Would you help?

[malteaser14]

I live in an area where the crime rate is above average and I am still talked about bythe regulars and old staff members of a pub I used to work in 4yrs ago because of the fights, riots, bottlings, and even verbal aggressive 'people' I used to 'deal' with! But outside of that pub is a different matter!

I have seen women claim domestic violence as they run crying from their attacker, and when someone interjects the women starts attacking the Samaritan!! (Seen all too frequently!)

There was domestic abuse happening to my pregnant neighbour and I called the police, who arrived 5mins later, at the point I was about to knock on her door and play innocent and invite her around for a cuppa! Then if I needed to get involved I would have coz babies life was at risk.

If a violent altercation happened, if it was family of friend or abuse of a minor, I'd get involved, but anyone else I'd call the police... Ifs what they're trained to do!

 

[Cyriacus]

My 2 cents: If someone pulls a knife or gun on Me, first thing I want to know is why.
If They want My Wallet, They can have it. Ill take My Lucky Coin, hand it over, then when He leaves, freeze My Credit Card, call the Police, and be glad that I never, ever carry cash. Then Ill see about getting a new Drivers Licence.

If They want to issue Threats, and have produced the Weapon specifically to do so, why?
Were We argueing? If so, "Jesus christ man, sorry. Do you want me to go? Look, ill buy you a drink first, lets just calm down, I was just messing around.". Did He randomly accost Me in a public place at night? Then I might be thinking about taking more volatile action, when some complete stranger randomly walks over and produces a weapon, and doesnt want something from Me.

Is He trying to steal My car? Sure, take it. Its insured against Theft. I aint gonna risk My Life for it.

What other scenarios can We work off? Because thats all just off the top of My head.

 

[Sanke]

To answer the OP, I'd like to think I'd help, at least letting the woman inside and calling the police, as many here have said already. But I know for a fact that's not always how it goes with me.

About 8 months back now I was working as the cash register monkey I am, and these two suspicious looking types, (tatoos on just about any part of the body you can think of, big empty bags) walked in. Even if I was stereotyping, at that point I was certainly going to keep my eyes on them (That and my manager told me to :uhyeah:).
Nothing really happened at first, one of them left the store and the other was at the checkout next to mine, when another customer behind him started shouting to us "Hey! His mate just stole a bunch of stuff!", pointing to one of the two. At this point, he (the tattooed guy) started getting quite aggressive, shouting, swearing, making fists, etc, all the signs of a fight that I'd been taught about, and seen. But the customer kept accusing him (or rather his friend) of theft.
So the tattooed man walked right up to the customer and headbutted him.
All the while I was watching this, and I did nothing. I knew what was about to happen, that the guy was in danger and making it worse, but I still did nothing. When I was told to call the police, I froze up and my manager had to do it.
Fortunately the customer was (relatively) fine, and nothing further came of it. The man's friend came in and talked him down, it turns out the customer was talking about a third guy he'd seen, and assumed they were friends, but I still found the fact that I just stood there watching quite troubling.
I wasn't sure what I was meant to do, if I should have yelled at the man to back off, as I was quite safe behind the counter, or if that would have made it worse, if I did the right thing, keeping myself out of the line of fire, etc. I still don't really know.

At the end of the day, it's going to come down to the moment, I think. Maybe next time I will step in, maybe I'll do exactly what I did. But I will say that I hope next time, I'll at least just call the police.

On a slightly different tangent...

I think it a foolish assumption from anyone to assume they already know what the person has to offer. I think it also a foolish assumption for the teacher not to see what they can learn from their student, also. Both have something to offer, and both need each other for their respective roles to exist.

I wanted to also pick up on this part, because I don't think you really understand what this means, Alex.
Yes, a teacher can learn much from his student, about applications of technique and strategy, about how different people work physically and mentally, about teaching and much more.
This does not mean the student turning around and explaining things to or correcting the teacher. The student should never assume they know more than the teacher, or that they can teach them. One does not explain the meanings of Shakespeare to an English teacher, regardless of how much you or they feel you understand the play. There's a reason why they are the teacher.

Just to put this in perspective, this isn't coming from a teacher, or a senior. This comes from a fellow student. I'm your age, mate, and if I behaved the way you have been here, I would be out of my class in a heartbeat.
That's my 2 cents at any rate.

