Zones of Protection.......

[Michael Billings]

Brainiac here (one of my favorite villians). Sounds a lot like Outer Rim to me. At least the way I heard Mr. Parker explain it. I never thought of it in terms of inches from your body, rather used the opponent as the reference point. But I probably am going too fast, and need to bring it back to fist person point of view for them. I am willing to try this and the "shield" idea on my beginning class tonight.

Thanks Mucho,
-Michael

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I visualize myself tagging you.........

Why? are you it?:rofl:

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

Brainiac here (one of my favorite villians). Sounds a lot like Outer Rim to me. At least the way I heard Mr. Parker explain it. I never thought of it in terms of inches from your body, rather used the opponent as the reference point. But I probably am going too fast, and need to bring it back to fist person point of view for them. I am willing to try this and the "shield" idea on my beginning class tonight.

Thanks Mucho,
-Michael

I never had the pleasure or honor of meetng Mr. parker or hearing him speak. This is one of those things I picked up on my own, worked with with my fellow students and later my students. the basic premise is this, the shortest distance between two points combined with it is easier to stop a moving obkect after it has reached the apex of it's speed and power. Mr. C, I have no doubt that you could tag me. I believe, sir, that if you examne it, you will findit ot have vailidty, especially when dealing with lesser expereinced practitioners. The way this "discovery" came ot me was noticing that people have a tendency to 'reach" for blocks. Not only does that practice open you to more attacks, it lessens your reactionary time and space. I found by restricting the reaction zone that blocking was faster and more decisive and allowed a quicker recovery/ or reset time.:asian:

 

[Kalicombat]

Maybe when it appears one is reaching for the block, they are in fact attacking the attack. There is no need to block a punch when you can punch the punch, or destroy it in midstream. To me, your theory of the 4 inch range sounds very, very similar to the outer rim theory as outlined in Infinite Insights volume 4. For beginners in any martial art, waiting until the attack is that close is very unlikely. They do not have the training, as of yet, to be patient enough to wait until a weapon is that close. With training, and understanding, they will learn that their reaction can be faster then the action and that they can avoid the weapon being offered with little effort. TO achieve this, they must first weather a few smacks to get the timing, and their own confidence under control.

Gary Catherman

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I visualize myself tagging you.........

Now that was funny....

Seig,

I think what he's saying is that with all of the closing gap techniques we have in Kenpo that make you think we are still a far distance from you, not to mention the speed of most Kenpo guys that can spar, that that four inch rule won't work.

Remember that Mr. C did his time in the square...where when a guy got within 3 or 4 feet they were pounding on each other.

Remember how folks would say Bruce Lee would stand 6 feet away from them, tell them where he was going to hit them, and then do it before they could stop it.

Or how a person with a knife has covered 21 feet in a matter of 2 or 3 seconds as a police officer attempted to pull his firearm only to get cut up.

If I get 4 or 6 inches from you and you haven't reacted, your getting hit (actually your already hit).

What about getting them to hit on focus mitts, moving around each of you in a fighting stance. That will give them a chance to work on their hand placement and position, and get the "feel" of a body in front of them.

Just some thoughts, jb:asian:

 

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Seig


I never had the pleasure or honor of meetng Mr. parker or hearing him speak. This is one of those things I picked up on my own, worked with with my fellow students and later my students. the basic premise is this, the shortest distance between two points combined with it is easier to stop a moving obkect after it has reached the apex of it's speed and power. Mr. C, I have no doubt that you could tag me. I believe, sir, that if you examne it, you will findit ot have vailidty, especially when dealing with lesser expereinced practitioners. The way this "discovery" came ot me was noticing that people have a tendency to 'reach" for blocks. Not only does that practice open you to more attacks, it lessens your reactionary time and space. I found by restricting the reaction zone that blocking was faster and more decisive and allowed a quicker recovery/ or reset time.:asian:

We use this principle, but 4 inches seems a bit close. Usually we don't have a "set in stone" distance. Maybe one day my skills will allow me to block strikes at 4 inches from by body.

 

[Turner]

I see where Seig is coming from; often times when working with self defense techniques the attacker, controlling his urge to track his target will actually punch to the outside of the body... And everyone still blocks the strike even though it is outside the body.

Or, for two decently skilled student facing each other, one moves to the outside of the attack, so much so that the attack is 4 inches to the outside of his body and so it is a waste of energy to do anything but check.

