michaeledward
Grandmaster
In 10 years, it is quite possible there will not be any 'Iraqi' people.
They will be Iranians, Kurds, and pissed off Sunni's.
They will be Iranians, Kurds, and pissed off Sunni's.
2000 and counting...
- Thread starter bignick
- Start date
michaeledward
Grandmaster
The problem with the 'Three State Solution', is that central Iraq (Sunniland) does not have any oil. (Generalized statement).
The Kurds have substaintial oil deposits in Northern Iraq. As I understand it, approximately 1/4th of the known oil reserves in Iraq are located geographically in the autonomous Kurdish areas of Iraq.
The Shi'ite controlled southern portion of Iraq contains 3/4 of the known Iraqi oil reserves.
The Sunni Triangle has squat.
Some have argued that most of Iraq is stable, blah, blah, blah. The part that is not stable is the 20% minority Sunni population. The Sunni's have no easily adaptable economic platform. With little economic choice in front of them, the civil war is going to go on for a very long time.
Soon, Iran will be more blatant in supporting the Clerics who will soon be in government. Southern Iraq will be joined in the battle against the Sunni's by Iran. The United States will be defending what is left of Fallujah ... a city we destroyed.
There is no good solution. There never was. Too late.
But, it sure is doing a good job destroying the future of the American Economy ... except for halliburton and co.
The Kurds have substaintial oil deposits in Northern Iraq. As I understand it, approximately 1/4th of the known oil reserves in Iraq are located geographically in the autonomous Kurdish areas of Iraq.
The Shi'ite controlled southern portion of Iraq contains 3/4 of the known Iraqi oil reserves.
The Sunni Triangle has squat.
Some have argued that most of Iraq is stable, blah, blah, blah. The part that is not stable is the 20% minority Sunni population. The Sunni's have no easily adaptable economic platform. With little economic choice in front of them, the civil war is going to go on for a very long time.
Soon, Iran will be more blatant in supporting the Clerics who will soon be in government. Southern Iraq will be joined in the battle against the Sunni's by Iran. The United States will be defending what is left of Fallujah ... a city we destroyed.
There is no good solution. There never was. Too late.
But, it sure is doing a good job destroying the future of the American Economy ... except for halliburton and co.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
michaeledward said:
That whole argument is built on the inherently prejudiced assumption that these people are incapable of compromise and thoroughly incapable of building and maintaining a functioning democracy.
I'd like to hear your argument as to why that would be. Are they cultural or racially incapable of this in your estimation? Or are you claiming some other quality exists that makes those things impossible?
michaeledward
Grandmaster
sgtmac_46 said:
There is no argument in my post. There is simply a statement that I feel is accurate. It is quite possible that I am wrong. It is quite possible that "we will be greeted as liberators, with chocolate and flowers", too .... well maybe not so much.
Iraq has existed as a "country" for less then 100 years. Before that, these tribes have lived in the same geographic area for between 3 and 5 millenia. In 3,000 years, they have been unable or unwilling to reach a 'compromise'. Yet, they have been able to build and maintain a governing structure.
What hubris would lead someone to believe that the influence of an outside group, for a couple of years, or hell, even a couple of decades ("It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." D.Rumsfeld) could alter these ancient civilizations?
I guess if you want to sum up my argument, it is this: I prefer to see the world as it is, not as I would like it to be. This country followed willfully and blindly Rumsfeld, Perle, Kristol, Hadley, Armitage, Cheney, and the Project for A New American Century lunatics into a war that is going to destroy this country.
Really, this war isn't even about the god damned carbons stuck in the ground. That would have been just an added benefit, if we were ever to get 'our son of a *****' Chalabi installed as Client/Puppet President.
But, there you have it ... right in my signature ... we are well on the way.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
"These tribes" are human beings, like you and I.....unless you know something I don't. What's more, in the entire history of mankind, can you name more than a handful of people's and regions that have remained peaceful for more than a generation. How many times in the last century has our own tribe been unable or unwilling to compromise?michaeledward said:
The same hubris that believed we could accomplish the same in Germany and Japan, both nations with long histories of martial aggression. Japan, in particular, was less than 60 years out of a feudal society, when we occupied their nation and attempted to bring democratic reforms.michaelward said:
Well, if we're going to see the world as it is, not as we wish it were, then it is equally clear that we've accomplished the most important task....Eliminating Saddam Hussein as leader of Iraq. Though you will argue this will lead to some apocalyptic outcome, that has yet to be illustrated in anything but the most rabid fantasies of the left.michaelward said:
I do find the admission that, instead of being money grubbing fiends, those you have named, are instead, idealistic would be nation builders, who truly DO desire democracy in the middle east. What an ironic twist. Perhaps you've hit on the truth that Neo-Conservatives aren't conservatives at all, but merely branched off from liberalism, to form a strange hybrid of both political views.michaelward said:
We shall see.michaelward said:
My argument is less dogmatic than that of those neo-conservatives. I merely know that failure in a task such as this, will lead to WIDE RANGING repercussions. I, too, prefer the world as it is, namely the fact that we can't go back and discuss the merits of something that has already been done, as if coming to a conclusion that it was or was not a bad course, will alter the fact that we are stuck with the consequences. Military failure will lead to HUGE problems for decades to come. Military success, on the other hand, will create huge problems for OTHERS, who equally desire to see their agenda pursued.
michaeledward
Grandmaster
A very deadly weekend for the United States military in Iraq.
