and is certainly possible with this gentleman. My gut tells me that he had finally made the decision to commit to another art and simply wasn't very graceful in making his choice known. For me the larger issue is how to meet the students needs and the arts demands and how to help guide the individual in their choice of a personal art. His story was meant to be illustrative of the general issue of how we settle into our chosen arts as opposed to how we branch out from that art to additional areas of study. I hope it continues to engender discussion. It was not meant to be a condemnation of one man's path or choices. And certainly was not meant to be an attack on the individual involved. I also hope he finds his way back and continues to find value in all the areas he is studying.

Dennis
Just FYI I responded to the PM before I read this. And just to be clear I never thought you were condemning or putting this individual down in a malicious way.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I just think the entire scenario is illustrative of a situation where the student hasn't decided what art he is studying and lacks a certain understanding of some fundamental aspects of training in martial arts; like helping the junior students is beneficial to your own skills, and progress is a lifetime journey, not a sprint.

I agree and that's why I chose to start a separate thread. Not every student is an ideal candidate for the art they choose. For the most part, that is fine. The arts are well suited to accommodate individual aptitude and pace. What tends to be a problem is an intractable attitude.
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Mark,
For me the larger issue is how to meet the students needs and the arts demands and how to help guide the individual in their choice of a personal art. His story was meant to be illustrative of the general issue of how we settle into our chosen arts as opposed to how we branch out from that art to additional areas of study. I hope it continues to engender discussion. It was not meant to be a condemnation of one man's path or choices. And certainly was not meant to be an attack on the individual involved. I also hope he finds his way back and continues to find value in all the areas he is studying.

Dennis
I'm trying to stay with your general point of discussion, but I need some clarification as to what you are wanting to discuss in this thread. If I understand you correctly your thread was meant to be a counter point to learning a second art, or when to learn a second art. However I'm a bit confused because of the statements I've highlighted all about the same example that you used.

• The 1st one is about people studying multiple arts and not knowing really what he is studying.
• The 2nd one is saying that not everyone is suitable for the martial art they chosen
• The 3rd one is saying "how we settle into our chosen arts as opposed to how we branch out from that art to additional areas of study".

Discussing the merits and disadvantages of studying one art vs. two or more I believe can be a good topic to discuss, is this were you were going with the original post? If so would you mind giving us your thoughts on the topic.

I just didn't want to derail the thread by going on about your friend, so I thought I would try and get some more info to know what you really wanted to discuss.

Thanks
Mark

 

[DennisBreene]

Dennis
I'm trying to stay with your general point of discussion, but I need some clarification as to what you are wanting to discuss in this thread. If I understand you correctly your thread was meant to be a counter point to learning a second art, or when to learn a second art. However I'm a bit confused because of the statements I've highlighted all about the same example that you used.

• The 1st one is about people studying multiple arts and not knowing really what he is studying.
• The 2nd one is saying that not everyone is suitable for the martial art they chosen
• The 3rd one is saying "how we settle into our chosen arts as opposed to how we branch out from that art to additional areas of study".

Discussing the merits and disadvantages of studying one art vs. two or more I believe can be a good topic to discuss, is this were you were going with the original post? If so would you mind giving us your thoughts on the topic.

I just didn't want to derail the thread by going on about your friend, so I thought I would try and get some more info to know what you really wanted to discuss.

Thanks
Mark

Thanks Mark,
The original thread "How easy is it to learn a second art" seems to follow from the premise of having a first art (though not necessarily mastery) and then adding additional arts in a somewhat planned fashion.. While my thread has commonalities, I'm more interested in the process of finding the art that suits you and the merits or problems with shopping around. How much do you take on at once? How long to you attempt an art before you decide it doesn't fit? And, as with my friend, how do you seek guidance and counsel from superiors in this choice? What responsibilities do we as students owe to the art we select and the process of choosing? I've intentionally left it a bit open ended as I don't want to unnecessarily restrict the direction of the discussion. If it turns out that I am essentially reprising the first thread I will defer to the collective wisdom and we can either let this thread die or roll it into the first thread. I used counterpoint in a musical sense as opposed to intending a conflicting opinion. I view the discussion as a corollary issue about style selection and compatibility.

 

[jks9199]

I agree; there are a couple issues in this student leaving the arnis program.

