WTF - Kukkiwon Certificates

[puunui]

I learned Poomse Korryo through a DVD, showed him, and received my Cho Dan.

Kukkiwon uses the term il dan, not chodan for 1st Dan. But if you are suing him for your 1st Dan, why does your profile state samdan (3rd Dan) as your rank?

Personally, I would never sue any of my instructors, no matter what I thought they did to me.

 

[d1jinx]

Update...
I have traced, through various sources, his TKD involvement.
4th Dan from Korean Special Forces...back in the 70's.
His Certification past then is sketchy, vague, and.... lies.

I'd like to fill you all in on the "whys" ...

I began studying with him 3 years ago. I have much training in several MA's but wanted to learn some traditional TKD.

He taught me and tested me to 1st geup and then ...kinda stopped teaching me.

I learned Poomse Korryo through a DVD, showed him, and received my Cho Dan.

....this is really a long story, but I'll be brief.

I signed a contract to learn WTF TKD and find that he's not even accredited to teach WTF TKD,I've paid him for Kukkiwon certificates and never received them, been used to teach a very unruly class of "tiny Tigers", still not learning anything else...

Sorry...I am ranting and need to stop.

Anyway...I am now suing him for every dime I have ever paid him.

I see you're in texas. where? a few here from texas. chances are 1 of us might know who you speak of. name, or If the school has a link plop it in. or PM it. very similiar thing happened to me when i first moved to texas... even though i was already a BB, the rest of the story is the same. never know... might be the same guy.

 

[troubleenuf]

Why not? An instructor is just like any other business man. If they do not produce what they promise to produce then they are libel and open to a lawsuit just like any other businessman. They should be held accountable. If more were held accountable you would see less abuse. I have encouraged people in my area to sue the instructor who is either "holding" the certificate they earned and paid for or have failed to apply for it. And they win hands down. Why? Because its AGAINST THE LAW! It dosnt matter if you call yourself a "master" or you put yourself up on a pedestal. If you are doing something illegal you should be held accountable by the law regardless of who you think you are or who others think they are.

Kukkiwon uses the term il dan, not chodan for 1st Dan. But if you are suing him for your 1st Dan, why does your profile state samdan (3rd Dan) as your rank?

Personally, I would never sue any of my instructors, no matter what I thought they did to me.

 

[puunui]

Why not? An instructor is just like any other business man.

Why not? Mainly because I do not see myself as a customer and my instructors as a business providing a service. We have a different basis for our relationship. I will say that some of my instructors do have "customers", and they are treated differently than the way I am treated. If you see your instructor as a businessman and yourself as a customer, then don't be surprised if your instructor acts like a businessman and you are treated like a customer.

 

[troubleenuf]

Or in other words you have not been taken advantage of by an instructor... which is good but should leave you to lay judgement on those who have.

Why not? Mainly because I do not see myself as a customer and my instructors as a business providing a service. We have a different basis for our relationship. I will say that some of my instructors do have "customers", and they are treated differently than the way I am treated. If you see your instructor as a businessman and yourself as a customer, then don't be surprised if your instructor acts like a businessman and you are treated like a customer.

 

[miguksaram]

Or in other words you have not been taken advantage of by an instructor... which is good but should leave you to lay judgement on those who have.

What judgment? He said personally he would not sue his instructors. He did not say if you sue your instructor you are an awful person.

 

[puunui]

Or in other words you have not been taken advantage of by an instructor...

In other words, I choose my instructors with care and if something goes wrong, I don't blame other people for my situation. In my opinion, the choice of instructor is one of the most important decisions that you make on the martial arts journey.

which is good but should leave you to lay judgement on those who have.

I didn't lay judgment.

 

[Archtkd]

Why not? Mainly because I do not see myself as a customer and my instructors as a business providing a service. We have a different basis for our relationship. I will say that some of my instructors do have "customers", and they are treated differently than the way I am treated. If you see your instructor as a businessman and yourself as a customer, then don't be surprised if your instructor acts like a businessman and you are treated like a customer.

