15 Things You Should Know About "The Race"

[Andrew Green]

Two parents set up a game of monopoly for their kids. Then leave the room, one comes back and rigs the game. Gives a bunch of properties to his kid, takes the others money and gives it too his, etc then leaves again.

The kids come in, sit down, and start playing.

The dissadvantaged one realises something is funny and speaks up. The other claims quite innocently that he did not cheat, didn't do anything unfair, and the game should be continued as is, by the rules without doing anything to balance the game back out. Why should he give something up or give the other person some measure of catching up, he didn't cheat, he has what he has and has been playing fairly, not his fault the game was rigged before he started by people other then him.

Most people would say the kids with the obvious advantage, despite it not being created by him cheating, but by someone else cheating and him inheritting a advantage despite not asking for it and having no control over it is being a brat.

Affirmative action seeks to repair that sort of damage, but on a much larger scale. It's not a perfect solution, and it is unfair to a lot of people in many ways, but the problem is there are no fair solutions. We can't start over with things fair in the real world.

 

[Sukerkin]

Despite the very good analogy given above by Andrew, I firmly believe that the fruit of this particular tree will give your society stomach cramps. To thieve a much used phrase, you need equality of opportunity, not of outcomes

However, I can't speak for your country, only mine, where the circumstances are rather different. So I sha'n't attempt to press further as, other than in the most general of terms, I'm not speaking from knowledge, only assumption. Time will tell soon enough.

 

[Xue Sheng]

my step daughter is mixed race (black and white). We were careful to list her race as Black on her kindergarten enrollment, so that in 12 years she might qualify for better scholarships.

Yes my wife is Peurto Rican and we list all the boys as Hispanic as well. She was born here and so was my son's.God Bless America

hmm, I hadn't thought of that, my wife is Chinese so our kids could be listed as such as well I guess.

 

[Twin Fist]

Indeed. What the white folks moaning about affirmative action fail to understand though are their own present privileges, which benefit them and disadvantage minorities. Thus, the minorities are the ones feeling those corrosive aspects of lesser status, which AA attempts to address.

Nope, not happening, dont believe it, cant make me believe it.

What "priviledges" do I enjoy?

I have been poor my entire life. I was born poor and I am still poor. I havnt had a college graduate in my family YET. on Either side.I have never owned a new car.

My high school had "beat up a white boy day", so it wasnt a rich school by any means, but I graduated, went to the military, and learned a trade.

TODAY, no one (the possible exception of the American Indians) has anything stacked against them but their own ambition, or thier own lack of ambition.

Oprah and Condi are perfect examples.

both born poor, but both are world famous. One arguably the most powerfull woman on the planet. All because of hard work.

this "the deck is stacked against me' crap gets really old when it is so clearly not true.

hard work, not hand outs are the answer, and if some people are not capable of hard work, or not willing to work hard, that isnt my problem. And I will be damned if I will feel guilty about thier failure to make something out of themselves. Regardless of color, or creed or belief.

Andrew,
that is a great example. But here is the problem.

It isnt true anymore.

Plus, and again, hate to resort to logic, but you cannot, by definition, give someone an advantage without putting someone else at a disadvantage, and when you put someone at a disadvanatage due to race, it is not only immoral, it is illegal.

 

[elder999]

Oprah and Condi are perfect examples.

both born poor, but both are world famous. One arguably the most powerfull woman on the planet. All because of hard work.
.

While she experienced a great deal of racial discrimination first hand in Birmingham, Condoleeza Rice had a very middle class, if not upper middle class upbringing. Her father was a Presbyterian minister and school guidance counselor, and her mother was a schoolteacher. She started learning foreing languages, ballet and piano from the age of three.

And I don't think Oprah should be considered "the most powerful woman on the planet," though it's possible that she is...:lol:

 

[Twin Fist]

well, I was referring to oprah.

there are lots of Sec state's

there is only ONE Oprah, and many people have opined that if not for her endorsement, barack wouldnt even be a memory on the national scale.

 

[Andrew Green]

Andrew,
that is a great example. But here is the problem.

That one is hard to say, and I really can't comment much as I am not a US citizen and really don't know a great deal about that specific problem. Up here it's not so much African Americans that get "bonuses" as Native Americans, who I'd say it still is true for.

But you did illustrate what I see as the biggest problem with the idea, and that is that not advantaged by situation of their birth is white, and not everyone who is disadvantaged is not.

Personally I think social programs would work best if they looked at peoples current situation and needs, weighed with their willingness and ability to get out of that situation when looking at where to put the most help rather then just race. But unfortunately such a solution opens a whole different bag of issues.

 

[Twin Fist]

Personally I think social programs would work best if they looked at peoples current situation and needs, weighed with their willingness and ability to get out of that situation when looking at where to put the most help rather then just race. But unfortunately such a solution opens a whole different bag of issues.

now that is an interesting idea. Good on ya!

 

[zDom]

Are the effects of that oppression still a problem for people like you today? If not, then this point is utterly irrelevant.

And just how do you prove the effects of oppression are "still a problem?"

Still poor?

So am I.

Name ONE THING a person of color can't do or be or achieve because of their race. ONE SINGLE THING.

