Working out outside of the dojo

[jobo]

I am retired too. I have 6 dogs to walk, so I do a lot of walking. What kind of dog do you have?

difficult to describe, its Jack Russel themed with long legs it looks a bit like this only taller and 5hiner and sleeker

 

[Bruce7]

difficult to describe, its Jack Russel themed with long legs it looks a bit like this only taller and 5hiner and sleeker

Good looking dog, bet he is smart.

I have a 12 year old blood hound who smells and does not move much. 140lb
He was a beauty in his prime smelled good to, like a horse.

I have a 3 year old half Vizsla, half Whippet very fast. 46lb
Bad on leash, pulls want to go.

I have a 2 1/2 year old Lab I found at the
frisbee park when he was about 3 months old. 90lb
Lab great on leash unless there is a squirrel or rabbit,
Then he is very hard to hold.

I have a 3 year old medium size poodle, mother of the Yorkipoos. 18lb

I have two 2 year old half poodle , half Yorkshire Terrier,
I guess you call them Yorkipoos, very cute. 14, 18 lb

Keeping up with my dogs is a full time job.

 

[dvcochran]

no weight loss through exercise is tried heavily to heart rate, walking three miles in an hour is a leisurelstroller, a moderately fit person shouldn't even have an elevated heart rate at all at that pac, now go walking up a fell or a small mountain and your talking. theres people jogging that arnt burning more that a moderate walk, but actually running, long stride,both feet off the ground at once is a different proposition

it's clear that your finding reasons not to do it, being over weight is not a reason to not go running, buy running shoes, pick a riut that about a mile and walk / run it, as long as the time drops on each repeat then your making good progress, you can do the same on your bike, but make it 5 miles.

you don't need a gym, there's a million body weight exercise that are just as good, even if you do them at the gym, if the machines are busy at the gym, use the free weights theres never a queue for the 50lbs dumbells, a kettle bell are a couple of square meters of space and your good

Your argument is from a standpoint of results/minimum length of time. This is not the highest level of importance for @Orion Nebula . Things like staying healthy and uninjured enough to continuing working out in any form is much more important. Remember, he is a bigger guy who has to be smart about what he does with the additional weight he is carrying. For example, why don't you strap on a 150 weight vest first thing in the morning, every morning for a month. Do everything you do through the course of a normal day including your current workout. Then add some or all of the exercises you mentioned and see how your joints, muscles, and motivation hold up. Accelerating joint wear is simply a stupid thing to do.
What I heard was he has seen gains in endurance and strength and is ready for the next evolution. He asked questions on this forum and got a plethora of varying answers. Some too extreme on both ends. Hopefully he will continue to seek out sources of information to determine a workable plan.

 

[jobo]

Your argument is from a standpoint of results/minimum length of time. This is not the highest level of importance for @Orion Nebula . Things like staying healthy and uninjured enough to continuing working out in any form is much more important. Remember, he is a bigger guy who has to be smart about what he does with the additional weight he is carrying. For example, why don't you strap on a 150 weight vest first thing in the morning, every morning for a month. Do everything you do through the course of a normal day including your current workout. Then add some or all of the exercises you mentioned and see how your joints, muscles, and motivation hold up. Accelerating joint wear is simply a stupid thing to do.
What I heard was he has seen gains in endurance and strength and is ready for the next evolution. He asked questions on this forum and got a plethora of varying answers. Some too extreme on both ends. Hopefully he will continue to seek out sources of information to determine a workable plan.

the only think worse for joints than exercises ING them is not exercising them, any notable improvement in fit Ness is obtained by progressive overload, with the key requirement being on overload . so that's faster, longer heavier dependent on what you are doing otherwise you will get no where fast or more likely at all
NB I strap a 20lbs vest on, working my way up to150

 

[Orion Nebula]

no weight loss through exercise is tried heavily to heart rate, walking three miles in an hour is a leisurelstroller, a moderately fit person shouldn't even have an elevated heart rate at all at that pac, now go walking up a fell or a small mountain and your talking. theres people jogging that arnt burning more that a moderate walk, but actually running, long stride,both feet off the ground at once is a different proposition

it's clear that your finding reasons not to do it, being over weight is not a reason to not go running, buy running shoes, pick a riut that about a mile and walk / run it, as long as the time drops on each repeat then your making good progress, you can do the same on your bike, but make it 5 miles.

