World population control?

[Bob Hubbard]

Logan's Run had an idea, frag you at 21. Would make it harder to pay off those student loans though.....

 

[MA-Caver]

No Caver. I have no issue with it. Me and Andy had a discussion on this subject not so long ago, and I was making reference back to that. I expect him to get it, probably not anyone else.

It wasn't meant as a challenge fella. :lol:

Logan's Run had an idea, frag you at 21. Would make it harder to pay off those student loans though.....

I think it was at 30 you got fragged and as entertainment for all those who haven't reached that magical number. So you still got time to pay off the student loans.

 

[MBuzzy]

MBuzzy, the Tragedy of the Commons is not nearly as true as its authors and supporters would like you to believe. Their research - and I use the word very loosely - was quite tendentious. They were tying to prove that common-property resources just wouldn't work and that radical privatization was the only solution.

Fortunately, it doesn't really work that way.

Consider the original commons in England before the Enclosure Acts. The contention was that everyone would have an incentive to put extra sheep on the common land giving himself more sheep at the cost of degrading the pasture. Of course, a single owner - the local Lord - would behave efficiently. So it was only right for him to take over the commons.

In fact, it turned out that stockmen had a very good idea of how many sheep could be raised on a plot. And later research shows that the people who used the land implemented very effective methods to make sure people were well-behaved. The local Lord was actually less efficient about raising sheep and generally turned farmers into tenants, threw them off the land to starve or engaged in rent-seeking behavior (economic-speak for "I have a monopoly and will put the screws to you) with no regard to actual productivity. His job was land owner, not sheep raiser.

The same theory has been applied to everything water to clean air to plant varieties to the genes in your own personal cells. The record for radical privatization has been pretty dismal. Oh, it's made a lot of money for a few people. But a very good case could be - and has - been made that the value thus added has been more than outstripped by the increase in transaction costs, the effect of rent-seeking and increased barriers to entry reducing competition.

While his research may have not been exactly right, the theory still stands. The basic tenet that a shared resource will eventually be exhausted stands. If there is a limited amount of any resource and everyone needs, it stands to reason that eventually that resource will run out. The key that people have learned and must continue learning is that we have to regulate the use of resources in order to KEEP them from dying out. He was demonstrating that point. It is the regulation that keeps the resources from being exhausted.

Another one of his points is that technology can improve the situation (technology in a way, including regulation..it can be argued that technology is any time that there is some extra human interaction to try to change the normal reactions of the system), but it can only delay it for a limited amount of time, eventually you will run into the same problem.

 

[Tez3]

People may want to read Jacqueline Kasun's The War on Population before investing a lot of time on trying to solve the "problem" of population growth.

Pax,

Chris

Go on, I give up, tell us why?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It wasn't meant as a challenge fella. :lol:


I think it was at 30 you got fragged and as entertainment for all those who haven't reached that magical number. So you still got time to pay off the student loans.

21 in the book, 30 in the movie.

 

[MA-Caver]

21 in the book, 30 in the movie.

Ah... ok... I hadn't read the book. :asian:

 

[Ray]

I'm surprised the official Chinese Family Planning Policy hasn't been mentioned.

 

[theletch1]

I'm surprised the official Chinese Family Planning Policy hasn't been mentioned.

It has, in the OP and in a couple of other places in the thread. There are some huge problems with the way the Chinese have theirs set up but the concept could be one angle of it. Does anyone remember the Sci-fi movie where it was illegal to have more than one kid and to travel you had to go through a "scanner" to see if you were pregnant? I can't remember the title of the movie... those who'd had/attempted to have more than one child were called "breeders" and were sentenced to prison.

 

[tellner]

Oh, we'll hover around carrying capacity. The question is how far we've overshot and how traumatic the correction will be. I would be happy to personally spay and neuter every one of the "Quiverfull Christians" and "morally correct number of children" Catholic, "as many as Our Heavenly Father gives us" Mormon, rabbit-like Haredi and "Allah's victory comes from our women's wombs" Muslim equivalents. Bare handed if necessary.

The Chinese method sorta kinda worked. But when it was relaxed the population didn't suddenly shoot up. That's because - and the demographers all agree - Chinese women went to work. They got educated. And a hell of a lot of them decided that marrying Chinese men was less attractive than having their own money and autonomy.

We have a choice. We can try to do things rationally, plan for the future, ignore superstition and make our best stab at solving the problems under conditions of uncertainty.

Or we can do what we've been doing for the last twenty eight years. We can ram our fingers into our ears, scream "LA! LA! LA! LA! LA! I CAN'T HEEEAAARRRR YOU!" and just have faith that Jeebus and the Holy Sacred Infallible Market will magically make everything come out right. We've seen how well that worked. America's stature in the world, its thriving economy, the honesty of its financial markets, the rising standard of living, the unchallenged Rule of Law, and the state of our civil liberties all attest to it.

 

[Ray]

I would be happy to personally spay and neuter every one of the "Quiverfull Christians" and "morally correct number of children" Catholic, "as many as Our Heavenly Father gives us" Mormon, rabbit-like Haredi and "Allah's victory comes from our women's wombs" Muslim equivalents. Bare handed if necessary.

Please bring your bigoted bare hands to the abode of this Mormon. Whether we have zero or a hundred children is our own business, not the business of the Church. Catholics that I know practice a similar philosophy, whether it be their doctrine or not I don't know.

 

[tellner]

Settle down their, friend. I'm no religious bigot. In an age where we've overshot the carrying capacity of our planet everyone who believes in a duty to breed to capacity is criminally irresponsible. It doesn't matter what religion they use as a justification.