You and your family have benefited, none the less.

The hell you say. Any money my family has (and I mean parents and grandparents, not ME ... journalists make chicken feed) earned by the sweat of their own brow, not the sweat of a slave owned by some deep South slave owner.

You know who HAS benefitted? The decendents of slaves. Yea, their ancestors had a HELL of a hard way to go, but the fact is, any African American living in the United States is much better off living here than their distant cousins still living in Africa. Helluva lot better to be poor HERE than poor THERE.

And HERE they can be anything they want if they work hard enough. Doctor, lawyer, judge, cabinent member, presidential candidate.

The game isn't fair now. Playing the game without any recognition of race only preserves the current unfairnesses. No surprise that those benefiting from that (whites) are against it while those disadvantaged by it (blacks) are not.

:bs:

Unfair my ***.

You call the lifestyle Jesse Jackson lives (he doesn't make money preaching, but "fighting racism") "fair"? Or the lifestyle enjoyed by the Rev. Al Sharpton? I don't see those "job" opportunties for someone of MY skin color.

I wish I could live the lifestyle THEY live simply playing the race card at every possible opportunity.

What isn't fair is single, unwed mothers ganking the government for entitlements while they sit around living a life of leisure. Never mind teaching the children ethics, how to get and hold a job, self respect and respecting others.

It isn't fair to the taxpayers and it isn't fair to the children who are brought up in a culture of "the government OWES us" attitude.

I recommend reading some Larry Elder articles.

 

[Sukerkin]

Dom might have expressed things in a blunter way than I would choose but that does not make what was said any the less valid.

I keep saying it because I think I have to but as an outside observer of your country, that is exactly the impression garnered.

What we see from thousands of miles away is that all the committed, dedicated, hard working, self-improving people, who spend all their lives working up the ladder, have their good examples washed away by the minority (no pun intended for a change) who just hold out their hand for an 'Affirmative Action'.

The reaction even here is that "Noone ever gave me an Affirmative Action!".

From my own life, in a different culture admittedly, I spent (counts on fingers) nigh on twenty-five years getting educated and spent a lot of that time, as we say over here, "On my uppers" (meaning below the 'bread line'). When I see people being 'waved through' the barriers I struggled so hard to overcome, it does not engender warm 'fellow-feeling', especially when they are no good at their job because it was handed to them free-with-their-breakfast-cereal.

I can imagine that the reaction is much the same in America. I would guess (and it is just a supposition) is that those members of the Minorities (gods how I hate that term) who worked their own way up probably feel it the worst.

 

[Ray]

What the white folks moaning about affirmative action fail to understand though are their own present privileges, which benefit them and disadvantage minorities.

Are you lumping all "white folk" together in one stereotypical basket? I am a white man who doesn't know which "white present privileges" I had while growing up. I lived in a predominately hispanic area of SoCal, in a cheap 2-bedroom roach-infested apartment for 13 years with my family, watched 2 (of 3) brothers sucumb to the influence of gangs and drugs (to eventually die homeless), etc.

Kind of a racist idea to say that all whites have "privileges" that others don't, isn't it?

 

[theletch1]

Are you lumping all "white folk" together in one stereotypical basket? I am a white man who doesn't know which "white present privileges" I had while growing up. I lived in a predominately hispanic area of SoCal, in a cheap 2-bedroom roach-infested apartment for 13 years with my family, watched 2 (of 3) brothers sucumb to the influence of gangs and drugs (to eventually die homeless), etc.

Kind of a racist idea to say that all whites have "privileges" that others don't, isn't it?

No, Ray, it isn't because it's aimed at white folks and all white folks, regardless of their personal history must PAY for the sins of their forefathers. Ya see, my family is half Apache and half Scottish. Neither side of my family has ever had crap but I get lumped in with the rest of the group because some of the folks that look similar to me have done horrible things in the past. Gee, when white people do that we're just picking on "stereotypes". While I didn't lose family to gangs and drugs I did grow up in a two room house built by my grandfather with no running water, an outhouse, cracks in the walls that the snow could blow through in the winter. Yeah, I'm a real oppressor. :soapbox:

 

[Empty Hands]

What "priviledges" do I enjoy?

I would be willing to bet you've never been repeatedly followed around a mall by security. I would also be willing to bet that you've never been pulled over by the cops multiple times for a "busted taillight" when nothing was wrong with them. In any case, someone has made a list. Not perfect by any means, but at least a way to get you thinking.

this "the deck is stacked against me' crap gets really old when it is so clearly not true.

I'm glad that your extensive experience as a black man has led you to this important insight. Meanwhile, identical resumes with "black names" get half the call backs. Someone should tell these employers that pervasive discrimination doesn't exist any more.

 

[Empty Hands]

Name ONE THING a person of color can't do or be or achieve because of their race. ONE SINGLE THING.

It isn't a question of "can't do", which you well know. It is a question of "less likely too" due to systemic problems from present discrimination to present poverty due to past discrimination.

The hell you say. Any money my family has (and I mean parents and grandparents, not ME ... journalists make chicken feed) earned by the sweat of their own brow, not the sweat of a slave owned by some deep South slave owner.

