WTF clubs that credits General Choi as founder and/or developer of TaeKwonDo

[Axiom]

Finally, I'd like to talk about "Chang Hon was banned in South Korea". Is there any proof of this? General Choi Hong-hi was exiled from South Korea, and as far as I know there was no official ITF presence in South Korea until 2004, but the Chang Hon style was banned? Who banned it? The Korean government banned a style of movement?

"After the trip to North Korea and while the ITF instructors(mostly former non-commissioned Officer Drill Instructors) were training students in North Korea, instructors started leaving ITF because faith was lost in General Choi. The more pressing issue was that, the instructors did not want to be blacklisted by the South Korean government by associating with General Choi and risk becoming a North Korean/communist sympathizer "

Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy Section 2

 

[Axiom]

Ohdokwan definitely still has a presence in South Korea and has maintained that throughout, .

That's today. You do know that the politics in South Korea changed?


"in the city of Seoul, home to over ten million Koreans, and probably thousands of WTF dojangs, there is one, and only one, ITF dojang." Training with the ITF in Korea.

 

[Tez3]

"After the trip to North Korea and while the ITF instructors(mostly former non-commissioned Officer Drill Instructors) were training students in North Korea, instructors started leaving ITF because faith was lost in General Choi. The more pressing issue was that, the instructors did not want to be blacklisted by the South Korean government by associating with General Choi and risk becoming a North Korean/communist sympathizer "

Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy Section 2

Is there a reason you post articles from Rayners Lane Academy? Is it because you know the chief instructor is a poster here?

 

[Tez3]

That's today. You do know that the politics in South Korea changed?


"in the city of Seoul, home to over ten million Koreans, and probably thousands of WTF dojangs, there is one, and only one, ITF dojang." Training with the ITF in Korea.

You know that's a opinion piece? It even starts 'welcome to my mind'.

 

[Axiom]

You know that's a opinion piece? It even starts 'welcome to my mind'.

It was not an opinion that there is one ITF school located in Seol (at least at the time of writing). To call that "a presence" is pretty optimistic.

 

[Axiom]

Is there a reason you post articles from Rayners Lane Academy? Is it because you know the chief instructor is a poster here?

I see no reason not to. To communicate with North Korea back in the day was punishable by death, and to support such a person by teaching his system is trouble in the water. General Choi founded the Chang Hon school and communicated with North Korea. This is very simple logic even for the layperson. No need to take formal classes like I did.

 

[Gnarlie]

"After the trip to North Korea and while the ITF instructors(mostly former non-commissioned Officer Drill Instructors) were training students in North Korea, instructors started leaving ITF because faith was lost in General Choi. The more pressing issue was that, the instructors did not want to be blacklisted by the South Korean government by associating with General Choi and risk becoming a North Korean/communist sympathizer "

Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy Section 2

That's today. You do know that the politics in South Korea changed?


"in the city of Seoul, home to over ten million Koreans, and probably thousands of WTF dojangs, there is one, and only one, ITF dojang." Training with the ITF in Korea.

It was not an opinion that there is one ITF school located in Seol (at least at the time of writing). To call that "a presence" is pretty optimistic.

None of these posts support your claim that Chang Hon was banned.

Neither do they contradict Andy's assertion that Oh Do Kwan has had a presence throughout. You understand that there is a difference between Oh Do Kwan and ITF, right?

So, source?

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[Axiom]

None of these posts support your claim that Chang Hon was banned.

Neither do they contradict Andy's assertion that Oh Do Kwan has had a presence throughout. You understand that there is a difference between Oh Do Kwan and ITF, right?

So, source?

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To be blacklisted is functionally equivalent to having ones art banned, unless you have a masochistic side to your personality. And to call ITF/Chang Hon a "presence" in South Korea with one ITF school operating in Seol could only be uttered by a KKW That's why I'm here.

 

[andyjeffries]

I see no reason not to. To communicate with North Korea back in the day was punishable by death, and to support such a person by teaching his system is trouble in the water. General Choi founded the Chang Hon school and communicated with North Korea. This is very simple logic even for the layperson. No need to take formal classes like I did.

You took a formal class in what? Debating? Logic?

You committed the following logical fallacies - you say because General Choi founded Chang Hon and he was (effectively) banned, therefore anyone following his style of movement (regardless of political beliefs) would be - so the style was banned. There's no proof of this that you've posted, just your own logical chain that has a missing link.

 

[Gnarlie]

I see no reason why not. To communicate with North Korea back in the day was punishable by death, and to support such a person by teaching his system is trouble in the water. General Choi founded the Chang Hon school and communicated with North Korea. This is very simple logic even for the layperson. No need to take formal classes like I did.

It's more likely that instructors who were not in Choi's ITF never used the Chang Hon set but rather earlier forms such as Balsek and the Pyong Ahn series.

Those who left the ITF at that time would have either chosen to revert to those older forms, or continued to train Chang Hon both up to and possibly after the foundation of the KKW and introduction of the Palgwe and Yudanja set. This would depend on their own personal preferences and the Kwan they belonged to.

This is certainly borne out by the presence of so-called traditional taekwondo in Europe - that is to say non-ITF Chang Hon taught by some of the early Korean pioneers who never joined KKW because they left around the time it was founded.

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[andyjeffries]

To be blacklisted is functionally equivalent to having ones art banned, unless you have a masochistic side to your personality. And to call ITF/Chang Hon a "presence" in South Korea with one ITF school operating in Seol could only be uttered by a KKW That's why I'm here.

Again, you're confusing Ohdokwan/ITF.

