重心 Zhòngxīn center of gravity

[windwalker099]

The recent discussions on 含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi), expanding the back and sinking the chest used in Taiji.

Thought it might be interesting to look at it from a different viewpoint, one of functionality over what some might feel are health concerns.
含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi), among many requirements, is used as part of a whole to create a synergistic effect using the body.

definitions provided by ChatGPT

Center of Mass (CM):
Definition: The center of mass is a point representing the mean position of the mass in a body or system. It is the weighted average location of all the mass in an object.

Center of Gravity (CG):
Definition: The center of gravity is the point at which the entire weight of a body or system is considered to act. It is the average location of the weight of an object.

General statement:

practices that maintain the center within the body



practices that use the center outside the body

Guang-ping Yang Tai Chi Standing

This practice is called "Zhan Zhuang (站桩)"


Methods are developed through the use of body shape and intention of use.
含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi) expanding the back and sinking the chest, part of the requirement for
"zhan zhuang" practice..In order to develop the awareness feeling of being able to move the center..

Thoughts ?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Center of Mass (CM):
Definition: The center of mass is a point representing the mean position of the mass in a body or system. It is the weighted average location of all the mass in an object.

Center of Gravity (CG):
Definition: The center of gravity is the point at which the entire weight of a body or system is considered to act. It is the average location of the weight of an object.

My understanding of physics is not sufficient for me to effectively differentiate between the two, but I will venture a comment on the part I underlined. I'll propose (for this example) that the "act" is delivering a strike:

\ l
.. \ --> l
... \ l
This represents an attacker moving against an opponent in this illustrative abstract example.

\ l
\ l
\l
Here, contact is made but not by the center. Forward action continues...

\ l
\l
l\
Here the center makes contact but the bottom's energy has been expended, and the top has not yet contributed.

While the center gets to the target, the "entire weight of a body or system" has not been delivered. Eventually the top will be, but the three parts will not have been delivered simultaneously with synergistic effect.

For maximum power a way must be employed so all the mass/weight/system's power is delivered together. It must be unified. Manipulation/control of the center (CG/CM?) is important as it is the unifier, allowing not just the center's potential force, but the entire body's force to be delivered as one. Chinkuchi is a part of this.

Mass is useless if it's not delivered, its power transferred to the target. In terms of attack, power generation and transfer are the main areas of concern and has many elements, mostly dependent on the center (tan-tien/tanden).

CM/CG in regard to balance have some different concerns but do come into play if balance becomes a casualty in the process of delivering power. Sanchin kata addresses this point, IMO.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My understanding of physics is not sufficient for me to effectively differentiate between the two, but I will venture a comment on the part I underlined. I'll propose (for this example) that the "act" is delivering a strike:

\ l.......This represents an attacker moving against an opponent in this illustrative abstract example.
\ --> l
\.................. l

\ l Here, contact is made \ l Here the center makes contact
\ l but not by the center. \l but the bottom's energy has been expended
\l Forward action continues... l\ and the top has not yet contributed.

While the center gets to the target, the "entire weight of a body or system" has not been delivered. Eventually the top will be, but the three parts will not have been delivered simultaneously with synergistic effect.

For maximum power a way must be employed so all the mass/weight/system's power is delivered together. It must be unified. Manipulation/control of the center (CG/CM?) is important as it is the unifier, allowing not just the center's potential force, but the entire body's force to be delivered as one. Chinkuchi is a part of this.

Mass is useless if it's not delivered, its power transferred to the target. In terms of attack, power generation and transfer are the main areas of concern and has many elements, mostly dependent on the center (tan-tien/tanden).

CM/CG in regard to balance have some different concerns but do come into play if balance becomes a casualty in the process of delivering power. Sanchin kata addresses this point, IMO.

Great post.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Great post.

In posting it the format of the diagrams went to hell. I hope the intent is still decipherable to others. I edited it but it did not help much.

 

[windwalker099]

CM/CG in regard to balance have some different concerns but do come into play if balance becomes a casualty in the process of delivering power. Sanchin kata addresses this point, IMO.

How does it address it ?
By what method ?


Thanks for the drawings, very cool

The thread is not really about right or wrong, proving or disproving. The intention is to help provide a lens through which to view things, with others offering their perspectives.

At the same time, addresses some practices that some had issues with, like 含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi), offering some thoughts on the functionality of the practice.

Key in this concept it can be changed to one's advantage, depending on the method.
Or it can be used independently of itself, through a method.

重心 Zhòngxīn center of gravity a key component among some practices..
Notably, those labeled as being internal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"zhan zhuang" practice..In order to develop the awareness feeling of being able to move the center..

Thoughts ?

You can't learn "move your center" through "zhan zhuang" practice. You need to learn from footwork.

practices that maintain the center within the body

Why do you need to maintain the center within the body?