you don't need a gym, there's a million body weight exercise that are just as good, even if you do them at the gym, if the machines are busy at the gym, use the free weights theres never a queue for the 50lbs dumbells, a kettle bell are a couple of square meters of space and your good

Walking has been documented in many studies to lead to weight loss, and you are incorrect that a slow pace of 3 mph doesn't elevate heart rate. For someone in a normal weight range, it's probably true. For someone with a lot of weight to lose, it takes a lot more effort to move. I can understand why you'd have that idea - I did too until I bought a Fitbit. When I go for a leisurely walk, it doesn't feel like my heart rate is very high, but it generally goes up to around 110-120 bmp. In case you're wondering how accurate the Fitbit is, I have compared it against the heart rate sensor at the doctor's office as well as manually taking my heart rate and it's within 2 or 3 bmp. However, you are correct that running burns more calories. I looked this up and found a few studies that compared running vs. walking a set distance and running always burned more. But as I said, I didn't know if my original statement was true or not because I don't even remember where I read it.

Also, I'm finding reasons not to start running yet because I've tried it and had knee and ankle pain. I wasn't even doing a significant amount of running - I was doing a couch to 5k style program that alternates running and walking. It's also well documented that overweight people are more prone to injuries while running. Are there overweight runners that don't have injuries? Of course, and I've read about runners heavier than me. However, I'm not interested in taking that risk right now, especially since I can do lots of other things that aren't likely to trash my knees.

This is actually easier said than done for a lot of people. We tend to hold our breath as it gives us a feeling that we are able to move more securely and greater power however it rather inefficient to move this way as you have no doubt found out. There are several things you can do to assist with breathing and relaxation when moving. The first thing you can do is to release a little air every time you complete a movement/strike/block. The best example I can think of is when a boxer lets out air every time he hits a bag. The second thing you can do is relax your shoulders. I suspect they are pretty tense as you are moving and holding your breath. Consciously relaxing the shoulders will help you relax your entire body. Stay relaxed in between each movement and only tense at the moment of impact (ie: punch/kick or block). Good luck.

Ah yep, I can definitely relate to this. I've found that at home if I train I used to be fine, could power through everything, but when it came to training in class, I would get so much more exhausted, much quicker. It's been quite a process learning to train with less tension (still learning!), but yes you'll find that training with excess tension and shallow breaths will fatigue you alot quicker.

What @Yokazuna514 said was great, especially the shoulders, so just be more mindful that you're exhaling with the techniques, and very importantly breathing deep down into your lower stomach as opposed to chest breathing.

It's only natural to be a bit tense when learning new things, as you're trying to get it perfect, but as you learn it and become more comfortable, you can work on consciously relaxing more

Thank you both for the advice. My sensei said similar things, but as you've pointed out, it's easier said than done. Hopefully as I develop better coordination and need to think less about my form and movement, I'll be able to better focus on things like breathing and relaxing my shoulders.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which research is that?

Why is he injuring himself?

I didn't say he was injuring himself. I was suggesting a path that reduces the chance of injury as he gets ramped up.

If you like, I'll try to dig up one or two of the articles I'm thinking of. I don't keep great notes on sources, so it'll take me a bit to find them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Last night, I had a really interesting class. The school is small and some of the students are pretty inconsistent with coming in. It's also the time of year for sickness. So I was the only student last night. It was great! I've never had one on one training before like that.

One of the conclusions we came to was that part of the reason I get tired fast is that I don't breathe right. For example, there was a long combo that I was struggling with and I was so fixated on trying to do it right and so tense that I was holding my breath through the whole set of moves. So in addition to improving fitness, I need to relax and little and breathe!