I must admit I never fully grasped this concept until you gave the analogy of the sushi restaurant guy in Kill Bill 2, in another thread. It spurred me me to re-evaluate the relationships I've had with many masters and my own students.

 

[troubleenuf]

Actually for 18 years I thought of my instructor as a father figure. I would do anything for him and did. I treated him with the utmost respect. Only to have him sit down with me one day and tell me that everything he had been telling me had been a lie and he had no intention of fulfilling his promises to me. He had been using me as his fall guy for years.
So like I said, you haven't been mistreated yet. Hopefully you wont ever. But that dosnt mean you shouldn't evaluate your relationship based upon business first because thats may be how your instructor is evaluating it even if you dont.

Why not? Mainly because I do not see myself as a customer and my instructors as a business providing a service. We have a different basis for our relationship. I will say that some of my instructors do have "customers", and they are treated differently than the way I am treated. If you see your instructor as a businessman and yourself as a customer, then don't be surprised if your instructor acts like a businessman and you are treated like a customer.

 

[Archtkd]

Actually for 18 years I thought of my instructor as a father figure. I would do anything for him and did. I treated him with the utmost respect. Only to have him sit down with me one day and tell me that everything he had been telling me had been a lie and he had no intention of fulfilling his promises to me. He had been using me as his fall guy for years.
So like I said, you haven't been mistreated yet. Hopefully you wont ever. But that dosnt mean you shouldn't evaluate your relationship based upon business first because thats may be how your instructor is evaluating it even if you dont.

That's terrible. It's interesting the instructor sat down with you to admit he lied to you.

 

[troubleenuf]

I think he realized that I was "opening my eyes" and coming to the realization of what he was doing to me. So it was easier to just tell me the truth and get rid of me so he could move on and do the same to someone else. It was truly one of the worst days of my life. When I walked in the door at home my wife thought someone had died I was so pale and shaken up. But you know what... I have found that it was the best thing that could have happened to me. I went out on my own. Continued my training and teaching and vowed that my students would never have to go through the same thing. I have learned way more on my own than I ever did while I was with him. So in the end, he was the looser, I won.

That's terrible. It's interesting the instructor sat down with you to admit he lied to you.

 

[puunui]

Actually for 18 years I thought of my instructor as a father figure. I would do anything for him and did. I treated him with the utmost respect. Only to have him sit down with me one day and tell me that everything he had been telling me had been a lie and he had no intention of fulfilling his promises to me. He had been using me as his fall guy for years.

Sorry to hear about that. None of my instructors have ever done that to me.

So like I said, you haven't been mistreated yet. Hopefully you wont ever. But that dosnt mean you shouldn't evaluate your relationship based upon business first because thats may be how your instructor is evaluating it even if you dont.

You don't know whether or not I have been mistreated. If I were or was, I certainly wouldn't be speaking about it over the internet. That to me is a big red flag, publicly speaking ill of your instructor, in much the same way that it is a big red flag to publicly speak ill of your parents. I have written about situations in which I thought I had been abused, only to learn later that what was done to me was a gift that few other students received. I have been fortunate in the instructors that I have been able to develop relationships with over the years, no question about it.

 

[puunui]

I must admit I never fully grasped this concept until you gave the analogy of the sushi restaurant guy in Kill Bill 2, in another thread. It spurred me me to re-evaluate the relationships I've had with many masters and my own students.

Kill Bill 1 was Hattori Hanzo. Kill Bill 2 was White Eyebrow. Both gave great lessons. Those are perfect examples of the kinds of teachers I like to learn from.

When I listen or read about the complaints that people have regarding their instructors, it is like someone complaining about the service they received at a restaurant. The customer is always right, he was rude to me, he overcharged me, I had to wait to long for service, these are the statements that you make on a yelp review.

