Wong Shun Leung & Tan Sau

[guy b.]

Everyone can make more moves. I usually see it like this, if I make a move, you can make a move. When you made a move that leaves me the option to make a new move as well.

With respect this is a terrible gambling way to approach fighting. It is like taking turns rolling a die, with everyone having a different number of sides depending on physical capability. A more intelligent approach is to impose upon the opponent, forcing them to react in a predictable way, and taking advantage of that reaction.

Can you not see the simple calculation being presented by LFJ in terms of tan blocking one hand and punching with the other (50:50, you both have one hand left), vs covering with the punch and punching angle every time it is made (ups the % in your favour)?

 

[paitingman]

I can see everyone's points. And have been agreeing with everyone's posts as a silent reader of this thread.
I just want to see a video or get a clear explanation of Tan-punch or Jam-punch.

Honestly I thought it was the same as excluding punch or including punch or wedge punching or whatever, but now that LFJ has repeatedly said it is NOT that, I'm just super interested and curious as to what tan-punch looks like in action

 

[Phobius]

With respect this is a terrible gambling way to approach fighting. It is like taking turns rolling a die, with everyone having a different number of sides depending on physical capability. A more intelligent approach is to impose upon the opponent, forcing them to react in a predictable way, and taking advantage of that reaction.

Can you not see the simple calculation being presented by LFJ in terms of tan blocking one hand and punching with the other (50:50, you both have one hand left), vs covering with the punch and punching angle every time it is made (ups the % in your favour)?

None of this changes the fact that there is always a counter move.

And you are wrong, sorry to say. There is no gambling to know what those counter moves are and being prepared, as such you lead your opponent without them perhaps seeing it.

The gambling is when you believe they can do nothing.

Also no, an opponent can have both hands controlled simply by breaking their posture. Also a punch as in the situation above is controlling, you can not see that?

 

[LFJ]

Actually the answer is yes and no, that "zombie bridge" is just a well used drill to
learn about the feeling and building up tension. (In this case to demonstrate)

Why?

That's one of the major mistakes guys try to de-train when they change lineages. Previously, in gwo-sau they'd start out from contact in chi-sau and as soon as distance was made, they'd stretch their arms out like zombies trying to feel for arms and get back into contact where they feel safe and comfortable.

This creates a bad habit that carries over to free sparring and fighting. Many guys come and say their stuff worked great when drilling with likeminded people, but when things got loose in free sparring, especially with other styles, suddenly nothing worked anymore. And these are often "high level" practitioners and instructors of many years in their previous lineages.

Of course you will say that's not what they should be doing. They know that too, but it's an ingrained habit, perhaps a side effect from the way you train, the strategy and tactics, the focus on "feeling".

Problem starting out with punching is that it will be flawed unless done with full intent. Full intent would cause many students to lose their body structure or start doing taan sau as a stressed technique rather than a natural move due to tension.

The issue here isn't whether you start with an intent to punch or just enter with an outstretched man-sau, the problem is the fact that you're going straight into an already occupied and well guarded center knowing you will not likely just walk through someone and will have to change.

Pretty sure I said that elbow collapse is not part of what I am doing, just like in the movie there
is no just walk through attack here. It most likely look that way because of lack of intent in his student.
When you learn how tension works there is no point moving more than enough to exit the path of his punch and use that angle to attack him.

Don't you see the problem here? You have to "exit the path of his punch" because you were walking straight into it to begin with!

That may be "direct" but it's not intelligent. Nor is it efficient, because now he has to do several things in order to get around the obstacle he just mindlessly walked into. He has to change his shape, his footwork, his facing, his angles. Everything. Not so direct after all.

Not sure where you see this happening, he has a clear path to attack his opponent.
Only exception I could see was when he was talking about if an opponent pushes him hard,
something his opponent did not do which made it look rather odd. @0:40

Not sure? He even said "my footwork changes" @0:18 as he rotates his body and angle from straight on to coming in from the side. He's forced to do all of this precisely because he doesn't have a clear path to attack directly!

