Wtf

msmitht said:
The tul are the original hyung (chong gi, dan gun, do san, won yo, yul gook, etc) created for itf tkd. The palgwe, I believe, were created for the wtf before the taeguek poomsae. Not too sure about the history of palgwe except that in the 80's they were removed from the required curriculum for advancement in kukkiwon tkd.Many old school gm's kept teaching them and passed the tradition on which is why you may still see them at tourneys. They are not allowed in competition at official usat/wtf sanctioned events(state championship, national qualifiers, nationals and international events).
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Master Miles has written a very good history of this, which he once posted on MT.
 
Cyriacus said:
Logical Contradiction in Reasoning.
And im full well aware thats being either Picky or Observant, depending on your Viewpoint :)

Just My Contribution, to Extending this Derailment :P
​
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I believe when he said they are not part of KKW anymore he was referring to the forms not the school. The Palgwe forms are no longer part of KKW standards.
 
Dirty Dog said:
Nobody is asking him to eat (learn/practice) the brussel sprouts (forms).

I'm also willing to bet that you would still eat in a restaurant that serves brussel sprouts. Refusing to eat (compete with) the brussel sprouts (forms) is entirely reasonable. Refusing to go to a restaurant (tournament) simply because they allow brussel sprouts (Palgwe forms) is, I think, close minded.
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Why? What if I don't like the restaurant? Does it still make me closed minded? I really do not like going to MAKA tournaments, which are similar to what we do. However, all the ones that I have been to have been poorly ran, mismanaged, and very biased to MAKA members, even though they claim to be open to all styles and orgs. So if I see a tournament whose top sanctioning is MAKA. I will not go, because I know their rules are not fair, and the way they run is bad. I have had a enough experience to learn to avoid it. This doesn't make me closed minded. Just practical on where I will spend my time and money.
 
Dirty Dog said:
And, as I said, there is life (and Tae Kwon Do) outside the narrow scope of the Kukkiwon. And knowledge is NEVER obsolete.
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And as we have already hashed a gazillion times...we know. However, that is not the issue here. The issue is that Palgwes are no longer utilized by the KKW standards and as such obsolete. You can learn how to fix a Model T ford and even drive around in it. Sure looks cool, and having that knowledge is nice, but you will not be a certified mechanic if that is the standard you are trying to base your car knowledge on.

It's a Moo Duk Kwan logo. I personally practice the Kicho, Palgwe, Taegeuk, Yudanja and Chang Hon forms. I'd certainly not be opposed to learning others.
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Your not opposed, but you do not know them. Isn't this denying the roots of your art? Should you not go out of your way to learn those forms since they are root forms to your art? After all you are claiming that since he does not believe in doing Palgwe forms, he is denying TKD's Japanese roots.

So since they're not as common they're not worth learning? I don't think you'll ever convince me of that.
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Never said they are not worth learning. Just said they are obsolete. Are they practical to learn, my personal opinion, no. They will not help me advance in the KKW standards to achieve my next ranking. Some people will argue that learning any poomsae is a waste because it has no "real life" combative training. However, enjoy learning them...eventually I will relearn Palgwe forms..why...because I enjoy doing forms forms. Just like I enjoy learning about Korean history which really has no relevance in my life outside of my connection with my wife and Korean MA.
 
miguksaram said:
I believe when he said they are not part of KKW anymore he was referring to the forms not the school. The Palgwe forms are no longer part of KKW standards.
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Ill say it again.

I Know.

I was saying, that he Phrased it Poorly. And should take into Account how it would Read, without knowing what he Meant to say.
 
Cyriacus said:
Ill say it again.

I Know.

I was saying, that he Phrased it Poorly. And should take into Account how it would Read, without knowing what he Meant to say.
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Sorry, I replied to your quote prior to reading the history and seeing that all of this was cleared up. :)
 
miguksaram said:
Your not opposed, but you do not know them. Isn't this denying the roots of your art? Should you not go out of your way to learn those forms since they are root forms to your art? After all you are claiming that since he does not believe in doing Palgwe forms, he is denying TKD's Japanese roots.
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So you don't see a difference between "I've not had the opportunity to learn them yet" and "Bah! I'd never bother with that!"


miguksaram said:
Never said they are not worth learning. Just said they are obsolete. Are they practical to learn, my personal opinion, no. They will not help me advance in the KKW standards to achieve my next ranking. Some people will argue that learning any poomsae is a waste because it has no "real life" combative training. However, enjoy learning them...eventually I will relearn Palgwe forms..why...because I enjoy doing forms forms. Just like I enjoy learning about Korean history which really has no relevance in my life outside of my connection with my wife and Korean MA.
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Well, if your interest is focused on merit badges, that's an entirely different issue. I learn because it's fun and interesting. Whether or not it's directly related to rankings is irrelevent.
 
Dirty Dog said:
So you don't see a difference between "I've not had the opportunity to learn them yet" and "Bah! I'd never bother with that!"


Well, if your interest is focused on merit badges, that's an entirely different issue. I learn because it's fun and interesting. Whether or not it's directly related to rankings is irrelevent.
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I actually know them, i just do not teach them as they are no longer required. I personally find the pyong-an and the japanese Heinan kata set better for training.
 
Dirty Dog said:
The Palgwe forms were developed by the Kukkiwon and will always be a part of Kukki Tae Kwon do, even if not a required part.
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Actually the Palgwae poomsae were developed by the KTA in 1967, before the Kukkiwon was built in 1972. Also, the Palgwae poomsae are no longer a part of Kukki Taekwondo, just like the pyongahn hyung are no longer part of Kukki Taekwondo. You can still practice those forms and even teach them in your dojang if you wish to supplement your students' knowledge, but that doesn't mean that they are a part of Kukki Taekwondo, which I believe is the point that Master Smith is trying to make. The Kukkiwon decides what is and isn't part of Kukki Taekwondo, not individual practitioners with their own opinions.
 
puunui said:
Actually the Palgwae poomsae were developed by the KTA in 1967, before the Kukkiwon was built in 1972. Also, the Palgwae poomsae are no longer a part of Kukki Taekwondo, just like the pyongahn hyung are no longer part of Kukki Taekwondo. You can still practice those forms and even teach them in your dojang if you wish to supplement your students' knowledge, but that doesn't mean that they are a part of Kukki Taekwondo, which I believe is the point that Master Smith is trying to make. The Kukkiwon decides what is and isn't part of Kukki Taekwondo, not individual practitioners with their own opinions.
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Thank you. I forgot that it was the KTA that developed them. You said it much better than I did.
 
naomisarah said:
MT should make a forum for those trying to just get the last word in.Oh wait, we have one. LPT. :-P jk
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Well, if at any point the actual Discussion stopped, then such a Forum would be useful. I assume however, that the Conversation has now no need to Proceed :)
 
Dirty Dog said:
So you don't see a difference between "I've not had the opportunity to learn them yet" and "Bah! I'd never bother with that!"
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But he has learned them before. Opportunity? With today's information highway there are always opportunity.

Well, if your interest is focused on merit badges, that's an entirely different issue. I learn because it's fun and interesting. Whether or not it's directly related to rankings is irrelevent.
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Merit badges? Since when does focusing on material that is relevant for me to progress a merit badge? Plus, did I not just state that I would like to relearn them because I enjoy doing forms?
 
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