You need to:

- move your gravity center outside of your base.
- let the gravity to pull your body down.
- You then use footwork to regain your center/balance back.

All throwing techniques are built on top of this principle. Here are some training to achieve that.





In this video, at 0.01, when he sweeps his opponent's leg, his gravity center is outside of his base. The gravity pulls his body down. But he moves back his right leg to regain his balance.

Sometimes, it may need many steps to regain the balance back. I call this take down and take off.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In this video, he kicks out and move his gravity center to be outside of his base. The gravity pulls him down. He drops his kicking leg and punch his opponent's face.

Taiji system also uses this principle to use kick to set up punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This practice is called "Zhan Zhuang (站桩)"


Methods are developed through the use of body shape and intention of use.
含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi) expanding the back and sinking the chest, part of the requirement for
"zhan zhuang" practice..In order to develop the awareness feeling of being able to move the center..

Thoughts ?

Taiji requirement is not universal.

"含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi) expanding the back and sinking the chest" is not the only "zhan zhuang" practice. There are "zhan zhuang" practice that require expanding chest too.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In posting it the format of the diagrams went to hell. I hope the intent is still decipherable to others. I edited it but it did not help much.

More important was what you wrote. I got it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Taiji requirement is not universal.

"含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi) expanding the back and sinking the chest" is not the only "zhan zhuang" practice. There are "zhan zhuang" practice that require expanding chest too.

View attachment 32377

View attachment 32376

If you fail to throw the opponent you will still be off balanced. I won’t sacrifice my root to attack my opponent. I am not saying you are doing anything wrong, it works for you. I am saying that it’s not how I do it, and that works for me.

 

[isshinryuronin]

How does it address it ?
By what method ?

Key features of Okinawan karate include what is termed in Chinese as baida, short-distance technique, and fajin, explosive power (as defined by I. Cohen), especially in Shorei/Naha styles. This may appear to be contradictory by many as their practice of producing power depends on building speed over distance, physically projecting their center toward the opponent (body movement). An example of this might be a full step forward and oi-tsuki punch ending in zen kutsu dachi deep stance. Much distance is covered by the fist, 5 or 6 feet (assisting in acceleration) and momentum (power) is generated - speed and mass over distance combine for a strong punch.

One of the things sanchin kata does is teach projecting power without moving your center forward in space, thus preserving balance. The body (and center, CM/CG) remains in a stationary vertical axis while the punch is projected horizontally. A strong base is required, and this is where a rooted stance and locked hips come in.

This can be demonstrated by facing a partner and placing a punch partly extended against his resisting palm. You try to push his hand back with your punch. Then, suddenly, he withdraws his hand. The likely result is that you will fall forward, unbalanced, or at least your punch will fly forward uncontrolled. This will not happen if proficient in sanchin.

Producing explosive power over (very) short distance is difficult to achieve and harder to explain. Imagine a battle between a submarine and destroyer. The destroyer drops a depth charge in close proximity to the sub. The charge detonates. The shock wave force travels thru the water and destroys the sub. The depth charge itself (think center) does not cause the damage. It, and the water itself does not travel, just the wave of energy produced by the explosion. As to the nature of the explosion and its effect in producing power, I can't explain in karate terms (but chinkuchi is involved). This is a skill that must be acquired (rather than taught IMO) over time by the individual, but I think the submarine example roughly illustrates the concept.

As you can see, there is no short answer . And this is only the way I personally visualize the answer to your questions. I really can't explain it - I just do it.

 

[windwalker099]

I really can't explain it - I just do it.

This practice reminds me of some Southern CMA practices
Most would refer to this practice as waijia (外家) or external practices use to focus and generate power.

For clarity:

Waijia (外家) is terminology that some might interpret as suggesting one practice is superior to another, rather than simply different. It is used to denote a focus of practice with specific expected outcomes from the practice.

One of the things sanchin kata does is teach projecting power without moving your center forward in space, thus preserving balance.The body (and center, CM/CG) remains in a stationary vertical axis while the punch is projected horizontally. A strong base is required, and this is where a rooted stance and locked hips come in.

Very nice post, in depth, comprehensive..

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

speed and mass over distance combine for a strong punch.

When we talk about static punch, we should also talk about dynamic punch (punch with footwork).

Example of dynamic punch.

 

[Appledog]

Methods are developed through the use of body shape and intention of use.
含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi) expanding the back and sinking the chest, part of the requirement for
"zhan zhuang" practice..In order to develop the awareness feeling of being able to move the center..

Thoughts ?

It's comical to me that you present guang ping standing as an exercise of center outside of the body when it is really an exercise of contain the chest and sink the shoulders.