This problem is one he brought on himself by going straight into an occupied center hoping the opponent's structure would be weak, then having to change when the opponent resists, as is the natural reaction of any conscious human being...

(I think this comes from a misconception of man/wu and an obsession with occupying the center, all due to missing elements of strategy. Cham-kiu, seeking the bridge. Many interpret the bridge as contact with an opponent, so they walk straight forward with outstretched arms expecting to run into contact and work their chi-sau skills. For me, the bridge is the most simple and direct path to the target. Has nothing to do with touching arms, and walking straight up the middle into an occupied center is not it!)

This you need to show what you mean it should have been, but keep in mind that scenario of walking in
like a zombie is nothing more than simple drill to get basics.

Basics of flawed strategy and tactics, that is.

Do you understand what YM is showing in this photo? If you think in terms of what he might be doing to an invisible opponent, you will miss the point entirely.

Taan sau has nothing to do with the punching. Taan da or not to taan da, the situation decides.

Isn't it your theory that you let the opponent create your taan-sau and turn you with their punch if it is too strong?

So you never move to the sides, sidestepping in towards your opponent?

As shown, never. Because I follow more intelligent guidelines for engaging an opponent which don't entail going straight up an occupied center so that I have to take a detour around them.

Yes his opponent can, and then he can react to such a movement. There are no unbeatable techniques.

Problem is, he's in the middle of a large, committed action taking a full step and making a change of direction. At that moment he will be caught mid-action both physically and mentally. It will be extremely difficult to recover from that. Plus the fact that he has one foot on the floor and no base behind the line of an incoming right hand punch.

The opponent at this moment can sharply jat-da, simple and direct, to cut him off. The jat will destroy his balance and facing (especially since he is mid-step), resulting in the effect of the punch likely being a decisive one.

Even when he completes his step, his position is as someone standing straight with parallel feet. Receiving a power shot in such a position usually spells knockout. Also, nothing has been done to prevent action from the opponent well before any of this plan gets to play out. There is still plenty of space for a sharp turn to face with a power shot.

Sure, nothing is 100% and maybe he could recover somehow. But as guy b. already said, fighting is a numbers game and the odds are stacked greatly against him, and he did it to himself!

 

[LFJ]

Honestly I thought it was the same as excluding punch or including punch or wedge punching or whatever, but now that LFJ has repeatedly said it is NOT that, I'm just super interested and curious as to what tan-punch looks like in action

In action, it looks like "just a punch". That was a critique some made of WSL's fights. He "just punched and kicked". But that's what VT is!

It's subtle, not a technique. It is not in reference to what an opponent is doing and how I use my elbow or contort my arm to wedge them out this way or that depending on what they do. Without understanding overall strategy and tactics, you will be seeing "just a punch".

It's strategic. It's trained throughout the dummy form, which many take as techniques against an opponent. They see the arms as representing a human or punches. Rather it's a tool to refine our own actions within the limitations of our own structure.

Many are obsessed with occupying the center. So they hold their man/wu on the center and move straight forward with it, aiming to wedge things out. This breaks things into "4 gates" and they are forced to use one hand to defend one of these gates while the other hand punches. Inefficient. Or they are forced to make a detour and cut back in on an incoming attack because they are stuck on the center. Indirect.

It's more about spatial domination that doesn't require stubbornly occupying the center. The correct position and path of wu-sau is taught in CK where it forms a punching unit with bong-sau (aka kwan-sau). But people are too focused on application ideas that they entirely miss the strategic ones.

Rather than 4 gates, I want to cut that in half in such a way that I only need to use one arm with dual functions in direct attack, and two such arms in rotation to sustain an unthinking assault regardless what the opponent does. I don't want to defend with techniques at the mercy of my opponent. I will get set up. I want to protect space while attacking so that I need not think and decide which hand to use where. I want to impose upon the opponent, as guy b. says. Take their space and facing away, limiting their options for response.

