Would a single art survive in UFC?

[thetruth]

Tactics and situations change, the delivery system doesn't. Relying on a single art for self-defence is very much the act of a gambling man. Surely since self-defence would be higher risk, it would make more sense to cover all ranges rather than just training in one?

I believe many single arts cover enough of all of the ranges to cope with street self defense. For one the chances of your attacker being as well rounded as a mma are virtually zero and you can strike and gouge and do all of the wonderful things in the street that you cannot do in the ring or octagon.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I believe many single arts cover enough of all of the ranges to cope with street self defense. For one the chances of your attacker being as well rounded as a mma are virtually zero and you can strike and gouge and do all of the wonderful things in the street that you cannot do in the ring or octagon.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Your attacker doesn't have to be well rounded in order to be a problem. He just has to be good enough in the one range where you aren't comfortable.
And single arts rarely cover all ranges fully, or if they do, it tends to be in a token way.
As for gouging, have you actually practiced doing it? By which I mean, how regularly do you fully gouge an opponent?
Because if I haven't practiced and used something regularly, I'd be damn reluctant to be relying on it.

 

[thetruth]

Your attacker doesn't have to be well rounded in order to be a problem. He just has to be good enough in the one range where you aren't comfortable.
And single arts rarely cover all ranges fully, or if they do, it tends to be in a token way.
As for gouging, have you actually practiced doing it? By which I mean, how regularly do you fully gouge an opponent?
Because if I haven't practiced and used something regularly, I'd be damn reluctant to be relying on it.

Mixed martial artists are not perfectly well rounded. They all have a base from which they originally trained and then they add the other disciplines. For example Chuck Liddell is a striker who did some wrestling and I'm sure if he's ever taken down will struggle with someone well schooled in grappling. I'm sure Sobral would have tied Chuck up if he could have taken him down but his striking and wrestling were not as good as Chucks so he got knocked out. MMA doesn't cover all areas fully and mmartists are not fully comfortable in all ranges.

How regularly do fully punch an opponent in the throat? I'm guessing never but I'm damn sure it would work in the street. Just as sticking my thumb in someones eye with full intent will hurt and in the street why wouldn't you try it if it was an option? Why don't we just all practice mma and rely on grappling and blunt force trauma.

Just my opinions
Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Mixed martial artists are not perfectly well rounded. They all have a base from which they originally trained and then they add the other disciplines. For example Chuck Liddell is a striker who did some wrestling and I'm sure if he's ever taken down will struggle with someone well schooled in grappling. I'm sure Sobral would have tied Chuck up if he could have taken him down but his striking and wrestling were not as good as Chucks so he got knocked out. MMA doesn't cover all areas fully and mmartists are not fully comfortable in all ranges.

How regularly do fully punch an opponent in the throat? I'm guessing never but I'm damn sure it would work in the street. Just as sticking my thumb in someones eye with full intent will hurt and in the street why wouldn't you try it if it was an option? Why don't we just all practice mma and rely on grappling and blunt force trauma.

Just my opinions
Cheers
Sam:asian:

Chuck Liddell cross-trained in grappling so he could not be taken down easily. Thus he is no longer using a single style. Thus meaning you have no point there.
And in MMA, while you may have a range you focus on, you have to be comfortable enough in all ranges that you can deal with whatever comes up in them.
So none of that is a single style, since you have to fill the gaps.

What is your basis for believing you can punch someone in the throat if attacker? Honest answer, what is your evidence you can do it?
I've personally no wish to rely on any technique I haven't used on someone before.
Key word there, RELY. You're planning around your defence around something you haven't tested.
Im not saying I wouldn't use those techniques, only that I would not plan my defence around them.

And why not use grappling and blunt force? They work.

 

[Tez3]

The up and coming MMA fighters have trained for MMA therefore are well rounded fighters, they may, like myself also do traditional martial arts.
Why would someone with a single art want to compete in the UFC anyway? You only compete in that if you want to fight MMA. Why too does it always get around to MMA in self defence? I train MMA and I train for self defence, two different classes, two different subjects.One does help the other but they aren't the same.

 

[Rook]

Mixed martial artists are not perfectly well rounded. They all have a base from which they originally trained and then they add the other disciplines.

Some yes some no. Some of these people came to MMA very accomplished in another way of fighting, others have started from scratch.

For example Chuck Liddell is a striker who did some wrestling and I'm sure if he's ever taken down will struggle with someone well schooled in grappling.

Actually, Chuck's wrestling credentials pre_MMA were stronger than his striking ones. Liddell was a 4-year division 1 wrestler, a California state champion, and did very well at the national level. He also has a purple belt in BJJ.

