Youtube And Competition

[MJS]

As some of you might know, there is a lengthy thread in the MMA section, comparing MMA to TMA. During the thread, there has been a lot of talk about youtube and competition. I thought I'd start a separate thread to discuss these two things.

Some people tend to put a lot of faith in YT videos, almost as if what is seen on YT, is "THE" answer to what arts are good and what arts are not. As we all know, there are some very good, high quality clips out there, and there are also many crappy clips. That said, I'm not sure how or why, some tend to use that as the measuring stick regarding quality.

Some also feel that it's important to video yourself so others have a visual as to what you can/can't do, rather than just having to rely on typed words. Speaking for myself, I have video of myself during workouts, as well as a tournament that I fought in last year. While I'm not ashamed of any of this, I use it primarily as a learning tool. I'll record the workout, and review it later, make note of mistakes, things that I did good, etc. I really have no desire to showcase myself to the world.

Competition: Some arts such as BJJ, tend to be more competition oriented than other arts. This usually leads to the "My art is too deadly to spar" comments, which, well...we all know where that leads! The art that I train now, Kyokushin, is big into competition. We spar on a regular basis in class, as well as attend/hold tournaments in CT, NY, etc. For me, while I enjoy the fighting aspect, I don't place it as high as others do. I'm not saying I hate it or don't think it's important, I'm just saying that for me, it's a smaller piece of the training.

So, enough rambling from me. Now I'd like to get feedback from the members here. Do you feel that is necessary to post YT clips of yourself and your art or that it should be used as the measuring stick on what's effective and what is not? What about competition? Do you feel that those arts out there that do not compete, are less in quality, than those that do?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What about competition?

You can use

- partner drills to "develop" your skill.
- sparring/wrestling to "test" your skill.
- weight/equipment training to "enhance" your skill.
- solo drills to "polish" your skill.

You may use partner drill to develop one of your skills (such as "hip throw") 10,000 times. It still doesn't mean that you will be able to use it in sparring/wrestling. So to have a safe and friendly "testing" environment is very important.

Only after you have used a certain move (such as hip throw) successfully many times in a "testing" environment, you can then assume that move (such as hip throw) is in your toolbox. Until then that tool is still not in your toolbox yet.

 

[K-man]

I think that there is some really good material on youtube and a thousand times more that is terrible. Someone else sees the same video and thinks it is all wonderful, so the interpretation depends on the experience of the beholder. Sometimes it works the other way where someone posts a great example of a particular technique and others with little understanding reckon it is rubbish.

I quite often trawl through videos I think might be interesting and download quite a few for future reference. But others make me cringe. That is particularly the case when someone sets themselves up as an expert and posts stuff that if you had to rely on it in a life and death situation could get you killed. That happens frequently when someone thinks they have a whoopy doopy new defence against knives.

Then again, social media being what it is now means every man and his dog are documenting their activity. To me it yells, "look at me, look at me." It might be the most abysmal stuff but becomes cannon fodder for people like our friend from other places who wants to defend a position. I can recall a couple of guys who reckoned they were God's gift to the martial art community who posted clips on MT and it was the most abysmal stuff. Then they justified it by saying that it was taken years ago. Well, to my mind, if it was crap years ago it is still crap now so why bother to post it at all? Do they think that other people are all less experienced than them?

As to the need for competition. Sure, if that lights your fire go for it. Years ago the guys I trained with were the Australian Karate team and the coach was my Chief instructor. I thought they were Christmas and although I was way too old, strived to be as good as they were, a forlorn ambition. Now I look back and wish I could have used some of that time and energy pursuing more of the reality based stuff. That's not denigrating anyone that wants to compete, just that your perspective changes as you get older. Now well into my 60s I have no need to compete and I have enough confidence in my ability to know what I can do if the need arises. I don't feel the need to show anyone what I can do and I certainly won't be going around saying "I do the real stuff, my stuff is better than yours".

Still, having said that, there are some terrible examples of training venues around. In fairness many of them genuinely are trying to do a good job just that the results could be questioned. Sometimes people will find one of those venues, recognise it for what it is then bag every other school of that style purely on one bad experience.