What would be the point? Check, control and destroy the weapon... but don't block it if you don't have to.

 

[Goldendragon7]

First let me say that I meant No disrespect to you ..... but I don't think I clearly understand the idea you are illustrating 4 inches is awful close ..... my thoughts are more along JBuggs explanation of what I feel. geeze (he must know me) but we never have sparred.... Hmmmmmmmm who is telling him my secrets....

anyway.... we need to get together and show me exactly what you mean. I open to ideas......

:asian:

 

[Seig]

Mr. C et al. I realize that a forum like this is a hard place to explain a concept like this. Turner was very close to what is going on with it. Keep in mind, I'm 5'8" with over a 50 inch chest. Economy of motion is what led me to this. If you envision a four inch bubble all the way around your body, six if that seems too close to you, then any attack outside of that zone forces an extension if not over extension to meet the attack. Now in my humble opinion, when defending yourself, you do not want to extend or hyper extend beyond your prime striking range. Now there are always exceptions to this, ie knife attack. By maintaing a close response area, you can meet the attacks with spped and power without exceeding the apex of either one and still be gaining enough momentum to trampoline(bounce) from a hard or soft block to a strike. Also, don't asume I'm standing still. IF someone is trying to close and I think they can overpower me, I create distance. If I KNOW I can overpower them, I'll close on their closing and use my inside power.

 

[Turner]

QUOTE]Turner was very close to what is going on with it[/QUOTE]

Not bad for a white belt, huh?

You said close, so I missed something, so not that good either. The problem with 'reaching out to touch someone' with a block is that you are assuming that you know what the strike is. It can look like a heel-palm, smell like a heel-palm but when it hits you it tastes like blood. Something hit you because you over extended to block something outside of the bubble and it upset your balance and what you though was a heel-palm, was a grab and you gave them your arm and controlled your own height, width and depth. If you wanna block it so bad you might as move your body with it too. As I always say, it is easier to move yourself than to move your opponent. If I want to move to an angle of obscurity/zone of protection then I will move there instead of bashing my opponent to get him to turn. OK, I may bash him just for the fun of it, but I'm still gonna move so that I can continue to bash him.

Consider the traditional Karate Inside-Outside Block (use a left inside parry to move the attack to a right outside block). What good is all of that big motion? If I need two hands to block some dude's punch, you better believe I ain't gonna stand in front of that sucker. I'm just gonna do either the inside parry or the outside block as I MOVE QUICK! In Goju-ryu, Modern Arnis, Hapkido and Shorinji Kempo I was taught that as you get better your techniques get smaller, faster and closer to you. Big squares become little circles because as a beginner your feet seem to be rooted to the floor but as you gain experience you learn how to move your body fluidly and gracefully and are able to generate the power that you need with proper speed, body motion and movement.

but what do I know?

 

[Michael Billings]

I ran the 4" drills last night and was not pleased with keeping the hands so close. The stikes 4" away from you was ok, but I have also always focused on "if you are not trying to hit me, why should I bother to block?" This was comfortable, and a good drill for checks & maneauvers.

The problem came when I realized 4" inches is closer than boxers keep there hands in a clinch. I moved, or projected the imaginary shield, out to an appropriate distance tailored for each individual. It varied, but was usually at least from thumb to little finger with fingers spread wide, for me about 8". This way proportional for my kids, and adults. I was actually more comfortable with the hands being a little further out than this 8" even. My lead hand when high, was at about 12 - 16 inches. When my lead hand was low I tended to keep it a little closer with the back hand being at 8". Well worth the effort and I learned from attempting this, as did my students ... even if it did not work exactly right for us.

The shield idea was great! Especially when I changed it to a force shield. The aft, starboard and port shields were down, so we had to keep the forward shields between us and the opponent. We then threw a few combos, remembering that our phasers were off line, and all we had were photon torpedos.

Hey. ... I did what worked.

Later & thanks to all,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

 

[Goldendragon7]

Well, Michael one thing to think about....... is that it may not work for you but for another it may work much better....... My position is that I don't want to poo poo it or indorse it until I know exactly what Seig is talking about (or anyone else for that matter), this is one minor glitch that the written correspondence on the net does not show very well....... I have learned that to make a clear decision on something..... be damn sure both are on the same page...... I do think I understand it better but some things are better discussed and shown live........ if you know what I mean. So guys don't feel bad.... I have to see what you are talking about before I can really take a strong side ....... pro or con.