First, it sounds like his training there isn't going quite how he wants it to and envisioned it. That's kind of common. It seems like he perhaps was focused on the first level as a special doorway, and isn't seeing how teaching can help him. Maybe that's a fault of the instructor for not explaining the situation, maybe it's bad expectations, maybe it's just what it is. That's not uncommon, and I know I've seen it a lot at two or three main points in a student's training. The first is when they first begin, and they find out that there's no fortune-cookie spouting teacher handing the secrets out, but that there's a lot of work. (Or that the format for some other reason isn't what they wanted or expected.) The second is a mid-point, often in the brown belt range. They've stopped making big leaps in skills, and it's down to the grind until they get black belt. It's kind of a plateau and it takes a kind of grit or drive to get through. The last is at first level -- they made it, and there's no magic that pops up.

Second, it sounds like his time is tight. And I don't fault someone for changing what they're doing if time is tight, and it's not quite what they want, no matter the reason. This kind of loops into my third observation...

Which is that he's invested in his training in the other arts a bit more heavily than in arnis. Don't know why, it doesn't really matter -- but when I deal with comments that amount to "I won't do what you're teaching because I do it differently in art X"... I just drop it. I see where they are, and I don't bother to correct them. They don't want to or won't hear what I'm saying and teaching. It's the old "empty your cup" story...

But that's also a headache with training in multiple styles at the same time. If they principles don't mesh -- you'll be fighting yourself every time you turn around. My teacher told us a story about a time, years ago, when he was invited to an open, black-belt only training class by some rather senior black belt in another style. After a class where the instructor kept correcting my teacher's fist position to something different from our art, my teacher realized that he was wasting his time. The time he was spending with this guy was time he wasn't practicing the lessons from his own teacher...

My personal practice... I'll visit another school, I'll play with another style, trade techniques and strategies, see how they work... But I come back to my base. Sometimes I'll bring something back, work with it until I can adjust it to our principles, but other times? It was an experience, and a chance to see what they've got.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Dennis

Thanks for the clarification and the PM

Thanks Mark,
The original thread "How easy is it to learn a second art" seems to follow from the premise of having a first art (though not necessarily mastery) and then adding additional arts in a somewhat planned fashion.. While my thread has commonalities, I'm more interested in the process of finding the art that suits you and the merits or problems with shopping around.

I think martial arts are so prevalent today that most everyone has some sort of an preconceived idea prior to ever stepping foot in the dojo. I honestly get a response that someone in a family has taken or been exposed to the martial arts in some fashion or another in about 80% of the people who come seeking instruction about my classes or like at a recent promotion event at a city festival with the general public who stopped by our booth.

Most often it is I took karate/TKD in my youth or the husband did etc. etc. But the reasons why a parent wants a kid to take it and the reason why a kid wants to take it are completely different. The parents might want the kid to learn discipline, self control, deal with bullying issues etc. etc. and the kid wants to have fun and kick things.

Fast forward a bunch of years and that kid is now a older teenager/young adult/college student/husband or a housewife/mother or father and they for whatever reason want to start martial arts but all they really remember is that they took it when they were young and they hit and kicked things or wrestled with people on the ground and whether or not that experience was good or bad (how they felt about it).

So as an instructor I talk with them and see what their interests are, what their goals are, and see if my program can help achieve them. I use the term my program because you could also insert any art there. However for the most part I think it is the school or program 1st and the martial art 2nd. Granted it can be the other way around as well but for general learning I believe it is the school 1st.

For instance Karate/TKD/Kung Fu can be taught from a very traditional mind set, it can be taught from a very eclectic mindset, a very competitive mindset, all teaching the same "martial art" that's why I said if "my program" can help them.

How much do you take on at once? How long to you attempt an art before you decide it doesn't fit?

As an instructor I believe you (or the student) should give it time, although you can sometimes start to see it in students about the time they have made into the early intermediate ranks whether or not the art fits. For instance I have some students that naturally kick high, are naturally flexible, they are aggressive when they spar and they thrive on it, they are a good fit for my TKD program. I have others that avoid contact, they have space issues or maybe confidence issues, they flow in their kata but they don't seem as good as the others that kick high and have excellent form. These students might be a better fit for my arnis program.

So I look for different qualities in the student along with their interests to guide them into each program.

As to how much do you take in at once, I believe that needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. For instance take my Modern Arnis or Presas arnis program; in the beginner level you learn double stick drills, single stick drills, and empty hand. These skill sets build upon one anther so the student isn't learning three separate arts such as Kobudo, TKD, and Modern Arnis (I teach all of these). Nor are they learning three arts like Muay Thai Boxing, Kajukempo, and Modern Arnis (such as the example given at the start of the thread) but then they aren't just learning a empty hand art like TKD or karate either. In fact many more traditional TMA instructors would frown on anyone learning weapons as beginner in the first place. Yet I have 10, 12, and 13 yr olds in class doing fine as beginners in Modern Arnis.

