.40 or .45???

[chinto]

It's worth mentioning that SEAL candidates actually train with the Sig P226 (there's actually a Naval Special Warfare commemorative edition) in BUD/S and of course the venerable MP5 is chambered for 9mm. It's also my understanding that the choice of sidearm for most special operators is at their discretion. I'm sure though that if you were somehow able to look at the statistics of the calibers used in special operations encounters, you'd find that the 5.56mm round is going to be the clear winner. The sidearm is a last resort.

The last murder statistics I looked at also point to the 9mm as being the leading caliber used in homicides, followed by .38, .357, and .22. There are a lot of factors involved there though. Most gun crimes aren't committed by gun aficionados so they're going to use whatever is cheap and convenient. Being high capacity may come into play as well.

Most of the ballistic gelatin penetration testing I've seen show the most common self defense rounds being pretty comparable. The .357 Sig and .45 seemed to come out on top though. The wound channels for both rounds were pretty comparable as was penetration. Here's a visual reference:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo325/frostbite77/handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

Notice though that the 9mm and .40S&W aren't that far off from the others. Essentially, you're trading energy (penetration) for channeling (expansion).

I'm not disagreeing that the .45 is a great round but as far as it being more lethal than a 9mm or even a .22... Well, let's just say I'd rather not be the one to test that theory.

go ask a good ER doctor who has dealt with a lot of Gun Shot Wound situations,and they will tell you that when its for real, and people get shot bore diameter makes the largest difference in a pistol type weapon in regards to lethality! ... A RIFLE IS A DIFFERENT SITUATION OF COURSE.

 

[HM2PAC]

go ask a good ER doctor who has dealt with a lot of Gun Shot Wound situations,and they will tell you that when its for real, and people get shot bore diameter makes the largest difference in a pistol type weapon in regards to lethality!

When someone comes into our trauma bay with a GSW, caliber is a second thought. Rifle vs pistol does matter. Most of the physicians that I work with don't know the difference btwn a .22LR and a 10mm.

When the patient gets to us we are only worried about what is damaged and how to change what is happening.

 

[KenpoTex]

I saw an quote from an ER doctor (and IIRC, former SF medic) that said that even after seeing hundreds of GSWs, he couldn't tell the difference between the common calibers just by looking at the wound.

Don't remember exactly where I saw it...

 

[Grenadier]

I saw an quote from an ER doctor (and IIRC, former SF medic) that said that even after seeing hundreds of GSWs, he couldn't tell the difference between the common calibers just by looking at the wound.

Don't remember exactly where I saw it...

In this day and age of premium ammunition, that would hold even more weight.

Today's premium designs have progressed to the point, where I would have equal confidence in the ability of a 9 mm, .40, 357 Sig, 10 mm, .45 ACP, etc., to stop the bad guy.

No longer are today's hollowpoints reliant on high velocities, and you can get really good performance (for a handgun round) using combinations that were previously thought of as being forbidden. For example, subsonic 9 mm loads, etc.

 

[elder999]

I think a key question is missed in the assumption that the potential target is a person:

To shoot at what?

For years, my normal carries have been 9mm and .45's.

Both are inadequate or somewhat inadequate for bears, though-and the wife and I ride and hike in bear country quite a bit. While I love bears, and hope to never have to shoot one, I want the bear to lie down if I do.

.45 ACP is okay for black bears, .40 is good.

10mm is best, since carrying one of those big revolvers (.454, etc.) is kind of difficult on a bike. And since we carry the Glocks so much when we go afield, and are taking them to the range so much, I find myself carrying it the rest of the time as well.....though we're considering the switch to .40 (ballistitcally not too different, but easier to carry.....)

For a man, though? I reckon any of them will do, if you shoot straight. (I'm likely to empty a whole magazine into a bear, anyway......)

 

[HM2PAC]

KenpoTex wrote:

I saw an quote from an ER doctor (and IIRC, former SF medic) that said that even after seeing hundreds of GSWs, he couldn't tell the difference between the common calibers just by looking at the wound.

That makes sense to me.

I have lost track of the GSW's I've seen over the last 20 years. Was it a 9mm, 357RM, 45ACP, ...etc? They all blend into a big collection of GSW's that had mixed outcomes. Hundreds of victims/patients hit with anything from air rifles to BP rifles.

However, the oddballs stick out and are memorable.

357SIG made a gaping wound in the thigh.

50 BMG removed an entire scapula and part of a neck and upper lung.

5.56NATO tiny entrance over the left cheek under the eye, nothing left of the back of the head.

BB guns that made little to no obvious entry wound but deposited 2 BB's in the right kidney from a single shot.

As far as I'm concerned, the 9 vs 40 vs 45 vs "X" is a moot point when todays premium JHP ammo is figured into the equation.

 

[seasoned]

Law enforcement in NYS did carry 9mm but changed to the 40mm because it still handled well but had more stopping power. Recently NYS Troopers switched to a 45mm because of some problems they had with a rash of deadly encounters. I personally feel that the 45mm is a good man stopper but it takes more training to be able to handle it in a life and death situation. At this point in time as a Constable while on duty I carry a Glock 40mm modle 23 of which I am very pleased. It is interchangeable with other departments, has on duty stopping power and an off duty concealment advantage because it is a tad smaller then the standard model 21.

 

[Grenadier]

Law enforcement in NYS did carry 9mm but changed to the 40mm because it still handled well but had more stopping power.

Yow!!! They're issuing 40mm anti-aircraft weaponry now?!? That's certainly going to be a better manstopper than any pistol.



(Just joking here)



In all seriousness, though, it does seem that the .40 cartridge has become the most popular law enforcement choice these days, since it those who wanted a bigger bore, while still retaining more of the 9 mm velocity, can get a blend of both worlds. If anything, the plurality of law enforcement agencies seemed to have settled on the Glock 22 full sized pistol, as their standard issue. You get 15+1 rounds of .40 ammo, with ironclad reliability.

Those using other cartridges, though, need not worry, as long as decent ammunition is being used. I know that several agencies in Georgia are still issuing the Glock 17 (9mm), and use the tried and true Federal BPLE 115 grain +P+ JHP load, and they've been very pleased with its performance.

The NYPD seems to be similarly pleased with the 9 mm Speer Gold Dot +P 124 grain JHP load as well.

 

[seasoned]

Thanks, it would be nice to know what I am carrying, and the proper terminology for it. Anyways I grabbed the ammo box and for range it is Winchester 40S&W 165gr. Full metal jacket target/range. For duty it is 40S&W 180gr. JHP. Also it is a glock 40 model 23, I know because it is written on the barrel. J

 

[Frostbite]

Thanks, it would be nice to know what I am carrying, and the proper terminology for it. Anyways I grabbed the ammo box and for range it is Winchester 40S&W 165gr. Full metal jacket target/range. For duty it is 40S&W 180gr. JHP. Also it is a glock 40 model 23, I know because it is written on the barrel. J

Glock 23s are great. That shoots like a dream for me. I bought a Glock 27 based on my experience with the 23 and have been less than impressed with it though. Seems like the the 23 is a nice balance between concealability and control/accuracy.

 

[seasoned]

Glock 23s are great. That shoots like a dream for me. I bought a Glock 27 based on my experience with the 23 and have been less than impressed with it though. Seems like the the 23 is a nice balance between concealability and control/accuracy.

I am a town Constable, and chose this weapon because it is the norm for LE in the area. Because I work directly for the town I was required to purchase my own firearm. I did my 47hour firearm course and numerous qualifications with the 23 and can agree with you on the handling and accuracy of it.