So I will continue to train diligently, I'll continue to research thoroughly, I'll continue to read widely and I'll pursue my ambition to be an armchair warrior on MT.

 

[Mauthos]

I have never had the inclination to post videos of myself to Youtube or any other social media as I do not see myself offering anything new or necesarily so unique that it must be shared. However, I have used Youtube on a number of occassions to help me recall stuff and as research. For me this has meant using Casa De Kenpo channel to help jog my memory and also Rick Jeffcoat's stuff, but in searching through their stuff I have come across a lot of Kenpo posts by several different 'masters' that leave a lot to be desired.

So whilst I do think people who have something to offer should probably post their stuff to help out others, there are hundreds of others whos should definitely left their cameras off.

As with competition, I don't compete now and to be honest I never really competed outside of inter-club stuff (and a brief stint boxing in the RAF) and I do think the full-contact nature of my competing did help me improve as a fighter, but I do not believe it offered my anything extra outside of my own training that I would not have achieved over time. I understand that a lot of people love to compete and I see nothing wrong with that, now, as I get older I too, like K-man, do not see the necessity in competing in order to be a complete, effective and well-rounded martial artist.

 

[Zero]

Good post.
I tend to use Youtube as a reference/reminder/research tool, much as Mauthos and K-man. If I am travelling or cannot get to the dojo and need to think through a certain kata, I will use youtube. But then I only generally go to the clips from those I recognise as being credible reference sources for my style. As said there is a lot of baloney out there. I also like to look up certain fights and footage, which is entertaining but from which you can also be exposed to a new move, or new application to a move, that you can put in your repetoire or put to practice.
It is cringeworthy the amount of self-professed martial arts masters or warrior wannabes that post stuff for applause, acclaim or proof of expertise for it to only be, well, sub-amature level at best and riddled with error. I honestly don't know why so many seem to now have the inability to self-judge and realise, "hey, I gotta heck of a ways to go here so let's just keep in touch with reality before someone actually whoops my a's~!" There's a few on MT that have got some shocker links : ) Me, I know my limitations so I don't need to air that to the world (my coaches/sensei/peers etc can give me the input I need rather than random net-trolls) : ) maybe sometime when I am real bored and want to give everyone a good laugh. Also, I generally have a strong attachment to anonymity, particularly with the web and even somewhat smaller forums such as MT, so it would take some thinking before I load anything up anywheres...(I must be nuts or something as everyone from 5 year olds to grannies in their 90s seem to be unashameably posting stuff all over the show).

As for competition, I love it and always havem be it judo when I was a kid, TKD through high school or karate from early 20s onwards. I still compete (I am still very competitive) but more for fun now, or I pick my times when I am fight fit. I gotta pay a shed load of bills and work like a son o.... and there's a certain reality when you hope to train 1 hour or 2 a day (including skill and conditioning) and come up against those with the time or commitmnent to be training 3 or more hours a day or full time (ah to be back in school with all that time, I thought I was busy back then, lol!!). ALso, as just posted yesterday, while I am just as strong, and a smarter and perhaps holistically better fighter now, I don't heal quick like I used to.

I think competition can be very good for your conditioning and development as a fighter and can pay big dividends if one needs to act in the street - however, this is very dependant on the mindset and openmindedness of the individual and how they apply that tournament experience, it also depends on the style and types of tournament. Point fighting, while certain technique may be great, has no or little place in my view. Full contact (be it wrestling or striking) is very good as a wake up call and for expossing one to what it is like to be in a real physical altercation but it needs to be mixed with an appreciation of:
- hey, I am not wearing gloves now,
- he may be packing or have a knife or mates behind me,
- he won't abide to tournament rules I am used to,
- hey, there are better options rather than physicality, such as awareness/avoidance, de-escalation, flight.

A lot of sports fighters miss all of this, either from the mindset they get from ring fighting or the complete lack of SD in their training in general. That said, I have seen some TMA guys (one from my old WC club) (with little or no tournament/competition in their style) also get whooped on the street as they have been cocooned in their style and have made assumptions about what it will like to be to really fight someone or the abilities of an "untrained" fighter.

