wtf and itf

[Damian Mavis]

I teach ITF, I seriously train kuyokushin karate and muay thai. I'm feeling you think its a mistake to study and fight in multiple arts?

 

[Kwanjang]

I teach ITF, I seriously train kuyokushin karate and muay thai. I'm feeling you think its a mistake to study and fight in multiple arts?

Who is the ? for?

 

[TaeKwonDoKevin]

Hey all.....Greetings,
I agree with a lot of the posts, but somewhat disagree with a few of the comments....
Here is my opinion & 2 cents worth for free.
I am a TaeKwonDo person for 30 years now. Primarily studied Chang Hon TKD, but do have WTF training.
At one time I studied ShudoKan Karate, similar to Shotokan, received brown belt. There are many differences in the styles.

ShudoKan-ShotoKan
1- Usually does NOT lift foot off the ground when advancing forward or back. The foot pattern is a 1/2 moon in and out shape while staying on the ground.
2- Usually you advance forward, then block or punch After your foot is finished moving.
3- The head stays level at all time, even while moving.
4- Kicks chamber differently
The theories in strikes and power are much different in the 2 Arts.

These are just the basic differences, of course there are many more.
Most Martial Artists see the difference, even non martial Artists can see the difference in JMA & KMA.
In my opinion, the ITF & WTF systems are more alike than ITF & Shotokan.
My question is, since ITF has so much Shotokan in it, where did WTF TKD come from? It's not like ITF is Shotokan and WTF is something from outerspace. Many (if not all) of the early WTF Instructors came from the ITF. The evolution of the 2 Arts are different, so the ITF & WTF are different. But they still share the same roots.

Back to the Original question.....Which one is better---better for what I ask? The reason why both Federatons are popular, are for their differences. Just like a car & a truck.....which one is better....depends on what you want it for.
Enjoy the Art, and train from your heart!
-Kevin

 

[Kwanjang]

Great post TKDKevin

you make some great points.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Who is the ? for?

Sorry for Dancingalone

 

[dancingalone]

I teach ITF, I seriously train kuyokushin karate and muay thai. I'm feeling you think its a mistake to study and fight in multiple arts?

I'm sure you have your reasons for doing so. Do you compete? I understand there is a fair amount of crossover among kyokushin people in the competitive kickboxing venues, including muay thai.

I have no objections to cross-training but I wouldn't practice multiple striking arts since they all have their own ways of performing the same kick or hand strike. Too many mechanics to get confused about. On the other hand, the locking aspects of hapkido is an excellent complement to taekwondo if one's TKD teacher only teaches striking, just be sure to leave out the hapkido kicking. Ditto with jujutsu and karate. The idea is to become competent in all ranges, rather than duplicating the same skills.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I'm sure you have your reasons for doing so. Do you compete? I understand there is a fair amount of crossover among kyokushin people in the competitive kickboxing venues, including muay thai.

I have no objections to cross-training but I wouldn't practice multiple striking arts since they all have their own ways of performing the same kick or hand strike. Too many mechanics to get confused about. On the other hand, the locking aspects of hapkido is an excellent complement to taekwondo if one's TKD teacher only teaches striking, just be sure to leave out the hapkido kicking. Ditto with jujutsu and karate. The idea is to become competent in all ranges, rather than duplicating the same skills.

I disagree. The reason that different striking arts have different striking methods is because different situations call for different strikes.

There is no "catch-all" system that teaches every strike that you will need to have in your arsenal.

I agree with being competent in all ranges, since everyone really needs to be well-rounded these days in how to protect themselves from different types of attacks. I just don't see that anyone would be duplicating the same skills just because they practice 2 different striking arts.

A great example is the foot-movement patterns TaeKwonDoKevin was talking about in his post:

In Shodokan/Shotokan, the foot make a half-moon pattern when advancing, and in TKD, the feet are lifted when advancing. There are advantages to both movements when advancing, otherwise, they wouldn't be taught. I.E. In moving your feet in a half-moon pattern, you are keeping your center of gravity closer to the ground, and you are in an easier position to guard against takedowns. In picking your feet up, you increase your speed and the ability for lateral-movement.

To me, the point is that there are an infinite number of ways to throw strikes, and there is no way to learn them all and master them all. But why not learn as many ways to throw a strike as you can, and learn when the strike should be used in which situation? After all, isn't that pretty much what martial arts in general teach you to do?

 

[YoungMan]

My question is, since ITF has so much Shotokan in it, where did WTF TKD come from? It's not like ITF is Shotokan and WTF is something from outerspace. Many (if not all) of the early WTF Instructors came from the ITF. The evolution of the 2 Arts are different, so the ITF & WTF are different. But they still share the same roots.