And, as with my friend, how do you seek guidance and counsel from superiors in this choice? What responsibilities do we as students owe to the art we select and the process of choosing? I've intentionally left it a bit open ended as I don't want to unnecessarily restrict the direction of the discussion. If it turns out that I am essentially reprising the first thread I will defer to the collective wisdom and we can either let this thread die or roll it into the first thread. I used counterpoint in a musical sense as opposed to intending a conflicting opinion. I view the discussion as a corollary issue about style selection and compatibility.

I was lucky in that when I first sought out guidance about checking out other arts my instructor gave his approval, I was an Orange belt and 19 at the time, and that was my first exposure to the FMAs. 32 years later still going strong in both arts (well in Modern Arnis instead of JKD Kali but still involved in the FMAs ). While I believe we as students bear the ultimate responsibility in choosing which art, I also believe we as instructors have a responsibility to guide our students if we think they might be better in a different program rather than just collecting a paycheck.

However what we owe to the art we choose is nothing really. We owe no allegiance, nothing makes us adhere to that art's principles from here on out, we don't bind ourselves to the art. We can choose to obey it's tenets, we can choose to obey it's rules etc. etc. but there is no secret police making sure we do. Unless we say we are teaching this art and then we need to teach that art, otherwise that would be false advertising. This said it is the school that you are bound to while training in the school, for instance I have a rule that if a student starts a fight in school and I find out then they aren't allowed to come back. If is is a defensive situation that's different but I don't want kids going out and trying out techniques on other kids to see if they work etc. etc. That is a school rule and I as the instructor will choose to enforce it like the student will choose or not to obey it.

However what the student needs to adhere to when training in the school is "When in Rome do what the Romans do" that is do what the instructor is teaching not what you want to do (unless you have the latitude to do it within the confines of what you are practicing) For instance like in TKD if we are doing freestyle one steps then the student has much more freedom to create his one step. However if I say show me one step #3 they better be showing me or working on one step #3 and not their own creation.

 

[K-man]

In Japan the original concept is lifetimes study and no belts. First and foremost Giri (duty) to ones teacher.

Funnily enough the biggest dropout rate is with 6th dan who should shoulder teaching and organizing responsibilities.

I highly respected teacher once told me, "Love your way, If you don't you should move on" But he was not refusing to Dojo hoppers.

Its such a waste of a good teachers time. No wonder in Kobudo you sweep up and make tea for few years before receiving instruction.

This is certainly not the way of the early Okinawan practitioners although it is far more likely the case in Japan. In the early days in Okinawa the students were encouraged to cross train. The schools at Naha, Shuri and Tomari were within walking distance and they all moved about. Beyond that, many of the karate guys learned Judo and still do. Miyazato, the head of the Jundokan line of Goju Ryu, for example was a 7th dan Judoka and became All Okinawan Judo Champion. Masaji Taira, one of Miyazato's top students is a 4th dan Judoka.

Very few schools I have seen teach everything to the standard of excellence available in a more specialised school. For example, if I wanted to learn ground work I would study BJJ, if I wanted to throw people I would study Judo, for locks, holds and utilising my opponent's strength, Aikido etc.

As a karate instructor I teach those skills to the best of my knowledge and ability and for most students, that is sufficient. But for those that want to be better, they need to cross train.

None of that means "we don't love our way".
:asian:

 

[ballen0351]

I'm a dojo hopper. I have my main art that I stay with but I hop from style to style. Not on purpose I guess. Its more like there are so many neat things out there I want to try them all. I'll do one for a while and then I'll see a clip on you tube or TV of another style and I'm like hmmm i wanna try that and off I go to find a school. There is just so much good stuff out there to learn. I feel like Johnny 5. More input

 

[K-man]

I'm a dojo hopper. I have my main art that I stay with but I hop from style to style. Not on purpose I guess. Its more like there are so many neat things out there I want to try them all. I'll do one for a while and then I'll see a clip on you tube or TV of another style and I'm like hmmm i wanna try that and off I go to find a school. There is just so much good stuff out there to learn. I feel like Johnny 5. More input