Oh, and Tez, I'm very glad to hear your daughter is ok.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Hmm Sanke slight stereotyping there chief... I'm gonna walk into your store now with my head shaved, tattoos on full display carrying empty bags On a slightly more serious note, with my own limited experience of real world violence, I'd say the survivalist mentality kicked in rather than "hero" one. As I mentioned in an early post, I've stepped in before when close friends were threatened: once, things didn't really escalate beyond verbal, another time however the guy I had an issue with had half a dozen friends around the corner and to be bluntly honest, I got my *** kicked. It's amazing how quickly your focus goes from "this guy is harassing someone I'm with, I'm going to defend her honour" to "protect the head, get up off the ground, get to the car and get the hell out of there".

It's that past experience in fact which led me to start this thread after those emails were sent out for us. The whole thing of "2 outta 3 aint bad" doesn't quite gel in my head when it could quite literally become a life or death situation - over a perfect stranger to boot! - and I wanted to see how others with training far more advanced than mine would respond if faced with that situation. For the most part though, everyone has said stuff along the same lines which I've found to be a huge help in reaffirming my own priorities and mentality. Thank you to everyone who has posted on this so far for that by the way. Even you Z, you've brought up some interesting conversation

P.S: Tez, so sorry I didn't get to this earlier, I've been using my phone for internet primarily over the past few days so haven't had full access to the forums but I'm also glad that your daughter is ok! For what it's worth, if she's even half as tough as what I picture you to be based on our few limited interactions, I'd say she would probably meet adversity in the ring and force a submission without breaking a sweat

 

[Kinghercules]

Why such disdain for Kendo? I'm not a Kendoka myself and while I won't argue that it is a combat art, it definitely has many merits. I'd say any Kendoka who trains seriously would have brilliant speed and reflexes and while they may not be cutting correctly with a sword, if they were to pick up a stick on the street for instance and perform those strikes with power, they would still cause serious injury.



Why do I train what exactly? Why do I train traditional martial arts? For the discipline that comes from committing to/sticking with training, the interest in culture and history, the desire to expand myself as a person - and let's face it, I'm not running off to join in any battles in Ancient Japan (my DeLorean is in the shop for a service); it's exercise and a great social activity where I've made some great friends with similar interests. If I tried to use my art as it is in a street fight, I would be killed or end up as one of Youtube's many horror stories and be laughed at for years to come

Why do I train the modern self defence component of our classes? Simple. So I can get home safe. Not so I can go looking for fights, not so I can get myself hurt, killed or arrested and not so that one day I can finally wear my batman costume for realsies rather than just to comic book conventions.

I have no issues stepping in to help someone if it is in my power but the cost is something I would need to assess. Are my bills paid or am I leaving debts behind? How many people depend on my wellbeing and safety for their own needs based on my relationship with them? What will happen to my dogs? That said I have intervened before when close friends were threatened. Would I do it for a total stranger who wasn't at my door asking for help when the odds are stacked against me? No idea. Won't know till it happens and I hope I don't have to find out.



Cool, that's something I'll have to work on myself then

I dont have disdain for the art Kendo. I just said that as an art thats not really geared for street fightin. People today that train in Kendo do it as a hobby. No one walks around with a sword.

If the are that you're trainin in doesnt give you the confidants that you need to be able to fight in the street then you're just wastin you time (jus how I feel). So many ppl nowa days train in the MMA that I wouldnt wanna be unprepared to defend myself in the street.

Just because you train in a traditional art doesnt lessen your skills. My teacher taught Taekwondo Tangsoodo but had trained in Japan under Toyam Kanken. So we trained like the Japanese even tho our banner said TKD. And ever since elementary my trainin has served me well in street situations. So its not the art that you're trainin in....its what you're bein taught and how you're bein taught.

 

[Supra Vijai]

I dont have disdain for the art Kendo. I just said that as an art thats not really geared for street fightin. People today that train in Kendo do it as a hobby. No one walks around with a sword.

If the are that you're trainin in doesnt give you the confidants that you need to be able to fight in the street then you're just wastin you time (jus how I feel). So many ppl nowa days train in the MMA that I wouldnt wanna be unprepared to defend myself in the street.

Just because you train in a traditional art doesnt lessen your skills. My teacher taught Taekwondo Tangsoodo but had trained in Japan under Toyam Kanken. So we trained like the Japanese even tho our banner said TKD. And ever since elementary my trainin has served me well in street situations. So its not the art that you're trainin in....its what you're bein taught and how you're bein taught.