You (windwalker) are the last of a generation. You may or may not have learned from someone with linage in the past but In the future you must be able to show this (linage) in the future because otherwise the remaining 3% of the art remaining will be destroyed by chatgpt. You have to have the right to speak for the da shi. You, sadly, do not. So you are the last one. After you, there will be 1000 more people who say different things and no one will know what is the truth.

There are ways to fix these problems, but they are not the concern of straw dogs like you and me, are they? We're just not in the right timeline. Oh well!

 

[Same Trick]

Yes in such ZhanZhuang postures as for example Kou is holding in that picture in the OP, one work with imagined forces outside one’s body, one could call them imaginary “centers of mass”(as the OP states) especially so with one of the mind applications to that posture, usually the one beginner’s work with, it’s important to find and develop the idea of up/down-vertical force. Then other similar but yet different mind applications are added that will eventually harness a spherical sensory. All the while during the stages of the practice one’s own mind/body center is developed to perfection without even a single focus on any such things as dantian, meridians and inner Qi flow..

So from this, I can agree that such rules of thoughts as “sink the chest and expand the back” is wrong because one then lock one’s mind on parts on ones own body and risk to be stuck there, such way has absolutely no relevance to martial arts practice.

Instead of “sink the chest” it might be more appropriate to say “empty the chest”if one is to say anything chest-wize, then one can go on and focus on what it’s relevant.in order gain the great achievement the ZhanZhuang exercise has in store. Same would apply to the practice of Taijiquan.

 

[Appledog]

Yes in such ZhanZhuang postures as for example Kou is holding in that picture in the OP, one work with imagined forces outside one’s body, one could call them imaginary “centers of mass”(as the OP states) especially so with one of the mind applications to that posture, usually the one beginner’s work with, it’s important to find and develop the idea of up/down-vertical force. Then other similar but yet different mind applications are added that will eventually harness a spherical sensory. All the while during the stages of the practice one’s own mind/body center is developed to perfection without even a single focus on any such things as dantian, meridians and inner Qi flow..

So from this, I can agree that such rules of thoughts as “sink the chest and expand the back” is wrong because one then lock one’s mind on parts on ones own body and risk to be stuck there, such way has absolutely no relevance to martial arts practice.

Instead of “sink the chest” it might be more appropriate to say “empty the chest”if one is to say anything chest-wize, then one can go on and focus on what it’s relevant.in order gain the great achievement the ZhanZhuang exercise has in store. Same would apply to the practice of Taijiquan.

Imagined centers of gravity outside the body seems to conflict with not focusing on anything. I don't know about yiquan but in xinyi and in taiji there is no such practice.

I would say the only problem with rules (such as sink the chest etc) is that they are taught in isolation of the underlying jibengong. Then people think they know and understand but they don't because they cannot do it. This is kind of what wang xiangzhai was railing against for most of his career; If you know the practice the rule becomes the mark of success, not some imaginary goal you are trying to achieve. That is how it should be in both arts.

Anyways, yiquan and taijiquan are similar but different arts. Generally, you don't do standing in Taijiquan, but as always there are special circumstances.

 

[Same Trick]

In Xingyiquan santishi (ZZ) and form practice there is work on “feeling” forces that push/pull one one’s presence,, similar is found in TJQ form practice. It has to be so if one practice these as martial arts

 

[windwalker099]

It's comical to me that you present guang ping standing as an exercise of center outside of the body when it is really an exercise of contain the chest and sink the shoulders.

Might want to re-read it..."This practice is called "Zhan Zhuang (站桩)" no matter what line of taiji it's from, or verbiage used to describe the practice. Why it's done may differ.

To be able to move the "center," one must first be aware of it. The center is created, in part, by the shape of the body, its functionality according to the mind's awareness.

Sinking or hollowing the chest, while flattening or raising the back, creates a slight arch. This, along with other requirements, allows one to become aware of their center, which can later be used directly.

The practice of 含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi), or sinking the chest and raising the back, is a technique along with others used to enhance this awareness and develop the necessary body mechanics.

where is the "cg" in the picture ?

He mentions the same requirement "hollow your chest relax your shoulders" different words, the meaning is the same.

You have to have the right to speak for the da shi. You, sadly, do not. So you are the last one. After you, there will be 1000 more people who say different things and no one will know what is the truth.

There are ways to fix these problems, but they are not the concern of straw dogs like you and me, are they? We're just not in the right timeline. Oh well!

"the right to speak for the da shi"



Still living in your mind ?
My words, based on the path I walk.

"Fix problems".

Don't know about fixing problems do help people with questions,
allowing them to fix their own problems.
In some cases they help me fix mine.

He didn't know it, he was pushing on himself.
feeling if he applied more force he would move me..

So from this, I can agree that such rules of thoughts as “sink the chest and expand the back” is wrong because one then lock one’s mind on parts on ones own body and risk to be stuck there, such way has absolutely no relevance to martial arts practice.