 

[Fritz]

I feel like YouTube is like martial arts teachers and schools in "real life"- lots are good, and even more are bad, I guess it is up to each viewer to make up their mind.

That said, I feel the real value applies to videos related to the art/system that you are studying since at least we could have an idea of what is going on. Kind of a way to check out different perspectives of other instructors and training ideas in your art.

The biggest hurdle with YT vids, and I can't really see a way around it is the context of it- as other have said- you are only seeing a few minutes or more of something much bigger.

A few minutes before the vid started did the instructor say....now don't do THIS...

Of, this is a training drill only, in real application it would be different.

Often much is left out.

 

[Kframe]

I can only think of two drawback to noncompeting arts. The biggest in my eyes, and one that im struggling with is that those arts that don't compete tend to be filled with over weight to obese people. With out the desire to compete and the need to stay fit for competition it leads to many people not pushing them selves. Secondly and this only really applies to some types of schools like mcdojo but it can lead to a lack of pressure testing in any form.

IMHO ANY martial artist needs to be fit enough to fight for more then a minute and be able to run at a sprint for a good distance. Im working on that my self.

That's the only problems I can see with non competing arts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are many advantage to "test" your skill.

In partner training, your opponent gives you that opportunity. In sparring/wrestling, your opponent won't give you that opportunity and you have to create that opportunity by yourself. If your spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, you won't have "style boundary attitude - my style doesn't do this, ..." for the rest of your life.

Almost everybody can learn from a good clip as the following.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDkyMTIzMDE2.html

 

[Hanzou]

I can only think of two drawback to noncompeting arts. The biggest in my eyes, and one that im struggling with is that those arts that don't compete tend to be filled with over weight to obese people. With out the desire to compete and the need to stay fit for competition it leads to many people not pushing them selves. Secondly and this only really applies to some types of schools like mcdojo but it can lead to a lack of pressure testing in any form.

IMHO ANY martial artist needs to be fit enough to fight for more then a minute and be able to run at a sprint for a good distance. Im working on that my self.

That's the only problems I can see with non competing arts.

I'm struggling to think of any overweight people at my school. Outside of people who just began, I really can't think of any. When I began, I weighed about 220lbs. I now weigh about 185lbs, and after every class the sweat is pouring off my body. I never experienced that in Karate, where I would finish a class with a light sweat at best. Rolling in Bjj is a tiring and vigorous excercise. There's just no way you can be out of shape and roll for an extended amount of time.

As for YT, its a great resource.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The biggest in my eyes, and one that im struggling with is that those arts that don't compete tend to be filled with over weight to obese people.

If you spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, there is no way that you will be fat. Also after 10 rounds, you have used all your energy, you will start to learn how to

- relax,
- yield,
- sink,
- sticky,
- follow,
- borrow your opponent's force,
- ...

Without a safe and friendly "competition" environment, I just don't know anybody will be able to 'test" his skill. Here is a clip that one of my guys tested his skill in "competition" environment not too long ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoL_BfhMXOw&feature=youtu.be

IMO, a picture is better than 1000 words, and a youtube clip is better than 1000 pictures. During online discussion, if I can find an existence clip, I'll use it. If I can't, I'll try to make one.

 

[SENC-33]

I am a Systema guy so I know all about the youtube thing and Systema takes some of the harshest abuse of any style in the video world. You can't judge the "true effectiveness" of something without witnessing it first hand IMO......I had a friend of mine who scoffed at me a few years ago when I picked Systema up as my base training method so I had him over for a workout. After rolling around on the mats and constantly moving, striking and being hit (even mildly) he was smoked at the end.

As far as testing skills that is highly subjective.

 

[MJS]

I'm struggling to think of any overweight people at my school. Outside of people who just began, I really can't think of any. When I began, I weighed about 220lbs. I now weigh about 185lbs, and after every class the sweat is pouring off my body. I never experienced that in Karate, where I would finish a class with a light sweat at best. Rolling in Bjj is a tiring and vigorous excercise. There's just no way you can be out of shape and roll for an extended amount of time.

As for YT, its a great resource.