Aside from the highly developed WTF free fighting, my theory on this: WTF technique developed the way it did because, since the WTF is based in Korea and much more exposed to native Korean technique, it developed simultaneously with the re-emergence of native Korean and reflects this.
ITF Taekwondo is essentially a combination of Choi's Shotokan and the Chung Do Kwan of the black belts who joined him. Since Choi left Korea decades ago, his organization reflects the Taekwondo at that time.
Since the WTF and Kukkiwon never left Korea, they became the recipients of a resurgent native Korean MA movement, and the technique reflects this.

Call me crazy, but it's as good as any explanation.

 

[dancingalone]

I agree with being competent in all ranges, since everyone really needs to be well-rounded these days in how to protect themselves from different types of attacks. I just don't see that anyone would be duplicating the same skills just because they practice 2 different striking arts.

It's a question of limited time. There are only so many hours in the day after all. Is it really that useful to learn 4 different ways to throw a back leg sidekick? Hapkido people chamber one way, TKD another, and shotokan karate another. What the the lead hand punch? What about the front kick? What about the basic leg sweep from the back foot?

The point is that all striking arts have one variation or another of some core techniques. I simply believe it's counterproductive to learn so many variations of the same thing. Stick to one style, master it, and become comfortable in your own body. When you reach that level of achievement, technique is infinitely adaptable to you anyway - no need to learn another style.

I asked this in another thread: What use is it to train in tang soo do if you already train in taekwondo? You could apply the same to shotokan karate (which is generally considered a medium to long range style) and taekwondo (generally considered a long range style). With a little bit of adaptation, you could move between ranges without having to learn a different system with different basics.

True cross-training is another matter. It makes sense to learn some grappling if you know none, and vice versa.

 

[dancingalone]

Aside from the highly developed WTF free fighting, my theory on this: WTF technique developed the way it did because, since the WTF is based in Korea and much more exposed to native Korean technique, it developed simultaneously with the re-emergence of native Korean and reflects this.

I don't want to start another taekyon argument if that is the gist of your statement, but what in your opinion is "native Korean technique"? All the documentation I have seen tends to show current Korean martial arts come largely from Japanese martial tradition with some transplanted Chinese chuan fa of the chang quan variety.

 

[BrandonLucas]

It's a question of limited time. There are only so many hours in the day after all. Is it really that useful to learn 4 different ways to throw a back leg sidekick? Hapkido people chamber one way, TKD another, and shotokan karate another. What the the lead hand punch? What about the front kick? What about the basic leg sweep from the back foot?

The point is that all striking arts have one variation or another of some core techniques. I simply believe it's counterproductive to learn so many variations of the same thing. Stick to one style, master it, and become comfortable in your own body. When you reach that level of achievement, technique is infinitely adaptable to you anyway - no need to learn another style.

I asked this in another thread: What use is it to train in tang soo do if you already train in taekwondo? You could apply the same to shotokan karate (which is generally considered a medium to long range style) and taekwondo (generally considered a long range style). With a little bit of adaptation, you could move between ranges without having to learn a different system with different basics.

True cross-training is another matter. It makes sense to learn some grappling if you know none, and vice versa.

I can see the point in what you're saying, as far as training in vastly similar striking styles, such as TKD and TSD.

There are, however, plenty of MMAists out there that train in Muay Thai as well as TKD or Shotokan, and then crosstrain in a grappling martial art, such as BJJ or Judo.

I also see your point that there are only so many hours in the day to learn strikes and such, and no, I wouldn't want to get hung up on the mechanics of making sure the punch is either executed with the fist at a 45 degree angle or straight on. I think you're right that after you've become accustomed enough to the striking arts, you will learn how to adapt. This is also another trait of learning ANY martial art.

But I do think it's a great idea to learn variations on different strikes...leg kicks, for instance. In Muay Thai, the kicks are performed with the shin, and in TKD, the kicks are mostly performed using different parts of the foot itself. Both types of kicks hit the same target in the same general way, but the effect the kicks have are different.

 

[dancingalone]

But I do think it's a great idea to learn variations on different strikes...leg kicks, for instance. In Muay Thai, the kicks are performed with the shin, and in TKD, the kicks are mostly performed using different parts of the foot itself. Both types of kicks hit the same target in the same general way, but the effect the kicks have are different.

I have no problem with this. If the muay thai round house kick works better for you, steal it and make it yours. It's a slippery slope however. When you cross over into actually training another full style, you might have issues.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Ya.... the Koreans push the myth of TKD coming from ancient Korean technique but that is straight up propaganda, its all Japanese base, and before that China? And before that India? hehe

No there is very little crossover from ITF to muay thai so studying both is only beneficial as it adds many more weapons to your arsenal. The nice thing about Muay Thai is you can add your TKD arsenal freely, there is no limitation, but you cant really bring muay thai techniques into TKD.