 

[Archtkd]

Kill Bill 1 was Hattori Hanzo. Kill Bill 2 was White Eyebrow. Both gave great lessons. Those are perfect examples of the kinds of teachers I like to learn from.

When I listen or read about the complaints that people have regarding their instructors, it is like someone complaining about the service they received at a restaurant. The customer is always right, he was rude to me, he overcharged me, I had to wait to long for service, these are the statements that you make on a yelp review.

Hattori Hanzo is the one I was referring to so it must be Kill Bill 1. The sushi shop that had the sword operation upstairs.

 

[Bushido Spirit]

Kukkiwon uses the term il dan, not chodan for 1st Dan. But if you are suing him for your 1st Dan, why does your profile state samdan (3rd Dan) as your rank?

Personally, I would never sue any of my instructors, no matter what I thought they did to me.

I have a third dan in Goju ryu and when filling out my profile, I kinda got off track.

As for not suing an instructor...I initially only asked that he give me money back that he took under false pretenses, ($400), we'd go our separate ways, and call it a life-lesson learned. But he has cursed me, threatened me, and told me he would not let me out of my bogus contract, (another story all-together). So, I suppose you might need to know the entire story prior to saying "never"...

 

[puunui]

As for not suing an instructor...I initially only asked that he give me money back that he took under false pretenses, ($400), we'd go our separate ways, and call it a life-lesson learned. But he has cursed me, threatened me, and told me he would not let me out of my bogus contract, (another story all-together). So, I suppose you might need to know the entire story prior to saying "never"...

I wouldn't have asked for the $400 back....

 

[puunui]

Hattori Hanzo is the one I was referring to so it must be Kill Bill 1. The sushi shop that had the sword operation upstairs.

these scenes:

I think people think they want to learn martial arts, when in fact what they are looking for is sushi.

 

[Bushido Spirit]

I wouldn't have asked for the $400 back....

So you'd freely give your Instructor $400 for something he promised in return, and then when you didn't get what you paid for, you'd just call it a loss???

And what if you found out that your instructor had illegally manipulated your contract to charge you more than you originally agreed to pay? Would you just say, "well that's ok too"? How about just give him all of your money? No questions asked...

Sounds like a good candidate for a cult follower.

See, when I spend money for something, I expect to receive what I spent it on.

 

[puunui]

So you'd freely give your Instructor $400 for something he promised in return, and then when you didn't get what you paid for, you'd just call it a loss???

I probably wouldn't have joined the school in the first place. But I have eaten big bills before. For example, in Las Vegas or Cripple Creek (Colorado), I've loaned friends and seniors more than $400 at the tables, which they never paid back. I also ended up picking up the tab for last night's mother's day dinner, for three mothers (one of which was mine), which was more than $400.

And what if you found out that your instructor had illegally manipulated your contract to charge you more than you originally agreed to pay? Would you just say, "well that's ok too"? How about just give him all of your money? No questions asked... Sounds like a good candidate for a cult follower.

Again, that might be a logical conclusion, that I am a cult follower, if I had actually joined the school you are talking about. What conclusions would you draw if I never joined the school in the first place, thus avoiding all of the things that you are presently going through? None of my teachers ever had contracts, at least not the type that you are talking about.

See, when I spend money for something, I expect to receive what I spent it on.

Spoken like a true customer.

 

[Archtkd]

I have a third dan in Goju ryu and when filling out my profile, I kinda got off track.

As for not suing an instructor...I initially only asked that he give me money back that he took under false pretenses, ($400), we'd go our separate ways, and call it a life-lesson learned. But he has cursed me, threatened me, and told me he would not let me out of my bogus contract, (another story all-together). So, I suppose you might need to know the entire story prior to saying "never"...

I don't want to probe too much, but I was wondering what a 3rd Dan in Goju Ryu was trying to get from a Taekwondo master that cost $400? What exactly where you trying to buy and why did it require a contract?