I also don't want to let them turn me, as some lineages do. Overturning on one's own is hard enough not to do in the heat of a fight. Training against this begins in CK, where most focus on elbow strikes and other application ideas. We turn the opponent or if the opponent turns themselves, we let them overshoot, taking advantage of the mistake, and taking whichever side they expose. The opponent shows us how to hit them.

But in action, and to the untrained eye, you will only see "just a punch".

 

[Phobius]

Why?

That's one of the major mistakes guys try to de-train when they change lineages. Previously, in gwo-sau they'd start out from contact in chi-sau and as soon as distance was made, they'd stretch their arms out like zombies trying to feel for arms and get back into contact where they feel safe and comfortable.

This creates a bad habit that carries over to free sparring and fighting. Many guys come and say their stuff worked great when drilling with likeminded people, but when things got loose in free sparring, especially with other styles, suddenly nothing worked anymore. And these are often "high level" practitioners and instructors of many years in their previous lineages.

Of course you will say that's not what they should be doing. They know that too, but it's an ingrained habit, perhaps a side effect from the way you train, the strategy and tactics, the focus on "feeling".

So you want to discuss taan sau or drills? You cant do both. If advanced students spend their time doing this drill that should be the core of the problem. You need to move on to drills with intent. Those instructors you met, have they not gotten bored doing basic drills?

The issue here isn't whether you start with an intent to punch or just enter with an outstretched man-sau, the problem is the fact that you're going straight into an already occupied and well guarded center knowing you will not likely just walk through someone and will have to change.

You do know that noone will punch so slowly that you can know whether or not to walk into a guarded center. There will come a time when you do, for those times you need to know what to do if the situation arises.

Or are you saying taan sau in this discussion has to be some sort of main technique behind all WC? It is just one more tool in the box, nothing more.

Don't you see the problem here? You have to "exit the path of his punch" because you were walking straight into it to begin with!

You don't think that will ever happen to you? Such a scenario will happen to everyone. Taan sau is not a goal. Saying it again, it is just one of those tools you have in your box. More in chi sau perhaps than in a real fight except if you are not really prepared, slow to react, suprised, being grabbed... what not. There are more situations than competition or sparring.

Not sure? He even said "my footwork changes" @0:18 as he rotates his body and angle from straight on to coming in from the side. He's forced to do all of this precisely because he doesn't have a clear path to attack directly!

One thing I do agree with, he is not really side stepping. Does not mean someone can't sidestep into your opponent. I am guessing Fernandez has a natural boxer instinct popping up every now and then.

This problem is one he brought on himself by going straight into an occupied center hoping the opponent's structure would be weak, then having to change when the opponent resists, as is the natural reaction of any conscious human being...

He is going on the outside of his opponent and in some cases attacking his opponents opposite shoulder line to conquer his balance and structure. That means his first punch will be more of a control followed up by his second punch. Of course his opponent can shift his own structure to attack but that would be sensed.

Do you understand what YM is showing in this photo? If you think in terms of what he might be doing to an invisible opponent, you will miss the point entirely.

The question was as to how "Walk straight into opponent" has anything to do with taan sau. You can have an opponent walk into you, dont you know? There are other styles of fighting other than WC and such opponents dont follow your plan of perfect WSLVT movements.

Isn't it your theory that you let the opponent create your taan-sau and turn you with their punch if it is too strong?

Yes but you talk as if the punching was that of second hand, not the taan sau hand. Actually in all talks about zombie hand you keep on talking as if it was not seen as a punch.

As shown, never. Because I follow more intelligent guidelines for engaging an opponent which don't entail going straight up an occupied center so that I have to take a detour around them.

You are starting to sound one dimensional. This was a discussion about taan sau. You wanted to know what I meant, now you wish to discuss sidestepping? It exists and it works, trust me. Might not be part of WSLVT as part of the underground teachings but it is there for me.