Agreed no one (sane) walks around with a sword these days. That's not why we train sword work though. Sword gives you incredible insight into strategy not necessarily battlefield fighting because the reality was that Japanese soldiers wouldn't not have fought with swords on the battlefield when the other guy had a spear 3 times longer than most katana.

Again, at no point have I said I lack the confidence to fight in the street should I need to. My entire point was that common sense and logic and self preservation rank higher than heroism. Also the understanding that real life fighting is nothing like in the movies and the bad guys won't take turns to come in and launch their attacks one after the other helps. I don't care who you are or what you train, if you get 3 or more opponents attacking you (not standing there threatening, actually attacking) your chances drop rapidly of getting away unhurt let alone victorious. As for how many people train in the MMA these days, granted, there are a lot of people with at least some basic skills and training but sadly there are just as many delusional ones who train exclusively by watching UFC. Especially here in Australia, it's not nearly as big as issue as elsewhere in the world. Just to clarify though, again at no point did I say we didn't train to defend against all types of fighters in a modern context.

I'm glad your training has served you well in the past, clearly it's kept you alive long enough to be able to post here! However we prefer to avoid the situation in the first place rather than testing what we've learnt to prove it to ourselves or anyone else. As for what we're being taught or how, well that's your opinion (albeit one with no basis) and nothing I say on a forum will change your mind. That's fine, not my job to recruit new students or "convert the non believers". As far as the students in the school are concerned, it works for us and just to be clear, I've tried a few arts under a few instructors and this one is a good fit for me so that's all I'm going to care about.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

the police do need to start actually doing their job and protecting us

That's not their job, according to the US Supreme Court and numerous lower courts.

 

[Chris Parker]

And just while I'm here....

I dont have disdain for the art Kendo. I just said that as an art thats not really geared for street fightin. People today that train in Kendo do it as a hobby. No one walks around with a sword.

So the Tokyo Police and Riot Squad train in Kendo as a hobby? Not really geared for their needs you say? Believe me when I tell you that to these guys, it's about as serious as training can get. TKD, now, there's an art trained as a hobby....

You may want to reconsider what you think the benefits of training in an art like Kendo are. Carrying swords in daily life really doesn't enter into it.

If the are that you're trainin in doesnt give you the confidants that you need to be able to fight in the street then you're just wastin you time (jus how I feel). So many ppl nowa days train in the MMA that I wouldnt wanna be unprepared to defend myself in the street.

English, please. TOS and all that....

But to your comments, you have a particular impression of martial arts training (one that I'd personally consider very limited and limiting, but that's me), but it is hardly a complete impression for all arts, and all reasons for training. Additionally, who has ever said that Supra's training doesn't give him the confidence that he needs/wants? You haven't even gotten his art right so far (despite it being in his signature... as well as mine), so I'm not sure how you can make any assumptions about what his training actually gives him.

Just because you train in a traditional art doesnt lessen your skills. My teacher taught Taekwondo Tangsoodo but had trained in Japan under Toyam Kanken. So we trained like the Japanese even tho our banner said TKD. And ever since elementary my trainin has served me well in street situations. So its not the art that you're trainin in....its what you're bein taught and how you're bein taught.

Ah... TKD... very traditional. But quick question, if it's what you're being taught, and how you're being taught, how is that not the art? And who is "Toyam Kanken"? And why would "training like the Japanese" be better if you're training in a Korean form of art?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Of course there are - But assuming that the gun needs to be cocked before being fired is frankly dangerous, when a fair few guns dont. Id did phrase that way too generally though. I totally forgot about single and double action being a factor. I havent been into guns for years.

Couldn't agree more. For a mere mortal to make such an assumption is to invite death. But if you can back down three armed robbers by doing nothing more than glaring drunkenly up at them, then maybe you can also, by pure force of will, turn a DA handgun into a SA.

 

[jks9199]

Alright, folks, closing this train wreck before I have to issue some infraction points.

As a general reminder, Martial Talk isn't the place for fraudbusting or simply attacking users. There's another site for that...

jks9199
MT Assistant Administrator

 

[jks9199]

Numerous disruptive posts in this thread have been removed, and placed HERE.

This thread is being re-opened. Any further disruption or personal attacks will lead to infractions being issued, with NO further warnings.

jks9199
MartialTalk Assistant Administrator

 

[Kinghercules]

And just while I'm here....

Seriously?
How bout next time you keep it movin?!

So the Tokyo Police and Riot Squad train in Kendo as a hobby? Not really geared for their needs you say? Believe me when I tell you that to these guys, it's about as serious as training can get. TKD, now, there's an art trained as a hobby....

