Xing Yi Quan: Five element - Han Yanwu

[Xue Sheng]

That's what I thought but I've seen a few videos and such that implied it was a martial art or had forms/techniques. I'm not sure if this relates to how other styles also do a Elemental system. Like 5 Element Tai Chi, Wing Chun etc.

Taijiquan 5 elements is paired with the 13 postures and then becomes martial.

 

[CMyers0323]

Taijiquan 5 elements is paired with the 13 postures and then becomes martial.

I see that's cool. I just started learning a 5 element Tai Chi form. In what I think is a Hung Gar 5 element form they go over well the Elemental strikes but it's fairly different than the Xing Yi 5 element strikes.

This guy goes over it a bit quicker

Does Tai Chi's Elemental strikes look different then?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Whats your thoughts on Wu Xing? I didn't know there was a martial arts called that. I only knew Xing Yi as the Elemental style and Wu Xing theory. I guess there's a whole style with forms and such? But I personally can't find any books on it.

There is no "Wu Xing" style, like we discussed in the Leopard thread, but it's Taoist theory baked into a lot of Chinese history. Practically everything in China is categorized into an element at some point.

There are fist sets and sequences in certain styles that do contain "Five Elements" in some versions of their names, like the Five Animal Five Element Fist, but for simplicity these are often abbreviated into the number of major themes, e.g. Sup Ying Kuen (Ten Pattern Fist), 5 of the ten are taken from the Wu Xing. And that's just one major lineage, the other major lineage only calls it the Five Animal or Five Pattern Fist (Ng Ying Kuen).

Just using Wu Xing fire as on example, it represents heat, the early-mid (but not late) summer, the reddish colors, anger and hatred, and certain organs like the heart.

If you use sharp objects with points in your home decor, this is considered fire element in Feng Shui.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I see that's cool. I just started learning a 5 element Tai Chi form. In what I think is a Hung Gar 5 element form they go over well the Elemental strikes but it's fairly different than the Xing Yi 5 element strikes.

This guy goes over it a bit quicker

Does Tai Chi's Elemental strikes look different then?

This is because Xing Yi is a Neijia (internal) Wudang school, whereas Hung Ga is an external/internal hybrid system.

In your videos, the first one is an abbreviated traditional Lam family Sup Ying Kuen (their version of the one I posted of Matt Blazon Yee doing Dang Fong school's Five Animal/Ng Ying). Done very, very slowly, which is just for demo (this is normally done very fast and powerful, because it's an advanced set).

The second video is not a traditional Hung Ga form, the instructor is just showcasing certain Element fists, although I have some issues with it I'm not going to go into on this thread (their school lineage is a bit odd and it appears they may not have Sanda in it).

Suffice to say the first video is a better illustration (and Matt's is better than both and shows better fighting application, because he is). And generally you're going to notice that Hung Ga's element strikes tend to be longer range (water and earth for example, are max range strikes). Xing Yi and Tai Chi Chuan tend to keep closer to the body core.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When your opponent punches you with beng quan (wood), do you have options? Can you...?

- dodge (fire).
- hard block (metal).
- soft block (earth).
- arm wrap (water).
- kick back (wood).

Why or why not?

Fighting strategy has nothing to do with style. A punch is a punch. Xing Yi Beng Quan is no different from any other punch.

 

[marvin8]

When your opponent punches you with beng quan (wood), do you have options? Can you...?

- dodge (fire).
- hard block (metal).
- soft block (earth).
- arm wrap (water).
- kick back (wood).

Why or why not?

Fighting strategy has nothing to do with style. A punch is a punch. Xing Yi Beng Quan is no different from any other punch.

Per the posted Yang Hai video and diagram, Beng Quan is the wood element in Xing Yi. If you have the option to use any element against it (as you say), then what combat value does XY 5 elements theory have in your opinion?