I'm sure Sobral would have tied Chuck up if he could have taken him down but his striking and wrestling were not as good as Chucks so he got knocked out.

Very possible. He would have had to keep him there too.

MMA doesn't cover all areas fully and mmartists are not fully comfortable in all ranges.

Not really. Having a prefered range is not incompatible with being competent in all ranges.

How regularly do fully punch an opponent in the throat?

Actually, its not that rare that people train like that. You would be suprised at how little effect it actually has.

I'm guessing never but I'm damn sure it would work in the street.

Perhaps you should test your guess in the gym before you rely on it.

Just as sticking my thumb in someones eye with full intent will hurt and in the street why wouldn't you try it if it was an option?

If you can get your thumb to his eye, and if it is legally within bounds. If you watch the GIA tapes, you will see over and over people try and fail to use their deadly eyepokes. It never works once. In all of the early Vale Tudos, the AFCs, etc there were no restrictions, and yet no one managed to pull it off.

Why don't we just all practice mma and rely on grappling and blunt force trauma?

Thats a good question. Many people have other interests than unarmed fighting.

 

[Odin]

Chuck Liddell cross-trained in grappling so he could not be taken down easily. Thus he is no longer using a single style. Thus meaning you have no point there.
And in MMA, while you may have a range you focus on, you have to be comfortable enough in all ranges that you can deal with whatever comes up in them.
So none of that is a single style, since you have to fill the gaps.

What is your basis for believing you can punch someone in the throat if attacker? Honest answer, what is your evidence you can do it?
I've personally no wish to rely on any technique I haven't used on someone before.
Key word there, RELY. You're planning around your defence around something you haven't tested.
Im not saying I wouldn't use those techniques, only that I would not plan my defence around them.

And why not use grappling and blunt force? They work.

I'll have to agree with you there, im fed up of hearing ''i would simply do this this and this' comments when truth be told fighting is far from simple, if you havent actually practiced doing something until its instinctive i wouldnt rely on being able to do it in a self defence situation off hand...after all your attacker is hardly going to run up to you first and say ''hey mate, when you turn the corner im going to jump out and mug you, im just letting you know know so your prepared'' the more fighting situations your in the more prepared you are for a fight.

and im my opinion MMA is very useful for self defence.

 

[Shogun]

I'm sure Sobral would have tied Chuck up if he could have taken him down but his striking and wrestling were not as good as Chucks so he got knocked out.

I've said this before, but Sobral is one of the best wrestlers in the UFC. He took down Travis Wiuff several times in their match. he is a brazilian National champ, and has put serious thought into training for the olympics. His wrestling is WAY better than chuck's. BUT, that being said, he didn't play the right game. chuck's game is to counterpunch, and sobral kept pressuring the takedown.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I'll have to agree with you there, im fed up of hearing ''i would simply do this this and this' comments when truth be told fighting is far from simple, if you havent actually practiced doing something until its instinctive i wouldnt rely on being able to do it in a self defence situation off hand...after all your attacker is hardly going to run up to you first and say ''hey mate, when you turn the corner im going to jump out and mug you, im just letting you know know so your prepared'' the more fighting situations your in the more prepared you are for a fight.

and im my opinion MMA is very useful for self defence.

The delivery systems are, but you still have to drill it a bit for different situations. Tactics and situations change, but the delivery system remains the same. You just need to learn how to adapt them. Which doesn't take that much effort anyway. Learn how to drop them and then run very fast.
Huzzah.

 

[Odin]

I've said this before, but Sobral is one of the best wrestlers in the UFC. He took down Travis Wiuff several times in their match. he is a brazilian National champ, and has put serious thought into training for the olympics. His wrestling is WAY better than chuck's. BUT, that being said, he didn't play the right game. chuck's game is to counterpunch, and sobral kept pressuring the takedown.

to be honest sobral made only one error in that fight, if you remember he caught chuck with a hard blow and then tried to capitilze and rush in but got caught stepping in and put to sleep...it was one of those things nothing to do with sobral's skill.

 

[thetruth]

Chuck Liddell cross-trained in grappling so he could not be taken down easily. Thus he is no longer using a single style. Thus meaning you have no point there.
And in MMA, while you may have a range you focus on, you have to be comfortable enough in all ranges that you can deal with whatever comes up in them.
So none of that is a single style, since you have to fill the gaps.

What is your basis for believing you can punch someone in the throat if attacker? Honest answer, what is your evidence you can do it?
I've personally no wish to rely on any technique I haven't used on someone before.
Key word there, RELY. You're planning around your defence around something you haven't tested.
Im not saying I wouldn't use those techniques, only that I would not plan my defence around them.

And why not use grappling and blunt force? They work.

