Your 1st Dan testing..

[BrandonLucas]

Every organization, whether KKW, ITF, ATA etc., has certain criteria of what someone testing for 1st Dan should meet. Either you meet those criteria or you do not. Either you have good stances, balance, accuracy, stopping power, and speed, or you do not. I do not need to see you do every form you ever learned to tell this. The final forms are sufficient. I do not need to see you spar 30 people until you drop to determine if your ability is worthy of 1st Dan. Sparring several people will tell me the same thing. Same with breaking. 2-3 well placed breaks will tell me if your speed, accuracy, stopping power etc. is adequate. Now, if there are only a few people testing, I may want to see more because I have more time. But essentially, any legitimate Master or GM should be able to tell within 20 minutes whether a 1st Dan candidate is ready.
I am reminded of the quote by Albert Einstein who, when told that 100 scientists had signed a petition stating he was wrong, replied, "Why 100? If I'm wrong 1 will do."

I think Daniel actually had a very good response to this...

It could be that the person testing is being judged by someone that is not from their school and is impartial to the student. And, really, IMO, that's the best way to test...that way, you're not getting a biased opinion on your technique and ability...there's no room for excusing a poor test performance on the student being sick or something along those lines.

If an outside judge comes in, they don't know the student that's testing personally, so they won't know what they're capable of on a regular day...so if the student is having an off day, it is going to appear to the judge as if the student needs more time at their current rank.

Even if they don't test in front of someone outside of their school, I don't see the harm in putting a student through a hard test to earn a 1st dan in any martial art. Admittedly, I don't understand the 2 and 3 day tests, but that doesn't mean I don't think they should happen. I simply don't understand them.

A blackbelt is supposed to be earned through hard work and dedication. Isn't it better to have a student subject themselves through a grueling exam, even if it lasts several days, than to pass them through in conveyor-belt fashion?

 

[jks9199]

Folks,
This particular forum is a Tae Kwon Do forum. I hope there's some agreement about what a black belt means. I also would hope that people who share an art can be reasonable, agreeable, polite, and courteous when they discuss the means of testing for black belt, or what their particular test was like. I'd hate to see such a potentially interesting discussion become problematic.

jks9199
Moderator

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Even if they don't test in front of someone outside of their school, I don't see the harm in putting a student through a hard test to earn a 1st dan in any martial art. Admittedly, I don't understand the 2 and 3 day tests, but that doesn't mean I don't think they should happen. I simply don't understand them.

A blackbelt is supposed to be earned through hard work and dedication. Isn't it better to have a student subject themselves through a grueling exam, even if it lasts several days, than to pass them through in conveyor-belt fashion?

From what I have seen, heard from others, and read on forums like this, there is a great deal of latitude regarding first dan test. Some instructors go for a more direct approach, such as what Youngman describes, and others seek to make the even more of a milestone than just a test. Different instructors place value on different aspects of the art too.

Not only that, some teach a great deal of additional material to what their parent org requires. Thus one day could be the base curriculum, a second the additional material, and the third could be the intellectual/philosophical aspects of the art.

We should keep in mind that some schools associate themselves with a parent org because they want their blackbelt/dan certs to have authority above just the individual school's say-so. But that doesn't change the fact that that master has his or her own requirements for that school and an org such as the KKW serves only as a sanctioning body to provide the student with more "official" certificate.

Consider that the three day test doesn't have to be three full days. It could be a total of six hours, but spread out over three days.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

3-4 forms, 3 breaks and a couple fights wont tell you the most important thing:

Do they have HEART

Do they have WILL

Do they have FIRE

My system used to make people fight till they passed out, just to see if they would get back up.NO ONE got black belt without passing out or throwing up.

to see if they wanted it bad enough.

My own instructors have had me take a (adult) person testing for 1st dan and just manhandle them in sparring, grab thier gi, work thier ribs over till they couldnt breath right, sweep them and stomp on 'em

to see if they had HEART

If every school did this, we wouldnt have the curse of 5 yr old BB's

If every school did this, TKD would still be a respected SELF DEFENSE ART, not some Olympic slappy sport

First Degree Black Belt SHOULD be an endurance test, IMO

my student's tests will be

In fact,, i showed them the tape of my BB test after class on sat so they will know what they have in store for them

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If every school did this, we wouldnt have the curse of 5 yr old BB's

If every school did this, TKD would still be a respected SELF DEFENSE ART, not some Olympic slappy sport

First Degree Black Belt SHOULD be an endurance test, IMO

These three sentences should be ingrained in the the minds of every aspiring school owner.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

From what I have seen, heard from others, and read on forums like this, there is a great deal of latitude regarding first dan test. Some instructors go for a more direct approach, such as what Youngman describes, and others seek to make the even more of a milestone than just a test. Different instructors place value on different aspects of the art too.

