Yep, here it comes - gun control lies front and center

[rframe]

I'm 25...

You sure know a lot about what is best for others at that ripe old age.

I can introduce you to two people who live close to me who've used concealed handguns to stop violent crime in the past year. One is a 90lb barrista who stopped an attacker at her coffee shop. The other is the owner of a sandwich shop who stopped a man who was mugging a woman at knife point outside his store. But... I guess they are just gun-toting yahoo's in your book.

 

[Sukerkin]

I sympathise with your views on this, Steve, and quite agree that there is nothing more abused than statistics. I do reckon tho that it is not the guns that need regulating but the training and habits of those that own them. I have only ever accidentally discharged a weapon once ... and that was on my 'try out' for my university rifle club team . I didn't take my finger off the unexpectedly light trigger when adjusting my prone position on the range and the CLANG!!!! of that round smacking into the target frame is a sound I've never forgotten :double blush.

 

[elder999]

I I do reckon tho that it is not the guns that need regulating but the training and habits of those that own them. .

And I soooo agree with this-far too many people purchase a firearm "for protection" and don't get proper-and widely available-training.

 

[Sukerkin]

Gents, give Robin a bit of a break on this. He's grown up under very different circumstances than yourselves and has been bombarded with the "guns are evil in and of themselves" message all his life (reinforced by the abuse of guns by drug gangs often reported in the news).

Robin, just a quick reminder that a lot of the responders in this thread are either serving or ex police officers and army/marines - so they are going to have a very negative reaction to someone, who they will perceive as an inexperienced outsider, out of the blue giving such strong opinions on a subject that means a great deal to them.

 

[RobinTKD]

You sure know a lot about what is best for others at that ripe old age.

I can introduce you to two people who live close to me who've used concealed handguns to stop violent crime in the past year. One is a 90lb barrista who stopped an attacker at her coffee shop. The other is the owner of a sandwich shop who stopped a man who was mugging a woman at knife point outside his store. But... I guess they are just gun-toting yahoo's in your book.

I'm sorry for being so young, I'll go back to my colouring books now shall I?

If the guns were never legal in the first place, they would be harder to obtain both legally and illegally, therefore, your friends would probably never have had to defend themselves from a firearm, with a firearm.

 

[elder999]

Robin, just a quick reminder that a lot of the responders in this thread are either serving or ex police officers and army/marines - so they are going to have a very negative reaction to someone, who they will perceive as an inexperienced outsider, out of the blue giving such strong opinions on a subject that means a great deal to them.

Or, like me, someone from a "gun family," who has hunted and shot almost all his life, and whose family had and carried guns for self defense because-for a variety of cultural reasons-they couldn't always depend on the system to do it for them.

I mean, my grandfather wrote articles for "Field and Stream," right up until they found out he wasn't white. :lol:

Here's one of the first threads I posted on Martial Talk:

In Monroe, North Carolina, in 1957, the Monroe chapter of the NAACP was under constant threat and harassment by the Ku Klux Klan. They were trying to exercise their constitutional rights to speak out, to assemble, to vote, to associate with one another, and the Klan were armed, and using those arms to illegally intimidate them. The Klan had set about driving through black neighborhoods and firing guns at homes.

So the Monroe chapter of the NAACP decided to exercise another of their civil liberties-the right to keep and bear arms. They received firearms training, and when the Klan came around again, they ran right into the Second Amendment. The Klan fired, and that fire was returned in a fight they had no stomach for. The terrorists failed, because one right prevailed.

Second amendment opponents and apologists, and citizens of certain European countries, offer grim statistics, and lay them at the foot of the Second Amendment. I, too, can offer those same statistics as gruesome proof of the failure of reliance on laws that do nothing more than restrict the rights of law-abiding people, and do nothing to disarm criminals or thwart criminal attack.

 

[RobinTKD]

Gents, give Robin a bit of a break on this. He's grown up under very different circumstances than yourselves and has been bombarded with the "guns are evil in and of themselves" message all his life (reinforced by the abuse of guns by drug gangs often reported in the news).

It's OK, I'm enjoying the discussion.