Problem is, he's in the middle of a large, committed action taking a full step and making a change of direction. At that moment he will be caught mid-action both physically and mentally. It will be extremely difficult to recover from that. Plus the fact that he has one foot on the floor and no base behind the line of an incoming right hand punch.

You are welcome to discuss this with Fernandez, his stepping was not part of the discussion.

The opponent at this moment can sharply jat-da, simple and direct, to cut him off. The jat will destroy his balance and facing (especially since he is mid-step), resulting in the effect of the punch likely being a decisive one.

You mean shift himself so to attack the centerline of Fernandez? Sure it might be possible. Most likely going to happen during a planned demonstration on a YouTube clip however. If it would that shift is noticable.

Even when he completes his step, his position is as someone standing straight with parallel feet. Receiving a power shot in such a position usually spells knockout. Also, nothing has been done to prevent action from the opponent well before any of this plan gets to play out. There is still plenty of space for a sharp turn to face with a power shot.

Sure, nothing is 100% and maybe he could recover somehow. But as guy b. already said, fighting is a numbers game and the odds are stacked greatly against him, and he did it to himself!

You are free to tell Fernandez this, has nothing to do with the taan sau discussion itself.

 

[DaveB]

In action, it looks like "just a punch". That was a critique some made of WSL's fights. He "just punched and kicked". But that's what VT is!

It's subtle, not a technique. It is not in reference to what an opponent is doing and how I use my elbow or contort my arm to wedge them out this way or that depending on what they do. Without understanding overall strategy and tactics, you will be seeing "just a punch".

It's strategic. It's trained throughout the dummy form, which many take as techniques against an opponent. They see the arms as representing a human or punches. Rather it's a tool to refine our own actions within the limitations of our own structure.

Many are obsessed with occupying the center. So they hold their man/wu on the center and move straight forward with it, aiming to wedge things out. This breaks things into "4 gates" and they are forced to use one hand to defend one of these gates while the other hand punches. Inefficient. Or they are forced to make a detour and cut back in on an incoming attack because they are stuck on the center. Indirect.

It's more about spatial domination that doesn't require stubbornly occupying the center. The correct position and path of wu-sau is taught in CK where it forms a punching unit with bong-sau (aka kwan-sau). But people are too focused on application ideas that they entirely miss the strategic ones.

Rather than 4 gates, I want to cut that in half in such a way that I only need to use one arm with dual functions in direct attack, and two such arms in rotation to sustain an unthinking assault regardless what the opponent does. I don't want to defend with techniques at the mercy of my opponent. I will get set up. I want to protect space while attacking so that I need not think and decide which hand to use where. I want to impose upon the opponent, as guy b. says. Take their space and facing away, limiting their options for response.

I also don't want to let them turn me, as some lineages do. Overturning on one's own is hard enough not to do in the heat of a fight. Training against this begins in CK, where most focus on elbow strikes and other application ideas. We turn the opponent or if the opponent turns themselves, we let them overshoot, taking advantage of the mistake, and taking whichever side they expose. The opponent shows us how to hit them.

But in action, and to the untrained eye, you will only see "just a punch".

I for one would love to see this wing chun style in action. Preferably against a comparable opponent of a different art in full contact competition, since that is the level that the strategy has been developed towards.

If not I too would settle for a demo of this tan punch principle.

While comments like "a more intelligent guideline" suggest he is posting purely to stroke his own ego, I think LFJ is right about the general issue of martial artists focusing on techniques and applications instead of looking to ingrain and expand upon a strategy.

Martial arts in my view are at their core, strategies for winning fights.

 

[Phobius]

To avoid extending my wall of quote/text above.

I just wanted to say that above messages are just for discussing. I tried to focus on taan sau.
In some places I don't think I understand your comment so well.

What I see the talk about 4 gates it is valid, same as the hope of not needing them. None of that in my view is special to WSLVT. I just argue that it sounds to me as if you feel that one should just assume that fight can always be controlled and as such you rule out all techniques necessary to master in order to not use them.

