Ya Gots It Backward

[kenpo tiger]

Kaith said:

"What if Mexico, Cuba and Canada all allowed themselves to be a conduit for fanatics to flow into the country further destabilizing it?

What if white supremacists took the opportunity to declare themselves independent?"

And this isn't happening?

[Snide remarks about your hair from others notwithstanding: Canada has ballet?

Robertson is a History prof? Not English Lit? *Gee whiz* I'm so confused...:xtrmshock :erg: ]

 

[Flatlander]

"What if Mexico, Cuba and Canada all allowed themselves to be a conduit for fanatics to flow into the country further destabilizing it?" ......<snip>......
And this isn't happening?

Canada is not "allowing" itself to be a conduit for fanatics flowing into the country. "Allowing" implies specific intent to support the fanatical influx, and this is not the case. Our government here is working on solutions to tightened border security, however, we tend to be significantly less willing to restrict the freedoms of Canadians granted by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms than the US executive to overlook its Constitution. That doesn't equate to passive assistance of terrorism.

 

[michaeledward]

Canada is not "allowing" itself to be a conduit for fanatics flowing into the country. "Allowing" implies specific intent to support the fanatical influx, and this is not the case. Our government here is working on solutions to tightened border security, however, we tend to be significantly less willing to restrict the freedoms of Canadians granted by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms than the US executive to overlook its Constitution. That doesn't equate to passive assistance of terrorism.

artyon:


And I appreciate it.

Michael

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The writer of the article Robert used is a history prof. in Mich.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. I stipulated as to your facts about Iraq, on this particular thread, Mr. Rustaz, so I'm not sure what the kvetch is in this case. It appears to be a problem with anybody else generating a hypothetical to illustrate a point.

2. No, being a college professor does not make you jesus, or anything remotely resembling a god. Gee.

3. Here are Professor Cole's credentials, which he posts on his website--something that good academics routinely do, and something that a lot of martial artists and conservative whack jobs might learn from.

Professor Juan R. I. Cole
Professor of History
1029 Tisch Hall
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1003
Voice: (734) 764-6305, 763-1599
FAX (734) 747-4811
Internet:

Juan R. I. Cole is Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History at the History Department of the University of Michigan. A bibliography of his writings may be found here. He has written extensively about modern Islamic movements in Egypt, the Persian Gulf, and South Asia. He has given numerous media and press interviews on the War on Terrorism since September 11, 2001, as well as concerning the Iraq War in 2003. His current research focuses on two contemporary phenomena: 1) Shiite Islam in Iraq and Iran and 2) the "jihadi" or "sacred-war" strain of Muslim radicalism, including al-Qaeda and the Taliban among other groups. Cole commands Arabic, Persian and Urdu and reads some Turkish, knows both Middle Eastern and South Asian Islam, and lived in a number of places in the Muslim world for extended periods of time. His most recent book is "Sacred Space and Holy War" (IB Tauris 2002). This volume collects some of his work on the history of the Shiite branch of Islam in modern Iraq, "Iran and the Gulf." He treated Shi`ism in his co-edited book, "Shi`ism and Social Protest" (Yale, 1986), of his first monograph, Roots of "North Indian Shi`ism in Iran and Iraq" (California, 1989). His interest in Iranian religion is further evident in his work on Baha'i studies, which eventuated in his 1998 book, "Modernity and the Millennium: The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith in the Nineteenth Century Middle East" (Columbia University Press). He has also written a good deal about modern Egypt, including a book, "Colonialism and Revolution in the Middle East: Social and Cultural Origins of Egypt's `Urabi Movement" (Princeton, 1993). His concern with comparative history and Islamics is evident in his edited "Comparing Muslim Societies" (Michigan, 1992).

Professional History

* 1975 B.A. History and Literature of Religions, Northwestern University
* 1978 M.A. Arabic Studies/History, American University in Cairo
* 1984 Ph.D. Islamic Studies, University of California Los Angeles
* 1984-1990 Assistant Professor of History, University of Michigan
* 1990-1995 Associate Professor of History, University of Michigan
* 1992-1995 Director, Center for Middle Eastern and North African Studies, University of Michigan
* 1995- Professor of History, University of Michigan


Scholastic Awards and Grants ; Hudson Research Professorship, Winter, 2003 ; Award for Research in Turkey, May, 1999, International Institute, U-M ; Research Excellence Award, College of LSA, U-M, August, 1997 ; OVPR and LSA Faculty Assistance Fund Grants, June, 1995 ; LSA Faculty Assistance Fund Grant, March 1994 ; Rackham Research Partnership, 1992-93 ; National Endowment for the Humanities, Jan.-June, 1991 ; Office of the Vice-President for Research, U-M (Pakistan), Summer 1990 ; Horace H. Rackham Faculty Grant, Egypt, Summer 1988 ; SSRC/ACLS Post-Doctoral Award, England, Summer 1986 ; Fulbright-Hays Islamic Civilization Postdoctoral Award, Egypt, 1985-86 ; SSRC/ACLS Doctoral Fellowship, Pakistan, India, UK, 1981-83 ; Fulbright-Hays Doctoral Fellowship, India, 1982


At the University of Michigan, I teach courses on the modern history of the Middle East and on South Asia. I regularly teach a survey, History 443 Modern Middle East History. I also offer with fair regularity an upper-level class, History 542 Modern Iran and the Gulf States. Among my favorite courses, which I do not get to teach as often, is History 456 Mughal India. For graduate students I offer History 664 Studies on the Modern Middle East, History 749 Seminar on the Modern Middle East, and History 793 The Study of the Near East, and have co-taught History 615 Comparative World History. In fall, 1998, I offered for the first time History 334, "War and Society in the Modern Middle East."