Not only that, some teach a great deal of additional material to what their parent org requires. Thus one day could be the base curriculum, a second the additional material, and the third could be the intellectual/philosophical aspects of the art.

We should keep in mind that some schools associate themselves with a parent org because they want their blackbelt/dan certs to have authority above just the individual school's say-so. But that doesn't change the fact that that master has his or her own requirements for that school and an org such as the KKW serves only as a sanctioning body to provide the student with more "official" certificate.

Consider that the three day test doesn't have to be three full days. It could be a total of six hours, but spread out over three days.

Daniel

Agreed. Everyone is different in what they do. If what you do suits you and you sleep well at night, then so be it. I just didn't appreciate the judgemental attitude YM took with those of us who have tests that last longer than 20 minutes and then tell us that perhaps we need to find different instructors if our current ones need to put us through a rigorous testing process to see if we are deserving of a black belt. Sorry...my instructor has been in the game for over 40 years, so I would guess he knows a bit with what he is doing in his testing process.

 

[YoungMan]

My instructor was practicing Taekwondo before it was even called Taekwondo. I fully trust his approach because he has never steered me wrong.
Keep in mind, it is a free country, and different instructors are free to pursue their own vision. I still fail to see what a three day 1st Dan test accomplishes that can't be done in half an hour.
I can judge someone fit to wear the black belt in 1/2 hour, and also decide they are not worthy to wear it within that time period, as I have also done.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you don't mind me asking, Youngman, was your test limited to a half an hour? That is was may be implied in your posts, but I wanted to clarify.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

wernt you the one who's system has a 5 mile run in their BB test?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not I. It would have been cool if we had, though.

Daniel

 

[faerie2]

I am intrigued by this thread, we just had a (poom) BB test at our McDojang, and it was ... appalling! It really made me second guess whether I wanted to continue there at all. I do hope that they have different standards for the adults testing.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am intrigued by this thread, we just had a (poom) BB test at our McDojang, and it was ... appalling! It really made me second guess whether I wanted to continue there at all. I do hope that they have different standards for the adults testing.

I am of the firm belief that poom rank students should wear poom doboks and poom belts; poom doboks have a half black/half red collar and the poom belt is half black half red. Then the less demending test would be more in line.

Perhaps it was an appalling test for any upper belt of any age, so the poom belt may not solve the problem here. Generally, I find that most schools with young kids just move them through the colored belt ranks because that's what the parents want and it keeps the school in business. Not saying that I'm personally real thrilled with this, mind you; just that I understand the mentality.

Daniel

 

[faerie2]

I am of the firm belief that poom rank students should wear poom doboks and poom belts; poom doboks have a half black/half red collar and the poom belt is half black half red. Then the less demending test would be more in line.

Perhaps it was an appalling test for any upper belt of any age, so the poom belt may not solve the problem here. Generally, I find that most schools with young kids just move them through the colored belt ranks because that's what the parents want and it keeps the school in business. Not saying that I'm personally real thrilled with this, mind you; just that I understand the mentality.

Daniel

Interesting - is that the way it's done elsewhere too? At our (mc)Dojang, the "black stripe" (1st Gup) is half black, half red and the poom uniforms are red, with a black belt with gold print. THe instructors are the only adult BB's there, and their uniforms are white, black or blue.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am of the firm belief that poom rank students should wear poom doboks and poom belts; poom doboks have a half black/half red collar and the poom belt is half black half red. Then the less demending test would be more in line.

Interesting - is that the way it's done elsewhere too?

No, not for the most part. That is technically how it should be done though. Very few schools are willing to tell mom and dad that their eight year old can't have his black belt until he's sixteen.

At our (mc)Dojang, the "black stripe" (1st Gup) is half black, half red and the poom uniforms are red, with a black belt with gold print. THe instructors are the only adult BB's there, and their uniforms are white, black or blue.