LOL, funny you should say that. When I was training in various Kenpo schools, it was rare, during a typical class, that the sweat was pouring off of me. A bit over 2 yrs. ago, I joined my Kyokushin dojo. I remember prior to officially joining, my teacher told me to take a few trial classes, as his classes were very hard. In the back of my mind, I was thinking, "How hard can it be? I've been doing Kenpo for 20+yrs, am in fairly good shape, this shouldn't be too hard." Well, the joke was on me, considering I was exhausted and we were about half way thru the hour long class. Time for the conditioning, ie: push ups, sit ups, etc. Faced my partner, interlocked our legs and went around the room, counting out sets of 10 situps until we hit 100. LOL...couldn't make it thru the 100. Now, with going to class 2-3 times a week, in addition to stuff I do at home, I'm in much better shape. He wasn't kidding that it was going to be hard, but you know what....I love it! IMHO, THAT is the way training should be! I leave every class soaked!

As for YT...I put YT into the same grouping that I would put instructional videos. They're a great reference, but as the sole training tool or measuring stick...no. I'll use Kenpo as an example...I've seen some Kenpo clips that probably have GM. Parker rolling in his grave, while I've seen others that probably have him smiling. Does this mean ALL Kenpo sucks? No, but as I said in that other thread, if you want the best, you gotta look for it.

 

[MJS]

I am a Systema guy so I know all about the youtube thing and Systema takes some of the harshest abuse of any style in the video world. You can't judge the "true effectiveness" of something without witnessing it first hand IMO......I had a friend of mine who scoffed at me a few years ago when I picked Systema up as my base training method so I had him over for a workout. After rolling around on the mats and constantly moving, striking and being hit (even mildly) he was smoked at the end.

As far as testing skills that is highly subjective.

I've always thought it was an interesting art. I've watched some YT clips and wasn't that impressed. Of course, until you actually do it, the opinion can be distorted. however, I have talked to people who have trained it and love it! Of course, it's very possible the clips that I was watching weren't good clips.

You're right...you can't judge the true effectiveness of it by a clip.

 

[SENC-33]

I've always thought it was an interesting art. I've watched some YT clips and wasn't that impressed. Of course, until you actually do it, the opinion can be distorted. however, I have talked to people who have trained it and love it! Of course, it's very possible the clips that I was watching weren't good clips.

You're right...you can't judge the true effectiveness of it by a clip.

Seasoned MA practitioners are more apt to be critical of Sytema especially when looking at videos. I have always had an open mind about any style but I am intelligent enough to know that no style is 100% effective especially with combatives which is how I train and instruct. I didn't fully get on board until I attended a few seminars and got my hands dirty with it and it's hard to grasp the true concepts when the videos are in Russian/broken english. Val Riazanove and Kevin Secours are 2 of the best to watch when trying to realistically gauge Systema from a video standpoint.

 

[MJS]

Seasoned MA practitioners are more apt to be critical of Sytema especially when looking at videos. I have always had an open mind about any style but I am intelligent enough to know that no style is 100% effective especially with combatives which is how I train and instruct. I didn't fully get on board until I attended a few seminars and got my hands dirty with it and it's hard to grasp the true concepts when the videos are in Russian/broken english. Val Riazanove and Kevin Secours are 2 of the best to watch when trying to realistically gauge Systema from a video standpoint.

Thanks for the recommendation. Just checked out a few clips of Val. Good stuff!

 

[SENC-33]

Thanks for the recommendation. Just checked out a few clips of Val. Good stuff!

STRIKING is what you will gain the most from when it comes to Systema. The striking ability is mind numbing and it is really more about "adding" something to what you already know. When you fully understand the waveform striking and how to take it from long and drawn out to compact where you barely notice it the effect just comes together. Once you really learn to relax the entire body and keep it relaxed you become amazed at how many ways you can apply those "waves" even though it may look silly at first. I spend several minutes a day relaxing, breathing and moving my body in wavelike motions to the point that they become natural reflexes. This also works extremely well with chokes, grabs and throws.

Now the knife defenses? Not the best demonstrations technique wise.

 

[SENC-33]

Some my favorite videos that "I" consider realistic when it comes to Systema strikes

Throws, grabs and chokes