:asian:

 

[Seig]

Guys, You're right. This is really a concept that needs to be explained "live" via voice or in person. You're on the right track though. Body dynamics to play a part. I've begun speaking with a few of you and will see if I can get it across better. If any of you are out this way, maybe we can get together.
Seig

 

[ikenpo]

First let me say this is a great dialogue. I have a lot of respect for those that explore and search...So now let me ask some questions and make some comments that will allow me to explore what your doing.

Originally posted by Seig

If you envision a four inch bubble all the way around your body, six if that seems too close to you, then any attack outside of that zone forces an extension if not over extension to meet the attack.

Does this include kicks? Kicks would seem to have a much greater capacity than 4 inches. Or is this primarily some sort of hand isolation drill without feet.


to trampoline(bounce) from a hard or soft block to a strike.

What do you mean by trapoline (bounce)? Is this a closing gap method? Or are you referring to a ricochette off of the attacker's or your own body.


IF someone is trying to close and I think they can overpower me, I create distance. If I KNOW I can overpower them, I'll close on their closing and use my inside power.

Even if "you think" they can "over power" (implying that mentally you've lost already although I'm sure you didn't mean it that way) you shouldn't look at it that way in my opinion.

If they are silly enough to think they are going to come straight in and over power you cut the angle and catch them coming in or take a step back and shoot a side kick.

just some thoughts, jb :asian:

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by jbkenpo

First let me say this is a great dialogue. I have a lot of respect for those that explore and search...So now let me ask some questions and make some comments that will allow me to explore what your doing.

Originally posted by Seig

If you envision a four inch bubble all the way around your body, six if that seems too close to you, then any attack outside of that zone forces an extension if not over extension to meet the attack.

Does this include kicks? Kicks would seem to have a much greater capacity than 4 inches. Or is this primarily some sort of hand isolation drill without feet.


to trampoline(bounce) from a hard or soft block to a strike.

What do you mean by trapoline (bounce)? Is this a closing gap method? Or are you referring to a ricochette off of the attacker's or your own body.


IF someone is trying to close and I think they can overpower me, I create distance. If I KNOW I can overpower them, I'll close on their closing and use my inside power.

Even if "you think" they can "over power" (implying that mentally you've lost already although I'm sure you didn't mean it that way) you shouldn't look at it that way in my opinion.

If they are silly enough to think they are going to come straight in and over power you cut the angle and catch them coming in or take a step back and shoot a side kick.

just some thoughts, jb :asian:

1.) Yes this also allows for feet. The concept being that if a powerfull technique is in close enough (but not too close to block) then you can use your bodies mass to increase the strength of a block. of course, this becomes unnecessary if you negate the kick at it's inception or before apex of power.
2.) I am referring to a richochet when I say trampoline. Think of a back yard trampoline.
3.) What I mean by overpowering is someone being able to kick or punch through a block. I do this frequently to my upper belts. If they try to parry and miss, I blow through it. If they try a hard block and it is not strong enough, same thing.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Make a short video tape and send me on this idea.....:asian:

 

[Seig]

That's not a bad idea, or I could simply wait til you come up here and have a lengthy discourse/demo with you on the subject! We can then pick it apart together.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Get your video tape out and film all the forms you know for me.........

 

[Seig]

Time to refresh my memory!

 

[Tiger84]

I have personally developed what I call the "Four Inch Rule" and so far I have not seen it refuted. I will try to take someting simple and make it complex so the braniacs here can understand it Basically what it is is this: If an an UNARMED attack is more than four inches away from the outline of your body, it is not really a threat, don't reach for it. If it penetrates the four inch barrier, use your closest weapon to defend against it. It is important to also note that I insist on keeping your hands at least four inches from what ever area they are protecting yet no more than six. For example, ifyou are in a right foot forward fighting stance, your left hand shouldbe checking your mid section butbe between four and six inches form your body. Now if someone penetrated to your mid-section with a kick/punch, use that hand to defend yourself. If that is not explanation enough, I will go into it more later.:asian:

I would never intentionally let some one get as close a 4", your arms extend much farther than that although I agree that you don't want to be reaching for the attacks. Everyone should be taught the proper dimensions for their defensive maneuvers and simply do not reach farther than that.