45 Degree kick

[puunui]

See again we seem to be looking at the same thing not seeing or hearing one another. I never said anything about not turning the sholders or even the hips for that matter. Just the angle of the fist kick in a double. Even on triples you need to turn the hip and shoulders but the angle of the first kick is always a the lightest the lowest and most times at a 45 or even straight up and down (front kick). Think of it as a starter kick or primer kick. It is not your intended scoreing kick. Not every technique will land nor should you try to make every technique land. Now you can do that on someone that is not any good, yes.

I know exactly what you are talking about. You are not the first to say go 45 on the first kick on double kick or that you should aim it below the waist. If you want to do it that way, go ahead.

 

[vikings827]

45/90 degrees?


(90 degree being bringing your back leg around for a kick? What 45 degrees?)

I never paid much attention to the degrees of kicking:
Front leg, back leg, and spinning/turning, never past a full rotation.


But you should take care of that round kick pivot leg. I do believe - or so I have been taught - it's the proper mechanics that might help prevent injury down the road. Not to mention it telegraphs how high you are going to kick.

I was out of TKD for 35 years. when I went back at age 56, I used this 45-90 degree pivot for 3 months, then I tore my medial meniscus on my left leg. I won't be doing any 45-90 kicks, it will be 135 or 180 (my heel facing my target). If you are young go for the shorter pivot, it is a little faster and speed wins.

 

[thelegendxp]

Just to get rid of some confusion some people seem to have, the "45" refers to the angle of the direction of the path of the foot to the vertical axis from the ground, or a standing person. If you kick vertically upwards, it will be 0 degrees, and if you kick perfectly horizontally, it would be a 90 degrees kick.

Having said that, I recently tranferred from a KKW TKD in South Korea to a ITF TKD in Massachusetts. I was taught both the 45 and the 90 in the KKW/WTF style, but I often find 45 faster, more powerful, and safer on a missed shot. But when I transferred to ITF, the master keeps telling me never to do 45 kicks. So I started doing a 45 with a higher angle (more horizontal) to make it about 75 so I can still keep the advantages, but the master insists on a more horizontal kick because " will hurt my foot on an opponent's elbow with a non-90 kick." I don't have much experience in ITF style sparring, so I want to ask you guys: is it really dangerous against the elbow guard? Is the risk big enough that I should consider a switch to a full 90 kick?

 

[ATC]

Just to get rid of some confusion some people seem to have, the "45" refers to the angle of the direction of the path of the foot to the vertical axis from the ground, or a standing person. If you kick vertically upwards, it will be 0 degrees, and if you kick perfectly horizontally, it would be a 90 degrees kick.

Having said that, I recently tranferred from a KKW TKD in South Korea to a ITF TKD in Massachusetts. I was taught both the 45 and the 90 in the KKW/WTF style, but I often find 45 faster, more powerful, and safer on a missed shot. But when I transferred to ITF, the master keeps telling me never to do 45 kicks. So I started doing a 45 with a higher angle (more horizontal) to make it about 75 so I can still keep the advantages, but the master insists on a more horizontal kick because " will hurt my foot on an opponent's elbow with a non-90 kick." I don't have much experience in ITF style sparring, so I want to ask you guys: is it really dangerous against the elbow guard? Is the risk big enough that I should consider a switch to a full 90 kick?

Yes this is true. We teach both kicks and the 90 kick is used vs. elbows that brace for impact.

As I have already stated the two kicks have their place.

 

[thelegendxp]

since there is always a threat of elbow blocks, then is it not wise to only throw 90 kicks as my master asserts? On the other hand, I see Hwang Su Il, a very successful practitioner in ITF throwing these 45 kicks every time. What would you advise that I do in order to choose which kicks to use when? I'm trying to keep both kicks in the playbook, but it seems like people prefer to do either one of the kicks, and each kicks seem to have very reasonable advantages.

 

[Cyriacus]

Personally, i like both of the kicks.

The 90 Degree version i find more powerful, but highly situational for effectiveness.
The 45 Degree version i find less powerful, not much faster, but able to go where a 90 Degree version perhaps cant.

For example - Yesterday, i used a 45 Degree version effectively to get into someones torso, whilst distracting them with a flurry of punches; And its a very easy kick to chain in.
A 90 Degree version would have been impractical at the time.

since there is always a threat of elbow blocks, then is it not wise to only throw 90 kicks as my master asserts? On the other hand, I see Hwang Su Il, a very successful practitioner in ITF throwing these 45 kicks every time. What would you advise that I do in order to choose which kicks to use when? I'm trying to keep both kicks in the playbook, but it seems like people prefer to do either one of the kicks, and each kicks seem to have very reasonable advantages.

Try not to do Kicks for the sake of doing Kicks.
But in answer to your question, the 45 Degree Kick i find, is best used when your Opponent is covering his face, or upper torso, making it easy to slide one of them in.
And if you make it a double, just make sure to aim the second higher than the first.
Also, Elbow blocks only happen if you make a miscalculation. Optionally, aim higher, and deliberately hit the forearms.
It works.