Yeah, I'm sure that keeping millions of potential competitors for jobs away from them until recently hasn't helped. Nor has the economic development made possible by slavery which has carried on to this day.

What isn't fair is single, unwed mothers ganking the government for entitlements while they sit around living a life of leisure. Never mind teaching the children ethics, how to get and hold a job, self respect and respecting others.

Keep fighting those "welfare queens"! This little bit of dogwhistle racism hasn't gotten any prettier since Reagen uttered it.

 

[Empty Hands]

Kind of a racist idea to say that all whites have "privileges" that others don't, isn't it?

Nope. It isn't racist either to pretend they don't exist, but it is clueless. See the list I posted to TF.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I can't wait until Caucasians are a minority so we can finally have:

a National Association for the Advancement of Uncolored People

uncolored fraternities

White College Fund

White Entertainment Television

Congressional White Caucus

along with all the other rights, privileges and job opportunities (racial comedy!!) only available to minorities.

Also looking forward to them crushing the middle class so I can either be rich or be Entitled (to support by the government) so my quality of life will improve.

/end bitter rant

I grumble at this post. So why should the majority have special majority clubs? I thought they were the majority.
Sean

 

[Empty Hands]

Yeah, I'm a real oppressor.

Saying you have privileges because of your skin color isn't the same as calling you an oppressor. It also isn't the same thing as saying you've grown up rich. Really, is the concept so hard to understand?

 

[Sukerkin]

I mean it sincerely when I say "With all due respect", EH but are you really taking all factors into consideration in your views on this?

Ask any Scouser, Welshman, Scotsman, Brummie, Cornishman, Biker (that's me by the way) and you'll get the same story.

I was used to being pulled over by police if I was riding, questioned by police if I was sitting, followed by security if I was shopping. Why? Because I was long haired, leather clad and travelled by motorcycle. Did I moan to my mates about it? Sure I did. Did I get any breaks for being a persecuted minority? The question is clearly rhetorical.

As I have said, maybe things are different in America or maybe it's just that the media (fictional and news) would paint it that way but the "Pity me because of my ancestors background" really doesn't sell for genuine money over here.

I'm part Viking, part Celt, part Norman, part Saxon. Half of my genes were from oppressed peoples and another third comes from, to put it politely, 'forced pairing' more likely than not. Why don't I get to play the 'Race Card'? Just because it was longer ago doesn't make it any less real.

The 'Slavery Guilt Trip' has to end and the realisation dawn that, tho' what happened in centuries past was not something we'd do today and is a source of shame for those that did it, it has nothing to do with us.

More importantly, it is no worse than anything most of our ancestors went through either (Serf is no different from Slave, it's just a different word from a different language).

I can accept that you don't think that way and that those from the Ruling Powers have always lived in a different world than the rest of us but trying to convince those of us who were not born with a Silver Spoon in our mouths is a waste of your energy.

 

[Empty Hands]

I was used to being pulled over by police if I was riding, questioned by police if I was sitting, followed by security if I was shopping. Why? Because I was long haired, leather clad and travelled by motorcycle.

This is routinely happening to well dressed, middle class black folks. In any case, it is wrong for them, as it is wrong for you. We shouldn't excuse injustice because it also happens to other people.

Why don't I get to play the 'Race Card'? Just because it was longer ago doesn't make it any less real.

Affirmative action isn't about punishment for the past, it is about correcting problems in the present. Thus, your ancestry isn't really relevant unless people like you are being discriminated against today because of that past.

...trying to convince those of us who were not born with a Silver Spoon in our mouths is a waste of your energy.

I find it interesting that I talk about systemic discrimination against black folks, and the benefits of white skin, and the rebuttal is always "I didn't grow up rich!" Because you are not rich, doesn't mean you don't derive benefit from your skin color. It doesn't even have to be monetary, which some of my examples show. Nor does you not growing up rich say anything about whether or not black people are discriminated against.

 

[jks9199]

The simple fact is that the current practice of "affirmative action" in the US is neither affirmative, nor active. It passively awards preference based on race, gender, or other "disadvantaged criteria" to a candidate, without regard to qualifications. In short, it's a case of trying to make two wrongs equal a right. It doesn't work; discrimination remains discrimination, no matter what you call it or who you use it on.

I would actually love to see TRUE affirmative action. Since police departments are a prime area for affirmative action to "balance the department composition to reflect the community", allow me to describe one approach that I would consider to be both affirmative, and active. Go out and actively recruit in the target populations. (Note that I am not denying the existence of prejudices or biases; people remain people. I've seen a very enlightening sketch by Bill Cosby on the subject...) Start young; make the kids think positively about being a cop; make sure that the cops in the area are good examples. Work with them overt time to ensure that they remain eligible, keeping them out of gangs, away from drugs, in school, and so on. Provide, open to all potential candidates, coaching sessions for the written and physical tests, and so on. This is an approach that I consider to be truly affirmative (as in it's building up everyone involved, rather than artifically "leveling" the field) and active. The problem is that it's not a quick and easy solution. But then, fairness is seldom quickly nor easily achieved.