The two are VERY separate things.

General Choi founded Ohdokwan, but left it alone after he founded the ITF. It doesn't change that the ITF was originally General Choi's baby (he was the first kwanjang, but not the last, even while he was alive) nor that the Ohdokwan is alive and well in Korea, with more than one school headed up by an Ohdokwan-background instructor.

 

[Axiom]

You committed the following logical fallacies - you say because General Choi founded Chang Hon and he was (effectively) banned, therefore anyone following his style of movement (regardless of political beliefs) would be - so the style was banned. There's no proof of this that you've posted, just your own logical chain that has a missing link.

Yes, that is my inference. In a dictatorship, I'd say that's not much of a stretch. Could you elaborate more about Chang Hon TKDs presence in South Korea? I'm very intrigued given one school in Seol. Why are KKWS so misinformed?

 

[Gnarlie]

To be blacklisted is functionally equivalent to having ones art banned, unless you have a masochistic side to your personality.

Read your source again. It says blacklisted for associating with Choi / NK. Not for practicing or teaching his forms.

And to call ITF/Chang Hon a "presence" in South Korea with one ITF school operating in Seol could only be uttered by a KKW

Nobody said that, you are arguing against yourself. Read it again. Chang Hon is not just ITF. Oh Do Kwan is not just ITF, nor is it just Chang Hon. We are dealing in facts here; nothing to do with taking sides KKW or ITF. That's for underdeveloped minds.

That's why I'm here.

Oh, as resident expert, yeah? Pfft.

 

[Axiom]

Chang Hon is not just ITF. Oh Do Kwan is not just ITF, nor is it just Chang Hon. We are dealing in facts here; nothing to do with taking sides KKW or ITF. That's for underdeveloped minds.




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Why would a reporter looking for traditional TaeKwonDo (as he calls it) negate non ITF-affiliations? If there is only one ITF school, that naturally means there is only one Chang Hon one, or else someone should let the word out that IT'S THE SAME ART minus Sine Wave. I will not even take into concideration that he passed by Chang Hon schools and only looked for ITF logos. That would be a Homer Simpson moment.

 

[andyjeffries]

That's today. You do know that the politics in South Korea changed?

Hahahaha. Yes, as a student of Taekwondo for just over 30 years, with three years of Korean language learning and having been to South Korea five times, I'm aware that it's not the same place it was in the 70s. Out of interest, how much have you invested in learning about South Korea?

"in the city of Seoul, home to over ten million Koreans, and probably thousands of WTF dojangs, there is one, and only one, ITF dojang." Training with the ITF in Korea.

Just to be pedantic, there are at least two that a quick google search could come up with (and I'm only searching in English).

Training with the ITF in Korea. - Kim, Hoon
Visit to Korea ITF Seoul Training Centre - Cho, Yeong-deok

Different guys, both teaching in Seoul. I'm sure there are many more (but the official website http://itfkorea.com seems horribly broken to me), but two was enough to prove your assertion/"proof" incorrect.

 

[Gnarlie]

Yes, that is my inference. In a dictatorship, I'd say that's not much of a stretch.

Presence of Korean pioneers in Germany, what they teach, and the dates that they arrived out of SK prove you wrong. Take a look around.

Could you elaborate more about Chang Hon TKDs presence in South Korea? I'm very intrigued given one school in Seol.

Why are KKWS so misinformed?

See above for evidence that exists if you want to find it. I won't do your research for you.

You can't differentiate Chang Hon, Ohdokwan, and ITF, and that means KKW practitioners are misinformed. Nice leap, maybe you should try joining a demo team with jumping skills like those.

Can someone ban this troll for reopening a THIRD account on this site after two previous bans please? I'm sick of reading this garbage.


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[Axiom]

Just to be pedantic, there are at least two that a quick google search could come up with (and I'm only searching in English).

Training with the ITF in Korea. - Kim, Hoon
Visit to Korea ITF Seoul Training Centre - Cho, Yeong-deok

Different guys, both teaching in Seoul. I'm sure there are many more (but the official website http://itfkorea.com seems horribly broken to me), but two was enough to prove your assertion/"proof" incorrect.

Oh, so there's at least two? Well that changes everything then. A handfull compared to thousands of KKW schools (or whatever the number is in Seol).

 

[andyjeffries]

So are you shocked? Kukkiwon Taekwondo is much bigger in Seoul. The heads of the kwans (technically) gave up their individual dojangs/groups to form Taekwondo, started the KTA, built the Kukkiwon and yet you're surprised that one splinter group that didn't want any part of it is underrepresented in the very country where all that unification happened?

 

[Axiom]

You can't differentiate Chang Hon, Ohdokwan, and ITF,

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I can differentiate the three. A person in Seol looking for Chang Hon forms will get it in either one, and will not reject it simply because it is not ITF affiliated.

 

[Gnarlie]

Why would a reporter looking for traditional TaeKwonDo (as he calls it) negate non ITF-affiliations?

Unbalanced reporting? Reporting with an agenda? Ignorance? Don't believe everything you read online. Go to Korea. Learn.

If there is only one ITF school, that naturally means there is only one Chang Hon one, or else someone should let the word out that IT'S THE SAME ART minus Sine Wave.

Nope, that's a logical fallacy because Chang Hon exists outside of the ITF and has since that time.

I will not even take into concideration that he passed by Chang Hon schools and only looked for ITF logos. That would be a Homer Simpson moment.

Oh you won't even consider that something you read online might not be correct? Sounds like a sound basis for critical thinking.



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