2000 and counting...

[Feisty Mouse]

Possibly learning from what happened in Vietnam, and what happened to the troops when they returned. We saw examples of soldiers - like John Kerry, like other soldiers I know - returning from the conflict or war, disagreeing with it, wanting better treatment for the troops, but still having served admirably and to the best of their abilities.

 

[bignick]

shift in public opinion...times change...

 

[rmcrobertson]

Among the ways in which returning soldiers were--and unfortunately are--treated badly by a government and a citizenry that wishes they would Just Go Away so that no money will need to be put where mouth was, there was--and remains--lousy VA treatment, real enforcement of employment laws for returning soldiers, and counseling services.

Too often, we've talked about patriotism and honor, and basically said, "screw it," when it comes to paying the real costs of war, we ain't willin.' We ***** about taxes, we go off about government bureaucracy, whatever--and we launch into these little conflicts without real planning or appreciation of true costs.

For example, we were nationally so frickin' in a rush to get into Iraq, that we never balanced needs against costs--so we sent in too few troops, we didn't spend the money and the time on little things like body armor and Kevlar for Humvee doors, and we sure as hell didn't plan for losing a few more guys every day for a few years.

I'd like to see the so-liberal media reporting seriously, for instance, on how wounded and permanently-crippled soldiers are being treated. I'd like to see coverage of psychiatric casualties. I'd like to see real looks into job prospects...

No, I don't think so either.

 

[PeachMonkey]

All I can say to you is, those of us who lived through the Vietnam conflict know what was and what wasn't. I personally never saw anyone spit upon a solider, but to bombard that same soldier with invective is equally as bad.

I'm sure many, many veterans of Vietnam were treated very poorly upon their return. Tons. Hell, I was harassed in college simply for *studying* military history... those same selfish, snotty personalities probably would have been happy to scream at a vet.

Regardless, the harassment of vets by fellow citizens has been blown out of proportion. Far worse has been the abandonment of vets from Vietnam and later conflicts by their own government.

The same scoundrels who wrap themselves in the flag and try to pave their way to four more years in the White House with the corpses of those who died on 9/11, in Afghanistan, Iraq, and countless other conflicts have gone out of their way to screw the soldiers who did the hard work.

While we've argued about how many self-satisfied protesters may or may not have yelled at, harassed, spit on, or discriminated against veterans these past three decades, the real bastards from Nixon onward have gotten away with worse than murder.

 

[PeachMonkey]

I'd like to see the so-liberal media reporting seriously, for instance, on how wounded and permanently-crippled soldiers are being treated. I'd like to see coverage of psychiatric casualties. I'd like to see real looks into job prospects...

Robert, let me be the first to point out how your desire for the media to treat in facts, to deal with actual costs and consequences, and to actually act as something more than a cheerleader for the administration...

... proves how much you hate America.

 

[bignick]

Robert, let me be the first to point out how your desire for the media to treat in facts, to deal with actual costs and consequences, and to actually act as something more than a cheerleader for the administration...

... proves how much you hate America.

what is this supposed to mean?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

What I believe Peachmonkey is saying, Nick, is that many Americans have been labled "un-American" for having questioned the President, the administration, the war and the Republican party.

Regards,


Steve

 

[PeachMonkey]

What I believe Peachmonkey is saying, Nick, is that many Americans have been labled "un-American" for having questioned the President, the administration, the war and the Republican party.

Precisely. The classic argument of the scoundrel is to accuse their opponents of being un-American, of being traitors, of supporting the enemy, etc. It's a technique that governments have used throughout history.