I remember reading (maybe a year or two ago, though it may have been an older article) that part of the early improvements we get with cardio is simply learning to control our reaction to needing more air. Apparently it's pretty common for us to breathe poorly when we feel that first need, which increases the feeling of need, which makes us breathe worse, etc. The context of the article was talking about getting past the first mile when getting into running, and understanding that the "out of breath" we feel at that point is usually just not controlling the breath well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

that's another one of those myths, running is no harder on your body than walking, theres greater contact with the ground but less frequently for any given distance, so they more or less equal out and keeping the distance short and the intensity high restricts the number of contacts you make, and run on grass if you want to restrict it even more.

if you got pre existing injuries that lead to pain, then no dont run, get a bike instead

I'd be interested in seeing an explanation of that, Jobo. In running (as you said, where both feet leave the ground), there's a harder impact, which tends to wear on joints harder than the softer impact of walking. There's probably also more strain in the push stroke, but I'm skeptical whether that would be material for most folks, even over thousands of miles.

 

[jobo]

I'd be interested in seeing an explanation of that, Jobo. In running (as you said, where both feet leave the ground), there's a harder impact, which tends to wear on joints harder than the softer impact of walking. There's probably also more strain in the push stroke, but I'm skeptical whether that would be material for most folks, even over thousands of miles.

I did read one of the actual studies, but can5 find it now, my kindle went in the canal

however here an article that identifies the studies and gives an over view
Does Running Damage Your Knees?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I did read one of the actual studies, but can5 find it now, my kindle went in the canal

however here an article that identifies the studies and gives an over view
Does Running Damage Your Knees?

If you could find it with the Kindle, you're ahead of me, man. My ability to get back to articles sucks regardless of whether I have my Kindle or not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I did read one of the actual studies, but can5 find it now, my kindle went in the canal

however here an article that identifies the studies and gives an over view
Does Running Damage Your Knees?

I'll need to go see what the actual studies say. I have two problems with that article (the usual kinds of problems with these things). First, they seem to equate time of contact with the ground with stress levels, but it's simple enough to show that impact puts more stress on some materials than static pressure does. Second, they seem to ignore a pretty likely confounding factor when they refer to runners having a lesser incidence of osteoarthritis. I can illustrate the issue easily: I don't run much now that my knees hurt more.

My doc (a sports medicine specialist) has also stated that long runs are a bad idea with the current state of my knees. Now, it's always possible he's wrong - sometimes even the educated folks are - but until I have better information (maybe those studies behind that article), I'll go with his educated opinion over that of WebMD.

EDIT: Unfortunately, I don't see where WebMD posted their sources.

 

[jobo]

Walking has been documented in many studies to lead to weight loss, and you are incorrect that a slow pace of 3 mph doesn't elevate heart rate. For someone in a normal weight range, it's probably true. For someone with a lot of weight to lose, it takes a lot more effort to move. I can understand why you'd have that idea - I did too until I bought a Fitbit. When I go for a leisurely walk, it doesn't feel like my heart rate is very high, but it generally goes up to around 110-120 bmp. In case you're wondering how accurate the Fitbit is, I have compared it against the heart rate sensor at the doctor's office as well as manually taking my heart rate and it's within 2 or 3 bmp. However, you are correct that running burns more calories. I looked this up and found a few studies that compared running vs. walking a set distance and running always burned more. But as I said, I didn't know if my original statement was true or not because I don't even remember where I read it.

Also, I'm finding reasons not to start running yet because I've tried it and had knee and ankle pain. I wasn't even doing a significant amount of running - I was doing a couch to 5k style program that alternates running and walking. It's also well documented that overweight people are more prone to injuries while running. Are there overweight runners that don't have injuries? Of course, and I've read about runners heavier than me. However, I'm not interested in taking that risk right now, especially since I can do lots of other things that aren't likely to trash my knees.





Thank you both for the advice. My sensei said similar things, but as you've pointed out, it's easier said than done. Hopefully as I develop better coordination and need to think less about my form and movement, I'll be able to better focus on things like breathing and relaxing my shoulders.

that Info is meaning less with knowing your age and resting heart rate, but ill go out on a limb and say you max heart rate is 170bpm and you resting heart rate is close to 90, in which case it's not being over weight that's your problem it's being chronically unfit, hitting 70% of max heart rate on a gentle stroll is awe inspiringly unfit for a 80 yo and is 5he very reason you should get your bike out whilst you are still in a position to do so.