Good point, but because my dojo is my school I just have to go, have a look and come back. Same, same. Martial arts is a smorgasbord. There are many tasty morsels available and you don't need to eat everything. What I normally do is bring some of the more tasty bits back for my troops.
:asian:

 

[DennisBreene]

Good point, but because my dojo is my school I just have to go, have a look and come back. Same, same. Martial arts is a smorgasbord. There are many tasty morsels available and you don't need to eat everything. What I normally do is bring some of the more tasty bits back for my troops.
:asian:

I'm a dojo hopper. I have my main art that I stay with but I hop from style to style. Not on purpose I guess. Its more like there are so many neat things out there I want to try them all. I'll do one for a while and then I'll see a clip on you tube or TV of another style and I'm like hmmm i wanna try that and off I go to find a school. There is just so much good stuff out there to learn. I feel like Johnny 5. More input

It's my impression that in both cases you are doing this with a great deal of prior experience. Does this improve your ability to identify those "bits" that augment what you already know? If you are a relative novice, would such an approach be as likely to work, or would it tend to muddy your mastery of some fundamental techniques that act as a framework for you to move forward?

 

[punisher73]

In my experiences, I have not had a student train in two arts that didn't have issues with what I was trying to share.

1) first student came from a very hard style of karate and couldn't let go of the mechanics to learn our method of a more relaxed snapping type punch
2) second student was a BB in another style and no matter what the drill, he would want to change it and show how "they did it" in his other style. Would not empty his cup to see other ways
3) third student was a "dojo/seminar hopper" who had no base in anything and only wanted to share how so and so did it at their seminar. He had NO foundation with which to make anything work no mattter where it was pulled from.

I have come across other students in our style that did come from other backgrounds, but it was so different (judo vs. karate) that it didn't interfere with their mechanics or they did not like their other style and worked very hard to "unwire" what they had learned previously.

I think that it is VERY rare for someone to learn different styles without polluting the second style. By that I mean, they will always retain a flavor of the mechanics from that first style and it bleeds over to the second style. Sometimes this doesn't matter when the styles are close enough in technique and delivery and it is just a matter of learning different katas. But other times, the delivery method is so different that to have obtained mastery in the first will always interfere with the second because they are too different.

 

[K-man]

It's my impression that in both cases you are doing this with a great deal of prior experience. Does this improve your ability to identify those "bits" that augment what you already know? If you are a relative novice, would such an approach be as likely to work, or would it tend to muddy your mastery of some fundamental techniques that act as a framework for you to move forward?

Short answer, I was a BB before looking around. Whether a second art is appropriate at an earlier time possibly depends on the art you practise. If you were training Aikido and started Karate, forget Aikido. The Karate will stuff your Aikido. If you were doing Karate and started looking at BJJ or Judo, possibly no problem.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

I think that it is VERY rare for someone to learn different styles without polluting the second style. By that I mean, they will always retain a flavor of the mechanics from that first style and it bleeds over to the second style. Sometimes this doesn't matter when the styles are close enough in technique and delivery and it is just a matter of learning different katas. But other times, the delivery method is so different that to have obtained mastery in the first will always interfere with the second because they are too different.

I think most people would consider Aikido and Karate as pretty much opposites. Karate is my first style and I have been studying Aikido for about eight years. I don't have a problem keeping them separate when I am Aikidoka. I don't have problems in the karate dojo either because the Aikido principles fit perfectly with Goju Karate principles.

But I do agree. Potentially there can be problems.
:asian:

 

[ballen0351]

It's my impression that in both cases you are doing this with a great deal of prior experience. Does this improve your ability to identify those "bits" that augment what you already know? If you are a relative novice, would such an approach be as likely to work, or would it tend to muddy your mastery of some fundamental techniques that act as a framework for you to move forward?

I think you def need a base first. If not and you just bounce from place to place you won't get much out of it. For example. Goju is my main style but other styles like Judo and Aikido have actually helped my Goju. Things like leg sweeps while taught in Goju it wasn't to the detail as in Judo so now I have an even better understanding of that part of my Goju. Aikido helped me with the hard vs soft aspects of my Goju. The other styles I've learned that are totally different then Goju like BJJ I think my Goju gave me a better foundation for starting standing moving in close and taking someone down. I found guys that only did BJJ tended to use the grab and fall into guard and pull the other guy down with them. Then other non similar styles no matter what basics for the most part are similar a from kick is a front kick is a front kick your style may have a slight difference then mine but its basically the same so I can get through the basic parts of new styles quickly and get into more meat and potatos so to speak