Instead of “sink the chest” it might be more appropriate to say “empty the chest”if one is to say anything chest-wize,

The sayings "含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi) " common expression's, among others used to help correct the outer frame that will help in developing an inner awareness. The inner awareness allows one to use the shape crated by body, directed by the mind. Much later becoming formless.



How it's expressed or what it's used for varies according to style and method developed.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Key features of Okinawan karate include what is termed in Chinese as baida, short-distance technique, and fajin, explosive power (as defined by I. Cohen), especially in Shorei/Naha styles. This may appear to be contradictory by many as their practice of producing power depends on building speed over distance, physically projecting their center toward the opponent (body movement). An example of this might be a full step forward and oi-tsuki punch ending in zen kutsu dachi deep stance. Much distance is covered by the fist, 5 or 6 feet (assisting in acceleration) and momentum (power) is generated - speed and mass over distance combine for a strong punch.

One of the things sanchin kata does is teach projecting power without moving your center forward in space, thus preserving balance. The body (and center, CM/CG) remains in a stationary vertical axis while the punch is projected horizontally. A strong base is required, and this is where a rooted stance and locked hips come in.

This can be demonstrated by facing a partner and placing a punch partly extended against his resisting palm. You try to push his hand back with your punch. Then, suddenly, he withdraws his hand. The likely result is that you will fall forward, unbalanced, or at least your punch will fly forward uncontrolled. This will not happen if proficient in sanchin.

Producing explosive power over (very) short distance is difficult to achieve and harder to explain. Imagine a battle between a submarine and destroyer. The destroyer drops a depth charge in close proximity to the sub. The charge detonates. The shock wave force travels thru the water and destroys the sub. The depth charge itself (think center) does not cause the damage. It, and the water itself does not travel, just the wave of energy produced by the explosion. As to the nature of the explosion and its effect in producing power, I can't explain in karate terms (but chinkuchi is involved). This is a skill that must be acquired (rather than taught IMO) over time by the individual, but I think the submarine example roughly illustrates the concept.

As you can see, there is no short answer . And this is only the way I personally visualize the answer to your questions. I really can't explain it - I just do it.

Yes and yes and yes, I agree. This is a good description. I don’t know Sanchin, but Iron Wire ( Tid Sin Kuen ) is similar in functionality for training purposes. My one question is about “locked” hips. Could you elaborate on this point? I don’t want to hang up on chosen adjectives because I think we are talking about similar if not exactly the same thing using different descriptions.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Might want to re-read it..."This practice is called "Zhan Zhuang (站桩)" no matter what line of taiji it's from, or verbiage used to describe the practice. Why it's done may differ.

To be able to move the "center," one must first be aware of it. The center is created, in part, by the shape of the body, its functionality according to the mind's awareness.

Sinking or hollowing the chest, while flattening or raising the back, creates a slight arch. This, along with other requirements, allows one to become aware of their center, which can later be used directly.

This approach is foundational in many internal practices, such as Taiji, where the awareness and manipulation of one's center of gravity (center) are crucial for effective movement and power generation. The practice of 含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi), or sinking the chest and raising the back, is a technique used to enhance this awareness and develop the necessary body mechanics.

where is the "cg" in the picture ?

He mentions the same requirement "hollow your chest relax your shoulders" different words, the meaning is the same.



Still living in your mind ?
My words, mine based on the path I walk.
"Fix problems".

Don't know about problems do help people with questions, allowing them to fix their own problems.
In some cases they help me fix mine.

The sayings "含胸拔背 (hán xiōng bá bèi) " common expression's, among others used to help correct the outer frame that will help in developing an inner awareness. The inner awareness allows one to use the shape directed by the mind.



How it's expressed or what it's used for varies according to style and method developed.

I agree with most of this except the diagram with a rounded back. TaiChiChuan (Supreme Grand Ultimate Pole/fist). I feel the toes long and the heels long, feel the center of foot, put pinkie toe down for balance line, put big toe down for power line, start to lift big toe but don’t actually lift it off the floor, screw the bottom of right foot clockwise into ground, screw bottom of left foot counterclockwise into ground, take tension out of ankle and let shin bone feel like a stick in a hole, take tension out of knee and feel the space inside the knee, supinate the femurs, feel the space between legs as round, squeeze inwards and press outwards, imagine a “T” on the chest and a “T” on the back, squeeze them together, lift the inside of the abdominals, let the lumbar go down, wrap the lats around to the front, keep the armpit open, carry the upper arm, let the shoulder girdle float on top, throat holds up the head, head holds up heaven, etc etc. I want to feel the center weight down, yet lifted, expanded, yet compressed. It doesn’t mean I’m stiffed into this position, it means this is where my posture is when I start and end the form. I don’t need to arch or bend the spine to contain the chest.