Robin, just a quick reminder that a lot of the responders in this thread are either serving or ex police officers and army/marines - so they are going to have a very negative reaction to someone, who they will perceive as an inexperienced outsider, out of the blue giving such strong opinions on a subject that means a great deal to them.

I can understand the military side of it, both my Dad and Brother are ex forces, my brother served 3 tours of Iraq and 2 tours of Afghanistan, my Dad fought in the Falklands. My point is essentially this. They carry guns for self defence, yet if they were never legal to begin with then there wouldn't need for that, as they would be as hard to obtain illegally as they are in the UK. Of course it won't stop them completely, but enough so that you're not worried about getting shot whenever you lave your house after dark.

 

[Sukerkin]

Here's an article from a British source that covers just how easy it is to obtain an illegal firearm in our country, thus, sadly, showing that making such-and-such a thing illegal has no affect on it's availability to those with no respect for the law in the first place:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1

 

[RobinTKD]

Or, like me, someone from a "gun family," who has hunted and shot almost all his life, and whose family had and carried guns for self defense because-for a variety of cultural reasons-they couldn't always depend on the system to do it for them.

Just in case you missed it, It's handguns/concealed guns that i'm talking about here. I have hunted and shot for sport myself, but we hunt with rifles and shoot clays with shotguns (as i'm sure you do), not the type of weapons you can just carry around unnoticed.

 

[rframe]

If the guns were never legal in the first place, they would be harder to obtain both legally and illegally, therefore, your friends would probably never have had to defend themselves from a firearm, with a firearm.

Yeah, because making things illegal has always made them so hard to obtain. I mean, there's alcohol during prohibition... oh wait, ok bad example. But, there's narcotics... oh well, nevermind that one. Uhhhm prostitu.... oh heck, nevermind... I give up.

In the second case, the man was defending another innocent woman who was being attacked by a knife. Are you planning to outlaw those? Just curious.

 

[RobinTKD]

Here's an article from a British source that covers just how easy it is to obtain an illegal firearm in our country, thus, sadly, showing that making such-and-such a thing illegal has no affect on it's availability to those with no respect for the law in the first place:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1

I've seen this before, isn't it funny though how we still haven't had a massive surge in guns and gun crime on the street?

Also those 'converted replica's' often backfire, making them as dangerous to the user as they are to the intended victim.

 

[RobinTKD]

Yeah, because making things illegal has always made them so hard to obtain. I mean, there's alcohol during prohibition... oh wait, ok bad example. But, there's narcotics... oh well, nevermind that one. Uhhhm prostitu.... oh heck, nevermind... I give up.

In the second case, the man was defending another innocent woman who was being attacked by a knife. Are you planning to outlaw those? Just curious.

How in the hell do you think almost every other country in the world copes without handguns? As Sukerkin posted above, illegal handguns aren't that hard to obtain in the UK, yet people aren't being shot everyday, people aren't suddenly calling for them to be legalised so we can all defend ourselves against them.

 

[Sukerkin]

:nods: I certainly agree on your second point in post#51 about the dangers of such converted pistols, Robin.

As to your first, I confess that I have not looked for any statistics in the past couple of years and the visible news focus switched to the up-tick in knife crime instead. As the media is ever wont to do, it reports things in waves, making us think that something is an unstoppable torrent and rousing public opinion ... then they move on to something else. So I am perhaps a bit out of date with my facts.

But I do have to say guns have always been available here. Being a biker (of the 'rocker' sort rather than the 'Outlaw' kind), in my younger days I used to hang around in places where there were 'unsavoury' types and I saw with my own eyes the prevalence of firearms and their use in macho posturing or 'compliance assurance'.

So I ponder whether the problem is really worse in terms of the guns that are around or whether it is the culture of their use that has changed?

 

[elder999]

Just in case you missed it, It's handguns/concealed guns that i'm talking about here. I have hunted and shot for sport myself, but we hunt with rifles and shoot clays with shotguns (as i'm sure you do), not the type of weapons you can just carry around unnoticed.

I've shot deer, rabbits, squirrels and coyote with a handgun.

I wouldn't dream of using anything else for feral hog, except perhaps a knife or bow-just a little more sporting that way....:lol:

My wife and I also carry pistols in the field against bears and mountain lions-not that I'd ever enjoy killing a bear,nor am i likely to even see the mountain lion that decides I look tasty. Being able to carry concealed also makes us less off-putting to people we might encounter on the trail....