Five Elements

1. Beng - Wood (Crushing)
2. Pao - Fire (Exploding)
3. Heng - Earth (Crossing)
4. Pi - Metal (Splitting)
5. Zuan - Water (Drilling)

 

[CMyers0323]

This is because Xing Yi is a Neijia (internal) Wudang school, whereas Hung Ga is an external/internal hybrid system.

In your videos, the first one is an abbreviated traditional Lam family Sup Ying Kuen (their version of the one I posted of Matt Blazon Yee doing Dang Fong school's Five Animal/Ng Ying). Done very, very slowly, which is just for demo (this is normally done very fast and powerful, because it's an advanced set).

The second video is not a traditional Hung Ga form, the instructor is just showcasing certain Element fists, although I have some issues with it I'm not going to go into on this thread (their school lineage is a bit odd and it appears they may not have Sanda in it).

Suffice to say the first video is a better illustration (and Matt's is better than both and shows better fighting application, because he is). And generally you're going to notice that Hung Ga's element strikes tend to be longer range (water and earth for example, are max range strikes). Xing Yi and Tai Chi Chuan tend to keep closer to the body core.

Ahh I see I think what confused me is when we spoke about "Wu Xing Metal techniques" that's why I thought it was a martial art as well as the theory.

That makes sense though. I've heard alot of it. Mostly outside of my martial arts just as health and such.

Most of my experience comes from the Xing Yi sets. Seeing the one you mentioned from the 10 pattern fist is cool since it's to me a new form of the 5 fists.

That's cool yeah that's definitely what I was taught as well for fire. Well generally summer is the season I was taught but Earth was late summer.

That's cool makes sense since it's probably relating to sharp knifes or something similar. I definitely need to learn more about Feng Shui though.



That makes alot more sense while I'm sure Elemental techniques can vary I would assume they would be recognizable as a group. So when seeing the Hung Gar version I thought it was pretty cool. That also goes for when you mentioned Wood is Squeezing. Never heard that before I wouldn't even be able to guess what the others are then haha.

Yeah I found those two when searching for a clear copy of the post you mentioned. While they aren't as good as the one you've mentioned it was nice to see it in action and some applications. I agree though the video you posted is the best. I can see how that could be very tiring doing it full speed but as you said it's advanced so it can.

 

[CMyers0323]

Fighting strategy has nothing to do with style. A punch is a punch. Xing Yi Beng Quan is no different from any other punch.

I do agree but at the same time i was always under the impression they would be different. Mainly since whenever they are explained usually it's alot of body mechanics and such.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I do agree but at the same time i was always under the impression they would be different. Mainly since whenever they are explained usually it's alot of body mechanics and such.

A punch is a punch, like a car is a car.... there are different types under that general heading
Bengquan is a punch, and so is a rightcross, a jab and an uppercut, but they are not all the same beyond the general heading of punch

 

[CMyers0323]

A punch is a punch, like a car is a car.... there are different types under that general heading
Bengquan is a punch, and so is a rightcross, a jab and an uppercut, but they are not all the same beyond the general heading of punch

Oh yeah I totally agree there. When I got deeper into the 5 element punches I was enjoying the differences they had. Same with the fa Jing.

 

[marvin8]

A punch is a punch, like a car is a car.... there are different types under that general heading
Bengquan is a punch, and so is a rightcross, a jab and an uppercut, but they are not all the same beyond the general heading of punch

Pi Quan (Metal) conquers Beng Quan (Wood)
Beng Quan (Wood) defeats Heng Quan (Earth)
Heng Quan (Earth) subjugates Zuan Quan (Water)
Zuan Quan (Water) overmasters Pao Quan (Fire)
Pao Quan (Fire) overcomes Pi Quan (Metal)

Excerpt from “Cracking the ‘xingyi code’:”

"Pi is able to conquer Beng and Beng is able to defeat Heng. Heng is able to subjugate Zuan and Zuan is able to overmaster Pao. Pao can overcome Pi. All of these belong to the theory of Yi (Change). Looking for the real meaning is nowhere else but within the Five Phases" - Ancient xingyiquan Song of Mutual Conquest