I have exactly the same beef with anyone's religion as I do with my own. You'll note that I included my own people, Jews in the list. Hell, I included most of the members of my own synagogue and even my own beloved rabbi. You can't get any more evenhanded than that.

 

[Ray]

Settle down their, friend. I'm no religious bigot. In an age where we've overshot the carrying capacity of our planet everyone who believes in a duty to breed to capacity is criminally irresponsible. It doesn't matter what religion they use as a justification.

I have exactly the same beef with anyone's religion as I do with my own. You'll note that I included my own people, Jews in the list. Hell, I included most of the members of my own synagogue and even my own beloved rabbi. You can't get any more evenhanded than that.

Oy vay, I'm such a schmuck!

I feel very tempted to issue a warm-hearted apology for mis-understanding the point of your previous post, but it would be so out of character me.

 

[MA-Caver]

Oy vay, I'm such a schmuck!

I feel very tempted to issue a warm-hearted apology for mis-understanding the point of your previous post, but it would be so out of character me.

G'wan and do it anyway... the Lord will love ya for it. :asian:
Besides he requires it of you.

 

[<_>]

So, I was reading the thread in the Locker Room about the Arkansas couple that has 18 kids and noticed a post by a member stating something along the lines of increasing population and dwindling resources on the planet. That got me to thinking...

The population of the world is growing at an exponetial rate and many resources aren't renewable. Many of the ones that are renewable aren't being renewed. How do we find a balance? Should the world as a whole attempt to curb it's usage? Sure. Will it? Probably not. So, the next question is population. Should the world enact a one child policy like China's? What do ya'll think of the Voluntary Human Extinction movement? What's a good world population number?

war = population control

 

[theletch1]

war = population control

I put forth that very postulation a few posts ago. My question there is this. War, as we've known it in centuries past has ended the lives of tens of thousands of human beings in a relatively short period of time. The world has moved on to an extent. Wars now are, or are attempted to be, as surgical as possible. The carpet bombings of Berlin and Dresdin and Tokyo simply aren't going to happen. The MAD of the Cold War is, for the most part, a bygone thing. While many countries have nuclear capabilities the idea of world destruction with them isn't at the forefront of too many minds. So, while war MAY control population in a limited way I just don't see it limiting population in the way it has in centuries past.

The other side of that would be biological warfare that gets out of control.

 

[Big Don]

I read somewhere that an old military toast was "to bloody wars and Sickly seasons" because those were the two sure ways to promotions.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I read somewhere that an old military toast was "to bloody wars and Sickly seasons" because those were the two sure ways to promotions.

"Here's to a sudden plague and bloody war!" British I believe.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Settle down their, friend. I'm no religious bigot. In an age where we've overshot the carrying capacity of our planet everyone who believes in a duty to breed to capacity is criminally irresponsible. It doesn't matter what religion they use as a justification.

I have exactly the same beef with anyone's religion as I do with my own. You'll note that I included my own people, Jews in the list. Hell, I included most of the members of my own synagogue and even my own beloved rabbi. You can't get any more evenhanded than that.

Oh, we'll hover around carrying capacity. The question is how far we've overshot and how traumatic the correction will be. I would be happy to personally spay and neuter every one of the "Quiverfull Christians" and "morally correct number of children" Catholic, "as many as Our Heavenly Father gives us" Mormon, rabbit-like Haredi and "Allah's victory comes from our women's wombs" Muslim equivalents. Bare handed if necessary.

The Chinese method sorta kinda worked. But when it was relaxed the population didn't suddenly shoot up. That's because - and the demographers all agree - Chinese women went to work. They got educated. And a hell of a lot of them decided that marrying Chinese men was less attractive than having their own money and autonomy.

We have a choice. We can try to do things rationally, plan for the future, ignore superstition and make our best stab at solving the problems under conditions of uncertainty.

Or we can do what we've been doing for the last twenty eight years. We can ram our fingers into our ears, scream "LA! LA! LA! LA! LA! I CAN'T HEEEAAARRRR YOU!" and just have faith that Jeebus and the Holy Sacred Infallible Market will magically make everything come out right. We've seen how well that worked. America's stature in the world, its thriving economy, the honesty of its financial markets, the rising standard of living, the unchallenged Rule of Law, and the state of our civil liberties all attest to it.

You've missed quite a few with your broad stroking pen I think. Perhaps you should include some Morish Dancers? Fancy a couple of 7th Day Adventers might need a blow too while your at it. Who'll pay for it all I want to know. Probably need a tax on fornication, sixpence a stroke or something daft I expect. Really though, if your intent is to offer a solution I think you've issed your mark, however, if it's to piss off as many people as you can, well, I think you've bloody well succeeded. One might suggest you choose your words better in the future, lest Ploppy the Jailer serve you some last meal sausages.

Wibble.

As to world population, I would expect it will work itself out. Give enough kids Ipods and Iphones and Ithis and Ithat and they'll weed themselves out of the gene pool, fat little lumps living on fast food and energy drinks, who needs Logan? Just make their fat little selves run, they'll be popping like a balloon in an iron maiden, heart attacks and strokes for everyone.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

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[Cryozombie]

Does anyone remember the Sci-fi movie where it was illegal to have more than one kid and to travel you had to go through a "scanner" to see if you were pregnant? I can't remember the title of the movie... those who'd had/attempted to have more than one child were called "breeders" and were sentenced to prison.

I believe that was "Fortress" with Christopher Lambert