So what you are saying is that mixed martial arts is the only way to go and if you can't test something in a tournament and make it work then it won't and if a technique is too dangerous to test with full contact then it isn't worth using in the street. That basically throws most martial arts out of the window. Do you break peoples arms in training to know an armlock can break an arm? If not why would you rely on such things? Lastly Blunt force trauma is fine but then it solely comes down to the amount of power one can generate with their strikes. The larger the person, the more power hence they have a greater chance of success. So if I was to fight a larger attacker and defended myself with just blunt force trauma my chance of success would be a lot less than if I employed dirtier tactics which you suggest that if I haven't tried them with full contact in training they are not worth using.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[thetruth]

I'll have to agree with you there, im fed up of hearing ''i would simply do this this and this' comments when truth be told fighting is far from simple, if you havent actually practiced doing something until its instinctive i wouldnt rely on being able to do it in a self defence situation off hand...after all your attacker is hardly going to run up to you first and say ''hey mate, when you turn the corner im going to jump out and mug you, im just letting you know know so your prepared'' the more fighting situations your in the more prepared you are for a fight.

and im my opinion MMA is very useful for self defence.

I never said mma wasn't useful for self defense, I am just defending the usefulness of other arts. The UFC has caused people to soley believe that mma is the way to go for self defense and other arts are no good just because of what they see in the controlled environment of the octagon.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[zDom]

...

(*in response to "How regularly do fully punch an opponent in the throat?", said

Actually, its not that rare that people train like that. You would be suprised at how little effect it actually has.

...

If you can get your thumb to his eye, and if it is legally within bounds. If you watch the GIA tapes, you will see over and over people try and fail to use their deadly eyepokes. It never works once. In all of the early Vale Tudos, the AFCs, etc there were no restrictions, and yet no one managed to pull it off.

Rook,

a) I've SEEN people get hit (accidently) in the throat — it DOES have an effect. Ends up stopping the match until they are able to recover and breathe again.

Study physiology much? Any anatomy? IF they are able to get the sternocleidomastoid tensed to shield the throat, the effects can be effectively mitigated... but that is a big "if."

Ask a physician about the effects of direct blunt trauma to the throat.

b) I've seen at least TWO recent news stories about how people have survived creature attacks by (drum roll please...) PUTTING THEIR THUMBS in the eye of the attacking creature!

If it can stop a Great White Shark and a Mountain Lion (don't make me google and post the evidence, because it IS out there), then I am damned sure it will stop a human attacker.

And lets not forget Tito "seeing black" from Chuck's thumb to the eye, which effectively ended THAT fight, eh?

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

So what you are saying is that mixed martial arts is the only way to go and if you can't test something in a tournament and make it work then it won't and if a technique is too dangerous to test with full contact then it isn't worth using in the street. That basically throws most martial arts out of the window. Do you break peoples arms in training to know an armlock can break an arm? If not why would you rely on such things? Lastly Blunt force trauma is fine but then it solely comes down to the amount of power one can generate with their strikes. The larger the person, the more power hence they have a greater chance of success. So if I was to fight a larger attacker and defended myself with just blunt force trauma my chance of success would be a lot less than if I employed dirtier tactics which you suggest that if I haven't tried them with full contact in training they are not worth using.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

You really have no interest in actually listening here do you? You're too hung up on what you THINK im saying to actually read it properly.
Observer the simple piece of logic.
If you are attempting to create a plan, do you base that plan on a tactic you know is reliable, or a tactic you have never tested?
You obviously enough, use what is reliable as the foundation.
The unreliable, you would only use if absolutely neccessary.

I NEVER ONCE said not to use tactics that do not occur in tournaments. I said that you should not BASE your plans and tactics around something you've never tested. Instead, you use the reliable as the foundation, and then from there on use whatever the situation demands.

But if you try to start off with a foundation you don't know if you can rely on, you're tactically shooting yourself in the foot, before the first punch is even thrown.

Now, before you go and take this out of context, I'm going to make something even clearer if possible, although Ive been pretty clear on this so far.
Im not saying you should not use certain techniques, Im saying you shouldn't RELY on them.
See that word there -RELY, whole key point of this post.

And as for fighting larger opponents, THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS.
Fighting dirty doesn't negate their size and strength, unless you've had an AWFUL lot of practice at it. So rather than making a plan out of something you can't rely on, build up the abilities you can test and train, and then add the other dirty fighting skills on top of those.

I look forward to your twisting of my words.

(Sorry all if I seem irate, a customer at the call centre just made several comments regarding what he'd like to do with my mother. The joys of tech support)

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Rook,

a) I've SEEN people get hit (accidently) in the throat — it DOES have an effect. Ends up stopping the match until they are able to recover and breathe again.