 

[Xue Sheng]

Pi Quan (Metal) conquers Beng Quan (Wood)
Beng Quan (Wood) defeats Heng Quan (Earth)
Heng Quan (Earth) subjugates Zuan Quan (Water)
Zuan Quan (Water) overmasters Pao Quan (Fire)
Pao Quan (Fire) overcomes Pi Quan (Metal)

Excerpt from “Cracking the ‘xingyi code’:”

I use to do a stationary, 2 person, 5 element form, based on the destructive cycle. I was about to learn the moving version when my teacher, without my permission, up and move 1000 miles south.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Pi Quan (Metal) conquers Beng Quan (Wood)

In this video, B uses "downward parry" to deflect (soft block) A's Beng Quan. B can then punches back with Beng Quan too.

So Beng Quan can also conquers Beng Quan.

 

[Xue Sheng]

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Why this is correct?

Water – Left
Fire – Right

Why this is not correct?

Water – Right
Fire – Left

Blood flow

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I see that's cool. I just started learning a 5 element Tai Chi form. In what I think is a Hung Gar 5 element form they go over well the Elemental strikes but it's fairly different than the Xing Yi 5 element strikes.

This guy goes over it a bit quicker

Does Tai Chi's Elemental strikes look different then?

I see that's cool. I just started learning a 5 element Tai Chi form. In what I think is a Hung Gar 5 element form they go over well the Elemental strikes but it's fairly different than the Xing Yi 5 element strikes.

This guy goes over it a bit quicker

Does Tai Chi's Elemental strikes look different then?

The guy in the second video may know names, theories, and have a snazzy outfit but… Where is the foot? Where is the root? Where is the physical reality? Kung fu means hard work, not parody.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is because Xing Yi is a Neijia (internal) Wudang school, whereas Hung Ga is an external/internal hybrid system.

In your videos, the first one is an abbreviated traditional Lam family Sup Ying Kuen (their version of the one I posted of Matt Blazon Yee doing Dang Fong school's Five Animal/Ng Ying). Done very, very slowly, which is just for demo (this is normally done very fast and powerful, because it's an advanced set).

The second video is not a traditional Hung Ga form, the instructor is just showcasing certain Element fists, although I have some issues with it I'm not going to go into on this thread (their school lineage is a bit odd and it appears they may not have Sanda in it).

Suffice to say the first video is a better illustration (and Matt's is better than both and shows better fighting application, because he is). And generally you're going to notice that Hung Ga's element strikes tend to be longer range (water and earth for example, are max range strikes). Xing Yi and Tai Chi Chuan tend to keep closer to the body core.

Range is part of the reason we have Mok Gar and Hung Gar elements in our system.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In this video, B uses "downward parry" to deflect (soft block) A's Beng Quan. B can then punches back with Beng Quan too.

So Beng Quan can also conquers Beng Quan.

Much better.

 

[marvin8]

In this video, B uses "downward parry" to deflect (soft block) A's Beng Quan. B can then punches back with Beng Quan too.

So Beng Quan can also conquers Beng Quan.

If you say, "Beng (Wood) can conquer Beng (Wood) and you have options," then how useful is the Xing Yi 5 element theory?

In fighting, you try to apply the following:

1. Metal against wood.
2. Wood against earth.
3. Earth against water.
4. Water against fire.
5. Fire against metal.

When your opponent punches you with beng quan (wood), do you have options? Can you...?

- dodge (fire).
- hard block (metal).
- soft block (earth).
- arm wrap (water).
- kick back (wood).

Why or why not?

 

[Oily Dragon]

If you say, "Beng (Wood) can conquer Beng (Wood) and you have options," then how useful is the Xing Yi 5 element theory?

It might help to understand the Wu Xing, like wheel.

There is no top, or first element. From a Chinese kung fu perspective, all elements equal none.

You'll find a lot of images online of various wheels, but none of them, visually, matter. Most have fire or wood at the top. Think about why that is.