We have move well past the 2,200 fatality for US soldiers in Iraq.
We have move well past the 2,200 fatality for US soldiers in Iraq.
michaeledward
Grandmaster
Fluffy said:
Fluffy, I am not certian if that comment is directed toward me, or not. As this thread has been dormant since November, I can only assume it is.
I would like to point out that there is no opinion presented in my post. It is a statement of factual happenings in Iraq.
Some people 'Support Our Troops' by putting little yellow magnets on the back of their cars. I support our troops by remembering every day, they are in service to the nation, they are dying, they are getting wounded. I acknowledge their service and remember soldiers are dying every day.
As for my opinion, their service and their deaths are a tragedy, because it did not need to happen. Each death comes about because of corrupt and incompetent political leadership.
However, on this thread, I try to keep those opinions quiet. And, still, some seem to read opinions into statements that don't have them.
Rick Wade
Master Black Belt
As a member of the armed forces that served over in Iraq I can tell you that the support that Michael gives is some of the best support. Because these are the people that really care about the troops (as people). Mike I salute you, although you and I don't always see Eye to Eye politically.
P.S. I would give you rep points except I need to spread them out first. So I figured publicly is the next best way.
V/R
Rick
P.S. I would give you rep points except I need to spread them out first. So I figured publicly is the next best way.
V/R
Rick
Fluffy said:
While you have a good point, I think it depends upon how it is done. People should be able to disagree without disrespecting one another. Also, if someone with a different view makes a valid point, acknowledge it rather than brush it off because it doesn't fit your own party line.
The Iraq war is such a major issue facing America today that I think dialogue on the subject is essential. However, we don't need to call each other names or imply a lack of patriotism to those with different viewpoints.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
"And what sort of soldiers are those you are to lead? Are they reliable? Are they brave? Are they capable of victory? Their story is known to all of you. It is the story of the American man-at-arms. My estimate of him was formed on the battlefield many, many years ago, and has never changed. I regarded him then as I regard him now -- as one of the world's noblest figures, not only as one of the finest military characters, but also as one of the most stainless. His name and fame are the birthright of every American citizen. In his youth and strength, his love and loyalty, he gave all that mortality can give.
He needs no eulogy from me or from any other man. He has written his own history and written it in red on his enemy's breast. But when I think of his patience under adversity, of his courage under fire, and of his modesty in victory, I am filled with an emotion of admiration I cannot put into words. He belongs to history as furnishing one of the greatest examples of successful patriotism. He belongs to posterity as the instructor of future generations in the principles of liberty and freedom. He belongs to the present, to us, by his virtues and by his achievements. In 20 campaigns, on a hundred battlefields, around a thousand campfires, I have witnessed that enduring fortitude, that patriotic self-abnegation, and that invincible determination which have carved his statue in the hearts of his people. From one end of the world to the other he has drained deep the chalice of courage.
As I listened to those songs [of the glee club], in memory's eye I could see those staggering columns of the First World War, bending under soggy packs, on many a weary march from dripping dusk to drizzling dawn, slogging ankle-deep through the mire of shell-shocked roads, to form grimly for the attack, blue-lipped, covered with sludge and mud, chilled by the wind and rain, driving home to their objective, and for many, to the judgment seat of God.
I do not know the dignity of their birth, but I do know the glory of their death.
They died unquestioning, uncomplaining, with faith in their hearts, and on their lips the hope that we would go on to victory.
Always, for them: Duty, Honor, Country; always their blood and sweat and tears, as we sought the way and the light and the truth.
And 20 years after, on the other side of the globe, again the filth of murky foxholes, the stench of ghostly trenches, the slime of dripping dugouts; those boiling suns of relentless heat, those torrential rains of devastating storms; the loneliness and utter desolation of jungle trails; the bitterness of long separation from those they loved and cherished; the deadly pestilence of tropical disease; the horror of stricken areas of war; their resolute and determined defense, their swift and sure attack, their indomitable purpose, their complete and decisive victory -- always victory. Always through the bloody haze of their last reverberating shot, the vision of gaunt, ghastly men reverently following your password of: Duty, Honor, Country."
General Douglas MacArthur: Thayer Award Acceptance Address
delivered 12 May 1962, West Point, NY
"Duty, Honor, Country"
He needs no eulogy from me or from any other man. He has written his own history and written it in red on his enemy's breast. But when I think of his patience under adversity, of his courage under fire, and of his modesty in victory, I am filled with an emotion of admiration I cannot put into words. He belongs to history as furnishing one of the greatest examples of successful patriotism. He belongs to posterity as the instructor of future generations in the principles of liberty and freedom. He belongs to the present, to us, by his virtues and by his achievements. In 20 campaigns, on a hundred battlefields, around a thousand campfires, I have witnessed that enduring fortitude, that patriotic self-abnegation, and that invincible determination which have carved his statue in the hearts of his people. From one end of the world to the other he has drained deep the chalice of courage.