 

[bignick]

Precisely. The classic argument of the scoundrel is to accuse their opponents of being un-American, of being traitors, of supporting the enemy, etc. It's a technique that governments have used throughout history.

that's what i thought...but you can never be sure...you lose so many aspects of communication when all you get is the text

 

[Chronuss]

is that many Americans have been labled "un-American" for having questioned the President, the administration, the war and the Republican party.

well, then, damn...I guess I'm un-American...lemme go throw out my apple pie.

before the three year anniversary this saturday, Bush was an isolationist...now he seems a bit more open minded about foreign affairs...that still doesn't change my opinion that I think he smoked himself retarded in college...I feel that the whole Iraq thing was Bush trying to one-up his daddy for the SNAFU that was caused when Saddam was appointed during Regan and Bush Sr. used some sway in favor for Saddam, then Sr. couldn't get him Desert Storm and now we have more soldiers that completely and whole heartedly standing behind their country and for what they believe in. just because I support soldiers of our military for the services they render and the duties placed before them does not mean I support the reasoning for being there in the first place or the President's "strategery."

 

[bignick]

well...i don't really like baseball, either...so i'm doubly un-American....

 

[Chronuss]

well...i don't really like baseball, either...so i'm doubly un-American....

that is a rather boring sport...

 

[kenpo tiger]

Chronuss - spending a little time in the arcade, are we? [I've tried two games and given up.]

I just hate to see the waste of young (and not so young) lives. I do agree with Robertson - ulp! - that we, as a country, rushed in quite unprepared to this war and that is the primary cause for the unconscionable number killed. Depends upon how you want to interpret it as to whether it was a waste of time.

 

[AaronLucia]

baseball or the arcade...its a no brainer!

Arcade it is!

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Although this is a very serious thread, one thing did make me laugh.....

that still doesn't change my opinion that I think he smoked himself retarded in college...

:boing2:

 

[Makalakumu]

Guys, I think we need to get it straight. This war in Iraq is a Neo-Conservative policy and is only loosely tied to the War on Terror. You all need to look at the Plan for the New American Century. This war has been planned for a long time.

upnorthkyosa

 

[AaronLucia]

Do what now?

 

[Chronuss]

Chronuss - spending a little time in the arcade, are we? [I've tried two games and given up.]

gotta remember...I'm a youngin'...Nintendo generation.

 

[FUZZYJ692000]

1000? isn't that about the number that was lost on 9/11? or at least roughly. 1000? it is a large number no matter how you look at it. i'm gonna play devils advocate a little bit here cause needless to say this thread is highly liberal, nothing wrong with that though . any how i have been seeing refrences on here as to attacking Bush and his decision to engage in this "war on terror". Now if my memory serves me right i remember many American people coming together after 9/11 and they wanted answers, they wanted retribution, but most of all most Americans wanted revenge for those lives lost on that. i guess my question would have to be what would have happened if Bush didn't react? would if have been another episode like that which happened with Jimmy Carter, where Americans were captured and held hostage? Carter really didn't act on this and many of the American people saw this as a sign of him being weak and some believed that he failed the American public as a president due to this. i guess what i'm saying is that either way that Bush went he'd have opposing forces at each end. he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.
as for the soldiers, i've grown up a military brat and have a high regard and respect for each man and woman serving their country and thank them for their services. :asian:

 

[Tkang_TKD]

any how i have been seeing refrences on here as to attacking Bush and his decision to engage in this "war on terror". Now if my memory serves me right i remember many American people coming together after 9/11 and they wanted answers, they wanted retribution, but most of all most Americans wanted revenge for those lives lost on that. i guess my question would have to be what would have happened if Bush didn't react?

And they did get retribution and revenge against both Al Qaida, and the Taliban which supported them. I personally have carried out those orders.

One mustn't confuse the "war on terror" as being the same as the War in Iraq. As much as anyone wants to believe it, Saddam had nothing to do with the attacks on America. The administration likes to put a play on words that leaves the average person thinking just that.

i guess what i'm saying is that either way that Bush went he'd have opposing forces at each end. he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

He wouldn't have been damned at all if his administration didn't choose to feed the American public lie after lie about what Iraq is really about. Taking care of Al Qaida and Taliban would have been fine. Iraq was planned before 9/11/01. 9/11 was merely a way to justify invading Iraq.

as for the soldiers, i've grown up a military brat and have a high regard and respect for each man and woman serving their country and thank them for their services. :asian:

If you really respect us, elect a man that will send us hunting after Osama, instead of wasting billions on Iraq.