Our school uses a red with a black stripe in the center for furst geub. We have adult BB's who aren't instructors. Our school uses the white dobok with the black collar or an all black dobok for blackbelts, though the kids never get the all black. Not sure if that is by design or just how it works out. Our poom rank students also have black belts with the golds stitching, just like yours does.

Daniel

 

[YoungMan]

If you don't mind me asking, Youngman, was your test limited to a half an hour? That is was may be implied in your posts, but I wanted to clarify.

Daniel

Our 1st Dan tests are limited to whatever the judges and our GM want to see, which generally take no more than a half hour. Each candidate does Palgwe Chil and Pal no count, free fights at least three different people, and does a break that they feel represents their best technique. We don't make them run through every form they ever learned because it is unnecessary. Red belt forms should represent your cumulative technique up to that point.
And yes, the judges can tell whether or not you deserve 1st Dan based on your performance in a half hour time frame. I can watch a student I've never seen before test for 1st Dan and decide whether or not they should be 1st Dan relatively quickly.

 

[miguksaram]

My instructor was practicing Taekwondo before it was even called Taekwondo. I fully trust his approach because he has never steered me wrong.
Keep in mind, it is a free country, and different instructors are free to pursue their own vision. I still fail to see what a three day 1st Dan test accomplishes that can't be done in half an hour.
I can judge someone fit to wear the black belt in 1/2 hour, and also decide they are not worthy to wear it within that time period, as I have also done.

Right...free country to test how you see fit. Just because you don't understand it does not mean it is wrong. Through out this whole thread you have implied that your method is the correct way of judging canidates for black belts and that if you don't follow this way or something close to it then your instructor should be questioned.

How many instructors have you had? How many different methods have you witnessed? I have seen the gambit of 3 days tests down to an instructor just tossing the next belt to you and say congrats, now get back to work. Everyone is different and has a different philosophy behind their method. Perhaps you should open your mind and just accept than to condem based on how things are done in your little corner of the world.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Right...free country to test how you see fit. Just because you don't understand it does not mean it is wrong. Through out this whole thread you have implied that your method is the correct way of judging canidates for black belts and that if you don't follow this way or something close to it then your instructor should be questioned.

How many instructors have you had? How many different methods have you witnessed? I have seen the gambit of 3 days tests down to an instructor just tossing the next belt to you and say congrats, now get back to work. Everyone is different and has a different philosophy behind their method. Perhaps you should open your mind and just accept than to condem based on how things are done in your little corner of the world.

There are many different ways to test for anything. I have heard of alot of instructors that don't let the students know that they're testing, and just observe them over a period of time, and simply give them the black belt with no ceremony.

There are others who test over several days, with the instructor continuously trying to wear down the student to test their heart and spirit.

There's nothing wrong with either test. As long as the person wearing the blackbelt can demonstrate at any given time that they deserve to wear the rank around their waist, then it doesn't matter how they earned it.

I think the OP was started to see what other methods of testing there are, and to get everyone's input in how a test is done for different schools and students...not implying that there is a right and wrong way.

 

[KELLYG]

Every Black Belt test I have taken has been difficult. 4 to 6 hours with most of the time being on the floor and preforming.

I also understand that with in 20 minutes of that time a person with a good eye can determine if my technique is worthy of Black Belt.

But I also feel that more than technique is involved in being a black belt and that this can not be brought out of a person in 20 min. I think that the longer test do have a valid purpose. I learned more about myself during the latter stages of an exhausting test than I ever did in a class room setting. Technique can be retaught/corrected at a later time but showing a person there personal limits and pushing them beyond builds character that will stay with them a lifetime.

 

[miguksaram]

I think the OP was started to see what other methods of testing there are, and to get everyone's input in how a test is done for different schools and students...not implying that there is a right and wrong way.

Agreed. That is what I thought it was as well and it has been interesting to see the different methodology used.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'll have to dig out the article, but earlier this year, Blackbelt magazine interviewed a man who had devised an "Ultimate Blackbelt Test" which took a year. Needless to say, there were a lot of non-martial aspects to the test. It involved philosphy, spirituality, being a good citizen, volunteering, artistic areas outside of the martial arts, such as poetry and painting, and of course, an essay.

Daniel