As I listened to those songs [of the glee club], in memory's eye I could see those staggering columns of the First World War, bending under soggy packs, on many a weary march from dripping dusk to drizzling dawn, slogging ankle-deep through the mire of shell-shocked roads, to form grimly for the attack, blue-lipped, covered with sludge and mud, chilled by the wind and rain, driving home to their objective, and for many, to the judgment seat of God.
I do not know the dignity of their birth, but I do know the glory of their death.
They died unquestioning, uncomplaining, with faith in their hearts, and on their lips the hope that we would go on to victory.
Always, for them: Duty, Honor, Country; always their blood and sweat and tears, as we sought the way and the light and the truth.
And 20 years after, on the other side of the globe, again the filth of murky foxholes, the stench of ghostly trenches, the slime of dripping dugouts; those boiling suns of relentless heat, those torrential rains of devastating storms; the loneliness and utter desolation of jungle trails; the bitterness of long separation from those they loved and cherished; the deadly pestilence of tropical disease; the horror of stricken areas of war; their resolute and determined defense, their swift and sure attack, their indomitable purpose, their complete and decisive victory -- always victory. Always through the bloody haze of their last reverberating shot, the vision of gaunt, ghastly men reverently following your password of: Duty, Honor, Country."
General Douglas MacArthur: Thayer Award Acceptance Address
delivered 12 May 1962, West Point, NY
"Duty, Honor, Country"
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/douglasmacarthurthayeraward.html
Listen to it. It is amazing.
Listen to it. It is amazing.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
And the part the General said that I think is important here.
"Others will debate the controversial issues, national and international, which divide men's minds; but serene, calm, aloof, you stand as the Nation's war-guardian, as its lifeguard from the raging tides of international conflict, as its gladiator in the arena of battle. For a century and a half you have defended, guarded, and protected its hallowed traditions of liberty and freedom, of right and justice.
Let civilian voices argue the merits or demerits of our processes of government; whether our strength is being sapped by deficit financing, indulged in too long, by federal paternalism grown too mighty, by power groups grown too arrogant, by politics grown too corrupt, by crime grown too rampant, by morals grown too low, by taxes grown too high, by extremists grown too violent; whether our personal liberties are as thorough and complete as they should be. These great national problems are not for your professional participation or military solution. Your guidepost stands out like a ten-fold beacon in the night: Duty, Honor, Country.
You are the leaven which binds together the entire fabric of our national system of defense. From your ranks come the great captains who hold the nation's destiny in their hands the moment the war tocsin sounds. The Long Gray Line has never failed us. Were you to do so, a million ghosts in olive drab, in brown khaki, in blue and gray, would rise from their white crosses thundering those magic words: Duty, Honor, Country.
This does not mean that you are war mongers.
On the contrary, the soldier, above all other people, prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war.
But always in our ears ring the ominous words of Plato, that wisest of all philosophers: "Only the dead have seen the end of war."
"Others will debate the controversial issues, national and international, which divide men's minds; but serene, calm, aloof, you stand as the Nation's war-guardian, as its lifeguard from the raging tides of international conflict, as its gladiator in the arena of battle. For a century and a half you have defended, guarded, and protected its hallowed traditions of liberty and freedom, of right and justice.
Let civilian voices argue the merits or demerits of our processes of government; whether our strength is being sapped by deficit financing, indulged in too long, by federal paternalism grown too mighty, by power groups grown too arrogant, by politics grown too corrupt, by crime grown too rampant, by morals grown too low, by taxes grown too high, by extremists grown too violent; whether our personal liberties are as thorough and complete as they should be. These great national problems are not for your professional participation or military solution. Your guidepost stands out like a ten-fold beacon in the night: Duty, Honor, Country.
You are the leaven which binds together the entire fabric of our national system of defense. From your ranks come the great captains who hold the nation's destiny in their hands the moment the war tocsin sounds. The Long Gray Line has never failed us. Were you to do so, a million ghosts in olive drab, in brown khaki, in blue and gray, would rise from their white crosses thundering those magic words: Duty, Honor, Country.
This does not mean that you are war mongers.
On the contrary, the soldier, above all other people, prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war.
But always in our ears ring the ominous words of Plato, that wisest of all philosophers: "Only the dead have seen the end of war."
michaeledward
Grandmaster
Major Bob Bateman delivers reports to Eric Alterman's blog on MSNBC. He is, and has been serving in Iraq for the past year ... perhaps more. Eric Alterman's blog is decidedly liberal. Major Bob has never, to my knowledge, published his own political views.
Today, he submitted this report to Altercation.
I am going to post it on this thread .... although, it deals nothing with the sacrifices that the 2,210 have made, I found it particularly moving. And it called to mind the sacrifices of those mentioned in this thread.
Today, he submitted this report to Altercation.
I am going to post it on this thread .... although, it deals nothing with the sacrifices that the 2,210 have made, I found it particularly moving. And it called to mind the sacrifices of those mentioned in this thread.
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