For those of you who can't read the code, this is an extremely reputable senior professor at a first-rate university, with a VERY strong publication history and an excellent educational background. He has spent his professional life learning, writing, and teaching about the Mid-East and Islam.

But hey--what do them pointy-head collitch boys know, anyway?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Robert,
I am disinclined to acquiesce with your conclusions as to my statements, I do however rejoice in your presentation of your writers credentials. I now await the data upon which he based his conclusions.

I am however in agreement with you on the desire that more martial artists followed similar policy in detailing their own resumes. I myself have. But that has little to do with this topic.

You have successfully established his credibility in commenting on historical events in the Middle East. I can not find a hole in his credentials in that area. What is missing here however is his credibility in commenting -as he did-. I do not agree that 1 fanatic in Iraq = 100 here.

I answered originally because the conclusion hypothesized in the writings are flawed. They are flawed based in part on the wrong numbers, as well as the wrong scope. Iraq is about the size of California. There is an issue of scale there, hence my initial response. Upon suspending the required amount of 'belief', I answered the question honestly.

I do however stand by my statement that I believe his article to be extremist, sensationalist, and flat out wrong.

We are deadlocked in disagreement at this point. We can tangent, sidebar and snipe all you wish, however it does not change the fact that you have not presented any evidence to cause me to reconsider my position. Therefore I can conclude that you can not do so, and that this is yet another exercise in futility. I see no more need to debate this. The answer is simple: If the US was in a comparable state as Iraq, it would be an unarguable disaster.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

September 27, 2004: There are some 400,000 organized and armed security personnel policing Iraq, with some 238,000 of them Iraqi, and the rest foreign (mainly American.) There are also several hundred thousand unorganized Iraqis (local militias) who provide security, especially in the Kurdish north and Shia Arab south. With a few exceptions (like the Shia al Sadr gunmen and many Sunni Arab groups), these gunmen keep pro-Saddam and criminal gangs from causing trouble. Most of the Iraqi security forces are deployed in these areas, where there is no resistance to the central government. But the Sunni Arab areas, where Saddam had nearly all of his support, and was the source of his enforcers, are still fighting to regain power.

http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=Iraq

There is more there. Short version, lt getting rougher there. Many believe this is the 'big push'. Me, I'm honestly not certain what the state is.

 

[Flatlander]

We are deadlocked in disagreement at this point. We can tangent, sidebar and snipe all you wish,

Nope. No sniping.

The answer is simple: If the US was in a comparable state as Iraq, it would be an unarguable disaster.

Can't argue with that. The word unfathomable comes to mind.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Again, Mr. Rustaz, IT'S A HYPOTHETICAL. It can't be "wrong," or "sensationalist," in the fashion you clearly intend.

Did you have anything to contribute to the thread? Other than attacking me?

I say again: that is the c.v. of a senior professor who knows an extraordinary amount about Iraq and the region and Islam. As much as you try and dismiss that, you're kinda stuck.

 

[michaeledward]

I dont have much to add, except that professor Cole was on NPR's All Things Considered this evening (along with Fareed Zakaria).

It seems every question asked by the host was answered by Mr. Cole as "Well, that's not exactly the correct question."

While he didn't come right out and say 'Iraq is an absolute disaster' ... he seemed to be dancing around that idea.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I answered your question. What part of "The answer is simple: If the US was in a comparable state as Iraq, it would be an unarguable disaster." are you having trouble understanding?

It is very nice that he knows Iraq, etc.
What does he know about this country, it's factions, etc?
The US is 10+x bigger than Iraq.
If the US was in a comparable mess, it is logical to assume it would be at least 10X the bigger mess.

I didn't try to dismiss his credentials.
I asked you to present them.
It's not my job to do so, however I was quite aware of them having Googled his name at the beginning of this exercise in futility.

Contributions to this thread? Are you honestly that dense Robert? Quite obviously you are. I've hit this from 'logical', 'theoretical', 'hypethetical' and 'conceptual'
What -ELSE- do you want?

"Oh no! That would be real bad. Bush is a bads man, we must getz him now!"


As to the "attack" part. Have I? Have I hit you any harder than you've hit me?
Anyone? Have I crossed that line?

In any event, I am debating with YOU, not him. Try to focus on a topic for a change, I grow tired of your constantly redirecting and misrepresenting.

 

[Flatlander]

=============
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Moderator-
=============

 

[rmcrobertson]

While it is disingenuous to demand the presentation of information that one already has, I believe it best if I simply let the Moderator's comment and request stand, Mr. Rustaz.

I have no trouble believing that an academic said, "Well, that's not exactly the right question," about forty-eleven times. It's what we--well some of us, anyway--do. Kind of related to philosophy, where everything hinges on asking the right question...though of course the great example comes in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Robert,
What
Response
Do
You
Want
From
Me
In
This
Thread?

 

[Tgace]

Im glad to see Im not the only one who gets torqued up by this guy.......

In through the nose Bob...out through the mouth. Center, Relax, Think Happy Thoughts.

 

[Seig]

ADMIN WARNING

This Thread is exactly one insult away from being locked and seeing both Bob and Robert suspended.
Seig
MT OPS ADMIN

 

[kenpo tiger]

Aw guys. You can play nice. It'd be a shame to have the thread locked because of dueling egos when you're both great sources of information.

 

[Bester]

I've read several comments lately to the effect that Iraq is no biggie, because there're at least as many deaths and injuries daily in America.

Well, claptrap. And here's why--from www.juancole.com [i]claptrap remov...ike deeper research into "Atlantian Ninjas" .

 

[PeachMonkey]

I've posted a number of facts about the degeneration of the Iraq situation here and in the "Reconstruction" thread, but I think our participants are too focused on the insults to absorb them.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

PM, I read em, and appreciate em. Keep on posting them.

- Bob