 

[RobinTKD]

I've shot deer, rabbits, squirrels and coyote with a handgun.

I wouldn't dream of using anything else for feral hog, except perhaps a knife or bow-just a little more sporting that way....:lol:

My wife and I also carry pistols in the field against bears and mountain lions-not that I'd ever enjoy killing a bear,nor am i likely to even see the mountain lion that decides I look tasty. Being able to carry concealed also makes us less off-putting to people we might encounter on the trail....

I hunt Rabbits with a catapult

I'll admit that's an area that I hadn't considered. But then I'm not really sure that derailing the topic into large predator behaviour is really the way to go.

 

[RobinTKD]

:nods: I certainly agree on your second point in post#51 about the dangers of such converted pistols, Robin.

As to your first, I confess that I have not looked for any statistics in the past couple of years and the visible news focus switched to the up-tick in knife crime instead. As the media is ever wont to do, it reports things in waves, making us think that something is an unstoppable torrent and rousing public opinion ... then they move on to something else. So I am perhaps a bit out of date with my facts.

But I do have to say guns have always been available here. Being a biker (of the 'rocker' sort rather than the 'Outlaw' kind), in my younger days I used to hang around in places where there were 'unsavoury' types and I saw with my own eyes the prevalence of firearms and their use in macho posturing or 'compliance assurance'.

So I ponder whether the problem is really worse in terms of the guns that are around or whether it is the culture of their use that has changed?

You're definitely right about the media, again, if we believed everything we heard, we'd expect people to be knifed left right and centre. I'm also aware of the huge gun crime that existed in the late 80's early 90's, especially centred around Manchester and South London, but all praise to the law enforcement, they managed to curb it, get rid of a lot of the guns, and reduce the amount of firearm related crime.

I've no doubt that there are more Illegal firearms in the UK right now than there has been in at least 20 years, but it doesn't seem to equate to more shootings.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm sorry for being so young, I'll go back to my colouring books now shall I?

I'm about to settle down with my Friday evening cartoons, so why not? I believe I have a recorded episode of "Young Justice" and "Transformers" to watch.

If the guns were never legal in the first place, they would be harder to obtain both legally and illegally, therefore, your friends would probably never have had to defend themselves from a firearm, with a firearm.

Yes, very true. And if my aunt had testicles, she'd be my uncle.

The fact is, we in the USA have had a culture of private gun ownership since dot. There is literally no way to collect up all the guns. That leaves the option of having armed criminals and armed citizens, or armed criminals and disarmed citizens. There is no scenario under which both would be disarmed. So the only question is whether or not the victims will be permitted to defend themselves.

 

[RobinTKD]

Yes, very true. And if my aunt had testicles, she'd be my uncle.

The fact is, we in the USA have had a culture of private gun ownership since dot. There is literally no way to collect up all the guns. That leaves the option of having armed criminals and armed citizens, or armed criminals and disarmed citizens. There is no scenario under which both would be disarmed. So the only question is whether or not the victims will be permitted to defend themselves.

We've come to the inevitable point where we have started arguing the same point. I never offered a solution, only to say that it was ridiculous to find yourself (the generic 'yourself' there, not you personally Bill) in such a situation.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

We've come to the inevitable point where we have started arguing the same point. I never offered a solution, only to say that it was ridiculous to find yourself (the generic 'yourself' there, not you personally Bill) in such a situation.

I've had that discussion. One of my in-laws was quite angry one night and shouting about why we were in Iraq. It was all bogus, hoked up, faked evidence and so on.

My response was that I do not know what led to it, but we're there now. What does he propose we do?

"That's not my department," he shouted. Ah, a problem that makes him angry but he has no idea what should be done about it. Well, let's all have a good shout then, shall we?

I will put pencils up my nose and go 'wibble' but it won't fix anything.

 

[elder999]

I hunt Rabbits with a catapult

I'll admit that's an area that I hadn't considered. But then I'm not really sure that derailing the topic into large predator behaviour is really the way to go.

I regularly get visits from bears and mountain lions-bears on my front porch-really!