 

[thelegendxp]

Yes, that's true. The real benefit of 45s is that it can be put in a combo easily because it doesn't involve a full body commitment, and it is a little bit more versatile in terms of distance& situations. What would be the advantage of a 90 degree kick?

Aren't high kicks better with 90 then 45? even 45 kicks end up being 65 when it's high. Someone did tell me that if a 45 is low enough, it will always be clear from the elbow.

Do you mind clarifying what you mean by the 'miscalcualtion?'

Thank you in advance!

 

[Cyriacus]

Yes, that's true. The real benefit of 45s is that it can be put in a combo easily because it doesn't involve a full body commitment, and it is a little bit more versatile in terms of distance& situations. What would be the advantage of a 90 degree kick?

Aren't high kicks better with 90 then 45? even 45 kicks end up being 65 when it's high. Someone did tell me that if a 45 is low enough, it will always be clear from the elbow.

Do you mind clarifying what you mean by the 'miscalcualtion?'

Thank you in advance!

Sure thing.
A miscalculation is more of a misjudgement.
For example, you dont try and punch someone in the solar plexus, if it means punching their bare elbow, whilst they hammer in to your exposed face.
Or trying to do a Back Kick at close range, and falling on your face when you get him in the back of the head.

The 90 Degree kick is alot more powerful, and can go where a 45 cant. You could also make it a 100-120 degree kick, and kick at a downward angle.

You can do a high 45, but you need flexible hips and strong quads.

The 45 can be clear of the elbow at chest height. Its all about angle. For example; In Boxing, if faced with an opponent in a perfect stance, you dont attack their body or head, because you cant. You attack their stance itself. Much in the same way, if im faced with a perfect defencive stance, a 90 degree kick to the hands (It hits the forearms nigh always, but i am for the hands) can throw someone back 1-3 steps, but more importantly, weakens their arms, and their guard.
If im faced with a close distance stance, a 45 degree kick can get from the ground to my targets ribs very quickly, but it isnt likely to break anything.

As for high kicks, it depends on your Target. The main thing is that the shoulders can get in the way. Therefore, the person needs to be in the opposite stance to you, creating an open stance situation. Optionally, use your front leg. That way, the shoulders will not get in the way, and its possible to literally uppercut someones jaw with your Instep.

On the flipside again, Round Kicks of any shape or form are the easiest kicks of all to block, in my opinion. Which is why i say theyre Opportunistic, unless your just trying to pound someones Stance.

Its slightly complicated, but if you find a pillar, support beam, corner of a wall, something like that.
Stand at different angles to it, and just on the spot, perform the movement of both kicks, and see how differently both connect.

 

[Rumy73]

Andy,

I think you have some confusion in your terminology. Peet-chagi is a reverse roundhouse kick. It is used in traditional Korean styles like Soo Bahk Do and others.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bkaeg/4945063224/

Traditional roundhouse kick calls for the hip to turnover so that the leg strikes at a 90 degree angle and the supporting foot turns 180 degrees. Kicking at 45 degrees is a recent phenomena, which is has application in sports. The former generates much more power and the latter is for quick striking.

Concerning the term "roundhouse," if you dislike it, then use the Korean term - Dollyo Chagi.

Best,

Rumy

I've heard talk about students coming over to a new club and the new club has to untrain them from performing 45 degree kicks (Beet-chagi). At the club I train at we do 45 degree kicks, but I'm soon starting my own club. I also practice doing more round-kick* style as I know it's more modern and I understand the reasoning behind not doing 45 degree kicks (elbows, more power). However, before I drop them from my newly created syllabus I wanted to ask the group:

Do you still practice/teach half-turning kicks?

When I do a 90 degree turning kick (round kick to the body) I tend not to turn my supporting foot all the way to face the rear (but do when kicking to the head). Is this how people generally do it?

* I hate the term roundhouse kick - probably because that was always the term Karate used near where I live and it was always completely different to Taekwondo's turning kick. It's probably a hang-up I can lose now, but I'm used to hating the term ;-)

 

[andyjeffries]

I think you have some confusion in your terminology. Peet-chagi is a reverse roundhouse kick.

Peet chagi is a common enough term for the 45 degree kick that others on here recognised it, but the Kukkiwon now seems to prefer "Bandal Chagi" (from the textbook). However, you then go on to say this:

It is used in traditional Korean styles like Soo Bahk Do and others.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bkaeg/4945063224/

Within Taekwondo this kick is called a "Bituro Chagi". Where did you learn that this kick is called "peet chagi" from? Also, have you not heard the term "peet chagi" in relation to Taekwondo?

Traditional roundhouse kick calls for the hip to turnover so that the leg strikes at a 90 degree angle and the supporting foot turns 180 degrees. Kicking at 45 degrees is a recent phenomena, which is has application in sports. The former generates much more power and the latter is for quick striking.