Study physiology much? Any anatomy? IF they are able to get the sternocleidomastoid tensed to shield the throat, the effects can be effectively mitigated... but that is a big "if."

Ask a physician about the effects of direct blunt trauma to the throat.

b) I've seen at least TWO recent news stories about how people have survived creature attacks by (drum roll please...) PUTTING THEIR THUMBS in the eye of the attacking creature!

If it can stop a Great White Shark and a Mountain Lion (don't make me google and post the evidence, because it IS out there), then I am damned sure it will stop a human attacker.

And lets not forget Tito "seeing black" from Chuck's thumb to the eye, which effectively ended THAT fight, eh?

Once again, this has little to do with possibilty so much as reliabilty.
A person might be able to kill a mountain lion by putting out its eye with their thumbs.
But if you had to plan how to kill one, would you plan on doing with a sniper rifle or with your thumbs?
Thats what we're doing when we train, we're making a plan.
Sorry if I seem rambling.

 

[MJS]

Tactics and situations change, the delivery system doesn't. Relying on a single art for self-defence is very much the act of a gambling man. Surely since self-defence would be higher risk, it would make more sense to cover all ranges rather than just training in one?

I agree with this. I like what you said about the tactics vs the delivery. Many arts address various aspects such as weapons, grappling, etc. However, for myself, I take it a step further and expand on those areas. I've always been an advocate of training for the worst case.

Mike

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I agree with this. I like what you said about the tactics vs the delivery. Many arts address various aspects such as weapons, grappling, etc. However, for myself, I take it a step further and expand on those areas. I've always been an advocate of training for the worst case.

Mike

Yep, I would to. Not even out of any belief or fear it will happen, but out of a love of the actual science and training.
I find it strange the way in alot of striking styles especially, there have been recent developments in "anti-grappling" which seem to leave a lot of holes.
Surely in order to understand how to defeat a grappler, you're have to understand how to grapple?

 

[MJS]

So what you are saying is that mixed martial arts is the only way to go and if you can't test something in a tournament and make it work then it won't and if a technique is too dangerous to test with full contact then it isn't worth using in the street. That basically throws most martial arts out of the window.
Cheers
Sam:asian:

IMHO, one does not need to enter a MMA event to test what works and what does not. Alot of it is going to come down to how each person trains. I'll use eye shots, seeing that that is usually a hot topic. If someone just stands there, training the eye shot from a static position, how are they going to apply it when its time to move? The same thing for punches and kicks. Everything looks fine and dandy without moving, but add in some movement and it changes things up alot. The eye shot can be trained with protective gear and movement. I've done it, people that I train with have done it and I'm sure we're not the only ones that do it.

People tend to view certain shots in a negative way, usually referring to them as 'deadly shots', but what they're failing to see, is that I'm not saying its a deadly shot, anymore than I'm saying a punch to the face is. I'm not a follower of the 1 hit, 1 kill mentality. But, everyone has reflexes. If I throw out a shot and it causes the person to raise their hands, move their head back, take a step back or whatever, even if I didn't make contact, I still got a reaction, which I can take advantage of with something else. Its no different than throwing combos in boxing. Someone may throw a jab to the head to get that reaction so they can hit the body, which was their intended target from the beginning.

Like I always say, it all comes down to how we train.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Rook,

a) I've SEEN people get hit (accidently) in the throat — it DOES have an effect. Ends up stopping the match until they are able to recover and breathe again.

Study physiology much? Any anatomy? IF they are able to get the sternocleidomastoid tensed to shield the throat, the effects can be effectively mitigated... but that is a big "if."

Ask a physician about the effects of direct blunt trauma to the throat.

b) I've seen at least TWO recent news stories about how people have survived creature attacks by (drum roll please...) PUTTING THEIR THUMBS in the eye of the attacking creature!

If it can stop a Great White Shark and a Mountain Lion (don't make me google and post the evidence, because it IS out there), then I am damned sure it will stop a human attacker.

And lets not forget Tito "seeing black" from Chuck's thumb to the eye, which effectively ended THAT fight, eh?

2 thumbs up for this post!!!

 

[MJS]

Yep, I would to. Not even out of any belief or fear it will happen, but out of a love of the actual science and training.
I find it strange the way in alot of striking styles especially, there have been recent developments in "anti-grappling" which seem to leave a lot of holes.
Surely in order to understand how to defeat a grappler, you're have to understand how to grapple?

Exactly!! Nothing wrong with taking a grappling defense, getting together with a grappler and seeing how well it works. Perhaps the grappler can improve on the defense. One of the Black Belts at the school I go to has a Purple belt in BJJ under Roy Harris. Its a good resource as we can work certain defenses from the Kenpo perspective and get feedback from a grappler.