Kyokushin on the other hand has alot of similar techniques to both TKD and Muay Thai so its like a really nice bridge between the 2 if, like me, you studied TKD and muay thai. Also.... at no time have I ever seen TKD practice the same kind of conditioning and toughening drills as Kyokushin, even muay thai doesnt do this, although muay thai will definately toughen you up due to the contact and macho image. But Kyokushin..... its on a whole other level, Im not sure if all schools are as rough as mine but the training is a little too intense. I say too intense because I was unable to fight in the last tournament because I didnt survive the training to get ready for it. Landed up with serious enough injuries that I had to take a few weeks off to heal right before the fight and by then it was too late.

I study grappling and kungfu too but the 3 striking arts I talked about are the ones I take most seriously and devote my time too. I live in Thailand and have a very open schedule (I only teach TKD a couple hours a day and acting gigs are periodic) so I am able to make the time for training in multiple arts... not to mention Im getting older now (35) and look back and realise Ive been training for almost 20 years.

 

[dancingalone]

Also.... at no time have I ever seen TKD practice the same kind of conditioning and toughening drills as Kyokushin

Yes, and that's a big criticism I have with many overly commercial MA schools. They only teach basics (badly), forms (without applications and intent), and sports sparring (not fighting, which is something else entirely). All traditional martial arts have a body strengthening and toughening component. It is these exercises that make it possible for you to put your fist through a stack of bricks or allow you to survive a baseball bat swing connecting with your torso. It's a shame these methods have fallen out of disfavor so much so that many martial arts don't even know they exist.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Well we definately do conditioning at my school and we definately do not do sport sparring as that is WTF style. But the growing popularity of martial arts over the last 20 years has created business schools which is why conditioning is not taught much anymore, it loses money.

 

[YoungMan]

Not saying Taekwondo is 2000 years old. Am saying as Taekkyon and other native arts reasserted themselves, the Taekwondo that stayed in Korea (Kukkiwon and WTF) consciously got rid of the old Japanese-oriented approach to technique and replaced it with a Korean-oriented approach if you will.
I've seen Taekwondo sparring and technique, Taekkyon technique, and Shotokan technique. Can you honestly say modern Taekwondo resembles Shotokan? Many of the techniques and ways of execution I practiced years ago look just like what I've seen Taekkyon do.
Again, Choi's ITF reflects his Shotokan and Chung Do Kwan approach.

 

[SJON]

YoungMan, I would agree that modern WTF sparring has come almost full-circle and now displays some notable similarities to Taekyon. Or at least, WTF sparring up to a few years ago, when it turned into the lamentable display we saw in the last Olympics.

However, the "basic technique", the patterns and the 1 and 3 step sparring of both KKW and Chang Hon TKD have a huge and highly visible influence from the Okinawan and Japanese arts, despite certain differences in execution.

 

[exile]

I would add that taekkyon had symbolic content for people who had nothing to do with the martial arts. Reactionary racial nationalists and racist political figures, like Shin Hae-cho—who had zip technical knowledge of the MAs—used taekkyon in much the same way that German protofacist movements in the early twentieth century identified certain kinds of folk dancing and 'black letter' type faces as central components of pure racial identity setting the true Volk off from... others. It has carried a very heavy symbolic weight (in the spite of the fact that, as many independent sources have pointed out, it was primarily adopted in the late 19th century by criminal street gangs—something Simon brought up in his book—and the still more interesting fact that it wasn't specifically Korean at all: Stuart Cullin, in his 1895 ethnographic study of northerm Asian games and sports, notes that it was also practiced... in Japan—apparently at least as long as in Korea, appearing around the same time at the beginning of the 19th century.

Nonetheless, just as people in Germany were dead certain that Gothic lettering and architecture were rooted in and first emerged in Germany (whereas the evidence actually supports the earliest appearance of both in France)—with 'Gothicness' carrying a very heavy burden of cultural identity in the first years of German unification—taekkyon as, as Eric Madis noted in his outstanding recent article on the emergence of TKD, has continued to have a remarkable hold on Korean consciousness. People look for symbols to express who they are, or more accurately, who they feel themselves to be or who they want to be. In modern Korea, Taekkyon fit the bill perfectly. Remember that interview with General Choi, where he in effect says that at the end of the famous demo Nam Tae Hi performed in front of Syngman Rhee, that military dictator told an astonished Choi, in effect, 'Yes! This taekkyon stuff is great! Everyone should be learning it and learning about it'. The performance had largely consisted of multiple tile breaks... :lol:

Symbolism, myths and legends have long, long lifespans...