Thanks for that ;-) ;-) ;-)

Concerning the term "roundhouse," if you dislike it, then use the Korean term - Dollyo Chagi.

We do perform and use the term Dollyo chagi (but we use the English translation of "turning kick" which is actually a closer translation than "roundhouse kick") but we also do peet chagi ("half-turning kick"). Apparently we're in the minority still using peet-chagi as our bread and butter as most of the world is now using dollyo chagi to mid-section.

 

[thelegendxp]

Sure thing.
A miscalculation is more of a misjudgement.
For example, you dont try and punch someone in the solar plexus, if it means punching their bare elbow, whilst they hammer in to your exposed face.
Or trying to do a Back Kick at close range, and falling on your face when you get him in the back of the head.

The 90 Degree kick is alot more powerful, and can go where a 45 cant. You could also make it a 100-120 degree kick, and kick at a downward angle.

You can do a high 45, but you need flexible hips and strong quads.

The 45 can be clear of the elbow at chest height. Its all about angle. For example; In Boxing, if faced with an opponent in a perfect stance, you dont attack their body or head, because you cant. You attack their stance itself. Much in the same way, if im faced with a perfect defencive stance, a 90 degree kick to the hands (It hits the forearms nigh always, but i am for the hands) can throw someone back 1-3 steps, but more importantly, weakens their arms, and their guard.
If im faced with a close distance stance, a 45 degree kick can get from the ground to my targets ribs very quickly, but it isnt likely to break anything.

As for high kicks, it depends on your Target. The main thing is that the shoulders can get in the way. Therefore, the person needs to be in the opposite stance to you, creating an open stance situation. Optionally, use your front leg. That way, the shoulders will not get in the way, and its possible to literally uppercut someones jaw with your Instep.

On the flipside again, Round Kicks of any shape or form are the easiest kicks of all to block, in my opinion. Which is why i say theyre Opportunistic, unless your just trying to pound someones Stance.

Its slightly complicated, but if you find a pillar, support beam, corner of a wall, something like that.
Stand at different angles to it, and just on the spot, perform the movement of both kicks, and see how differently both connect.

I see. with a tight guard like kick boxing, muay thai, etc. it would not be too wise to throw 45s often, while 90 can be thrown sparingly like left jabs.

I feel like 45s are only clear on lower abdomen and above chest: because of its nature to strike slightly upwards, it tends to brush up and end up hitting the either of the elbows if the pivotting knee does not reach in far enough, or if the other person backs up even a slight bit. Do you have any first-hand experiences of using 45s in situations where the person is guarding upperbody fairly well?

Thank you for your very elaborate clarification!

 

[Cyriacus]

I see. with a tight guard like kick boxing, muay thai, etc. it would not be too wise to throw 45s often, while 90 can be thrown sparingly like left jabs.

I feel like 45s are only clear on lower abdomen and above chest: because of its nature to strike slightly upwards, it tends to brush up and end up hitting the either of the elbows if the pivotting knee does not reach in far enough, or if the other person backs up even a slight bit. Do you have any first-hand experiences of using 45s in situations where the person is guarding upperbody fairly well?

Thank you for your very elaborate clarification!

Yep - I also have a Photo, somewere. (Emphasis on Somewere. I have no idea where i would have put it.)

I tend to use them as an Aggressive Counter Attack, or as a way to Close Distance.

But as an example;

Sparring, same Rank;
In a Closed Stance Situation. (Both in the same Stance. In this case, Right Foot Back)
Both of us are in a Strong Stance, about 30 Centimeters between the tips of our Toes.
He Performs a Right... Eh... I think it was a Hook. It may have been an Overhand. I didnt exactly wait and see.
I perform a quick Jab, then catch a Backfist with my other hand.
He performs a Front Hand Uppercut.
I perform another Jab, and shuffle up.
Then Raised my Right Hand as if to punch as a distraction, and used it to generate reverse power (I pulled it back to my hip) on a 45 Degree Instep Kick to the general area of his Floating Ribs.
Attacking his guard would have quickly resulted in him reversing it against me.
In attacking his face, i forced him to guard up. I led him to believe i was performing a One>Two Combination.
It was unblockable, since if he lowered his arms to block it if he did see it coming, i could then punch his head.
If he kept his hands up, my Kick connects.
If he tries to Counterattack, its too late for that; Plus i have momentum.

Simplified;
Lean Back to Avoid Hook > Block Backfist from Hook > Jab and Shuffle Up > Feint Cross Punch > 45 Degree Kick.
Combination for Dummies;
Jab > Punch > Kick

In Kickboxing or Muay Thai, id recommend using it to attack the Hip/Thigh, as oppose to the Torso.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I know a lot of people teach 45 degree kicks and 90 degree kicks and have reasons for doing so, but in my experience most of the people I see doing 45 degree round kicks aren't doing it intentionally. I know many people do it on purpose, but I think many others just have lazy technique and don't turn over the hip/pivot the base foot.

 

[ATC]

Posted to the wrong thread. Sorry. Ignore this post please.