I'm surrounded by fat unfit middle aged people who all want to a) be fitter and b) loose weigh , but they can get fit as they are to fat and can't exercise the weight of as they arnt fit enough . so they do nothing but complain whilst going round and round in a logic trap, the only 5hing that's certain is 5hey will still be fat and unfit next year only fatter and unfitted than they are now, until they grasp the idea that 5hey have to actually put some effort in and lay off the donuts and beer

 

[jobo]

I'll need to go see what the actual studies say. I have two problems with that article (the usual kinds of problems with these things). First, they seem to equate time of contact with the ground with stress levels, but it's simple enough to show that impact puts more stress on some materials than static pressure does. Second, they seem to ignore a pretty likely confounding factor when they refer to runners having a lesser incidence of osteoarthritis. I can illustrate the issue easily: I don't run much now that my knees hurt more.

My doc (a sports medicine specialist) has also stated that long runs are a bad idea with the current state of my knees. Now, it's always possible he's wrong - sometimes even the educated folks are - but until I have better information (maybe those studies behind that article), I'll go with his educated opinion over that of WebMD.

EDIT: Unfortunately, I don't see where WebMD posted their sources.

but you've got dodgy knees, it doesn5 say running 8mproves them and running if your knees are all ready shot is not a good idea, that's what bikes are for

 

[jobo]

I'll need to go see what the actual studies say. I have two problems with that article (the usual kinds of problems with these things). First, they seem to equate time of contact with the ground with stress levels, but it's simple enough to show that impact puts more stress on some materials than static pressure does. Second, they seem to ignore a pretty likely confounding factor when they refer to runners having a lesser incidence of osteoarthritis. I can illustrate the issue easily: I don't run much now that my knees hurt more.

My doc (a sports medicine specialist) has also stated that long runs are a bad idea with the current state of my knees. Now, it's always possible he's wrong - sometimes even the educated folks are - but until I have better information (maybe those studies behind that article), I'll go with his educated opinion over that of WebMD.

EDIT: Unfortunately, I don't see where WebMD posted their sources.

ill have a Google tomorrow and see if I can track one down

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but you've got dodgy knees, it doesn5 say running 8mproves them and running if your knees are all ready shot is not a good idea, that's what bikes are for

No, that was my point. If the study (which they don't cite, so I can't look at it) just compared rates of arthritis between runners and non-runners, the data would have a selection bias: people with arthritis are less likely to run, so a group of runners will have less arthritis than the general population. We'd have to see how the study considered that to know if it's a problem or not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

ill have a Google tomorrow and see if I can track one down

Much appreciated.

 

[jobo]

No, that was my point. If the study (which they don't cite, so I can't look at it) just compared rates of arthritis between runners and non-runners, the data would have a selection bias: people with arthritis are less likely to run, so a group of runners will have less arthritis than the general population. We'd have to see how the study considered that to know if it's a problem or not.

they would surely be looking if runners had a higher rate 5han the general population, of which comparatively few have arthritis, so the non running sufferers will only make up small % certainly if you look at younger age groups ,,

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I did read one of the actual studies, but can5 find it now, my kindle went in the canal

however here an article that identifies the studies and gives an over view
Does Running Damage Your Knees?

Wasn't it your kindle that fell in the canal, causing you to get a second one? Did that fall in too, or am I misremembering it?

 

[jobo]

Wasn't it your kindle that fell in the canal, causing you to get a second one? Did that fall in too, or am I misremembering it?

no it was my kindle that fell in the canal causing me to buy a Samsung, the kindle however had the book mark for the study on it, hence I cant access it with out scuba gear

 

[drop bear]

Your argument is from a standpoint of results/minimum length of time. This is not the highest level of importance for @Orion Nebula . Things like staying healthy and uninjured enough to continuing working out in any form is much more important. Remember, he is a bigger guy who has to be smart about what he does with the additional weight he is carrying. For example, why don't you strap on a 150 weight vest first thing in the morning, every morning for a month. Do everything you do through the course of a normal day including your current workout. Then add some or all of the exercises you mentioned and see how your joints, muscles, and motivation hold up. Accelerating joint wear is simply a stupid thing to do.
What I heard was he has seen gains in endurance and strength and is ready for the next evolution. He asked questions on this forum and got a plethora of varying answers. Some too extreme on both ends. Hopefully he will continue to seek out sources of information to determine a workable plan.

So get the weight off.