You may want to reconsider what you think the benefits of training in an art like Kendo are. Carrying swords in daily life really doesn't enter into it.

IDK what you been told but the police of Japan primary trainin is in karate and Aikido but truefully.....I really dont care what they do.


English, please. TOS and all that....

But to your comments, you have a particular impression of martial arts training (one that I'd personally consider very limited and limiting, but that's me), but it is hardly a complete impression for all arts, and all reasons for training. Additionally, who has ever said that Supra's training doesn't give him the confidence that he needs/wants? You haven't even gotten his art right so far (despite it being in his signature... as well as mine), so I'm not sure how you can make any assumptions about what his training actually gives him.

Thats why I said "Jus how I feel." If you know I have a "particular" view WTH you commentin for?
You make no sense.

Ah... TKD... very traditional. But quick question, if it's what you're being taught, and how you're being taught, how is that not the art? And who is "Toyam Kanken"? And why would "training like the Japanese" be better if you're training in a Korean form of art?

Because the "art" isnt the one havin to fight in the street.

 

[Sanke]

IDK what you been told but the police of Japan primary trainin is in karate and Aikido but truefully.....I really dont care what they do.

Just FYI, I know for a fact that the TPF and riot squads train in Kendo. Mostly because my iaido teacher spent a number of years training with them. I'm sure branches are most likely taught Aikido and Karate, but they most definitely also learn Kendo.

Because the "art" isnt the one havin to fight in the street.

Speaking of making no sense... How does that answer the question, or have anything to do with training for street fighting? And why would an abstract concept of combat training have to fight in the street in the first place?
If I'm getting what you're saying, the more 'traditional' methods of teaching aren't geared up for self defence training at all, so if you're arguing that a more traditional way of teaching is better, then no, not for everything.
That's if I'm even reading it right, it's quite difficult to follow what you're going on about.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Seriously?
How bout next time you keep it movin?!

Might I suggest you look where you wrote this and then go up a whole two posts? Not pages, posts. Being passionate is one thing, being out right arrogant and flaunting specified rules is another... Just saying...

IDK what you been told but the police of Japan primary trainin is in karate and Aikido but truefully.....I really dont care what they do.

Herc, this is a martial arts forum with members consisting primarily of martial artists wanting to engage in debate, discussion and ideally expand their knowledge. The attitude of "I really don't care what they do" doesn't help with any of those things, especially when the thing you don't care about was one you brought up in the first place and had put into context for you.

Thats why I said "Jus how I feel." If you know I have a "particular" view WTH you commentin for?
You make no sense.

Again, this is a forum. A forum is literally defined as follows:
[h=3]fo·rum/ˈfôrəm/[/h][TABLE="class: ts"]
[TR]
[TD]Noun:
[/TD]
[TD][TABLE="class: ts"]
[TR]
[TD]

1. A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
2. An Internet message board.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
This is THE place to exchange ideas and share/compare views. That is why this place exists. When you (or I) post a particular view, it is a given that SOMEONE will reply with their view on or approach to the same thing. Also, what part of Mr. Parkers' post made no sense to you? If you specify, I'm sure it can be reworded either by Mr. Parker, myself or Sanke to see if we can make it a bit clearer.

Because the "art" isnt the one havin to fight in the street.

This is not in line with what you said to me in an earlier post. You mentioned it was training in your art that gave you the confidence to handle various street situations. If you mean everytime you get into a fight, you don't summon "TKD TSD MDK" (as listed on your profile) to battle for you then sure. I'm glad you aren't saying real world fights are like Yu-Gi-Oh or Pokemon. But if you use techniques you've learnt in your art during a street situation (whether it's a stance, verbal de-escalation, evasion, distancing or whatever) then some aspect of your art is fighting in the street at that moment. As I've said before as well, the way we train is slightly different it seems. With myself, training my art isn't to keep me alive in the street, that's what the modern self defence side of things are for. Even then, it's not to fight for the sake of fighting. It's getting home safe and doing whatever that takes. BEST BEST BEST case scenario is: pick up on trouble, move away and avoid trouble, leave, go elsewhere. That's it. No fighting, no shouting, no pushing and shoving, just avoid and move on.

Speaking of making no sense... How does that answer the question, or have anything to do with training for street fighting? And why would an abstract concept of combat training have to fight in the street in the first place?
If I'm getting what you're saying, the more 'traditional' methods of teaching aren't geared up for self defence training at all, so if you're arguing that a more traditional way of teaching is better, then no, not for everything.
That's if I'm even reading it right, it's quite difficult to follow what you're going on about.

The phrasing there is a bit odd chief Ignoring the first part up to the comma though, agreed! Traditional stuff is great as we both know but it has it's time and place and that is not present time street violence... That being said, I would say it is important to realise how much influence the traditional has on the modern. I mean the modern had to be built off something and have adapted in order for it to have the title "modern" right? If nothing else, take the training we did on Wednesday morning when we were drilling knife defences. You put me under pressure, I blanked on the actual techniques taught in class and instead what came out was a variant on a traditional takedown and finish. If there was no traditional training that I believed to be powerful enough in that situation and I blanked on the modern stuff, all I would have had left would have been the freeze response... not pretty at the best of times, let alone against a knife

 

[Burnse]

Seriously?
How bout next time you keep it movin?!




IDK what you been told but the police of Japan primary trainin is in karate and Aikido but truefully.....I really dont care what they do.


English, please. TOS and all that....


Thats why I said "Jus how I feel." If you know I have a "particular" view WTH you commentin for?
You make no sense.


Because the "art" isnt the one havin to fight in the street.

With all due respect your style of writing in this post conjures the image of one of my hens fluffing itself up and bobbing her head. Was your intention to pick a fight or let off some steam? Because you didn't really bring any new information or even really rebutt the post you are quoting. You just made excuses and attacked the poster. I know in forums it seems like that's all people do but they usually have the decency to veil it and back it up with some form of evidence or a relevant response.

P.S. Was 'Truefully" meant to be truthfully or truly?

 

[Sanke]

The phrasing there is a bit odd chief Ignoring the first part up to the comma though, agreed! Traditional stuff is great as we both know but it has it's time and place and that is not present time street violence... That being said, I would say it is important to realise how much influence the traditional has on the modern. I mean the modern had to be built off something and have adapted in order for it to have the title "modern" right? If nothing else, take the training we did on Wednesday morning when we were drilling knife defences. You put me under pressure, I blanked on the actual techniques taught in class and instead what came out was a variant on a traditional takedown and finish. If there was no traditional training that I believed to be powerful enough in that situation and I blanked on the modern stuff, all I would have had left would have been the freeze response... not pretty at the best of times, let alone against a knife

Haha, yeah haven't always been the best at phrasing... but you got what I was saying in the end
For the rest, agreed, traditional training is fantastic, it informs the modern and instils tactics and strategies that are more than applicable for self-defence.
But it's just not the perfect training method for every situation. No one method is. Each method has it's ups and downs, and is best suited to the environment and realities that it was designed for in the first place.
And yeah, last thing in the world you want is to freeze up when confronted by a knife... the results would not be pretty...

 

[Supra Vijai]

But it's just not the perfect training method for every situation. No one method is. Each method has it's ups and downs, and is best suited to the environment and realities that it was designed for in the first place.

Nice and concise Just to add to it though (cause we all know I like to be a bit long winded at times), the same is true of the broader "arts" as well. No one art is perfect. They all worked in their own time, for their own purposes but they all have pros and cons. That said, to me at least, training one art with the attitude or approach of another (i.e: training Western boxing with the attitude and teaching style of Wing Chun; or as Herc mentioned, training TKD with a Japanese style of teaching) really kinda misses the point and detracts from everything the primary art has to offer in the first place.

 

[Chris Parker]

Seriously?
How bout next time you keep it movin?!

Yeah, you seem to have missed out on the excitement that has been moved to another thread, but how about I correct blatant mistakes when posted by people who have no idea what they're talking about instead? Like here.

IDK what you been told but the police of Japan primary trainin is in karate and Aikido but truefully.....I really dont care what they do.

You were discussing Kendo as having no "real world" fighting benefit. I countered that with examples of people who train in it for that specific reason, as opposed to your inaccurate assumption that everyone training Kendo are doing it only as a fun hobby.

Oh, and you're wrong, by the way. I don't know what you've been told, but you're a fair bit off base.

Thats why I said "Jus how I feel." If you know I have a "particular" view WTH you commentin for?
You make no sense.

You presented your particular view as the only way things are, a way that has universal application, that everyone needs to adhere to. I was pointing out that it wasn't universal, it wasn't the only way things are done, and it doesn't apply to everyone. As well as it being a fairly flawed and limited approach in the first place.

Because the "art" isnt the one havin to fight in the street.

So why train in one? Especially if you think they're only about having to fight in the street...