That is the thing, by mastering a technique completely you render it non-used. Not the other way around. You do not avoid techniques because they are unused, you master them so much that you no longer even need to use them. This I believe WSL may have stated numerous times but it is not equal to a technique being bad, just that it takes time mastering and once you get there you will no longer be using it.

 

[LFJ]

So you want to discuss taan sau or drills? You cant do both. If advanced students spend their time doing this drill that should be the core of the problem. You need to move on to drills with intent. Those instructors you met, have they not gotten bored doing basic drills?

I said gwo-sau, and free sparring and fighting against other styles. Not just basic drills.

You do know that noone will punch so slowly that you can know whether or not to walk into a guarded center.

You are directly faced off with an opponent who has his guard up. You enter straight up the middle aiming to wedge things out, hoping your opponent has weak structure you can just walk through or that he doesn't resist.

That's walking into a guarded center, purposefully.

Or are you saying taan sau in this discussion has to be some sort of main technique behind all WC? It is just one more tool in the box, nothing more.

That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. It's a training tool, not a fighting technique. Just like fuk-sau.

You don't think that will ever happen to you?

Walking straight into the path of a punch on purpose by holding center and going straight up the middle? Of course not.

He is going on the outside of his opponent and in some cases attacking his opponents opposite shoulder line to conquer his balance and structure. That means his first punch will be more of a control followed up by his second punch. Of course his opponent can shift his own structure to attack but that would be sensed.

Attacking shoulder lines? Why not jaw lines?

Control? Sensing?

One thing you must understand is how high stress and spiked heart rate in the heat of a fight can affect your performance. Not saying everyone will lose the same amount of fine motor dexterity, and hard sparring is a good stress inoculator, if you're doing it.

But generally speaking, techniques that rely on tactile information to make fine adjustments and appropriate decisions cannot be relied upon in a fight. It would be wiser to use simple techniques that rely on gross motor movements, like punches or kicks, or running. Tightening your lines and reducing your necessary actions, while reducing possible responses for your opponent ups your percentages. Sticking and feeling is fantasy outside of chi-sau.

Yes but you talk as if the punching was that of second hand, not the taan sau hand. Actually in all talks about zombie hand you keep on talking as if it was not seen as a punch.

Does. Not. Matter.

The problem is you move straight into a guarded center knowing you'll likely have to convert to taan-sau or something else since you aren't fighting a scarecrow. I don't care if you were punching. It's just poor strategy.

You are starting to sound one dimensional. This was a discussion about taan sau. You wanted to know what I meant, now you wish to discuss sidestepping?

Eh? You asked me about sidestepping. It was part of your presented taan-sau application anyway, when the opponent's force causes him to rotate and change directions, he changes footwork. Figured we'd discuss the thing as a whole.

 

[LFJ]

I just argue that it sounds to me as if you feel that one should just assume that fight can always be controlled and as such you rule out all techniques necessary to master in order to not use them.

No. I know the fight cannot always be controlled, and that's the reason I rule out all indirect and inefficient techniques and flawed strategies. Increases my chances of success.

 

[guy b.]

LFJ, you obviously need to be more humble when revealing the way that wing chun functions. That way people can feel happier about themselves as they pretend they knew it all along.

 

[LFJ]

I for one would love to see this wing chun style in action. Preferably against a comparable opponent of a different art in full contact competition, since that is the level that the strategy has been developed towards.

If not I too would settle for a demo of this tan punch principle.

If what I've said sounds in any way interesting or convincing, I would suggest serious people with the means and opportunity go and try it out for themselves. Most schools welcome enthusiastic seekers and would be open to showing it hands-on, which is of course the best way to learn.

 

[Phobius]

I said gwo-sau, and free sparring and fighting against other styles. Not just basic drills.

You are the one talking about zombie hands in fighting then, that has not been something I said, shown or in any way referred to.

You are directly faced off with an opponent who has his guard up. You enter straight up the middle aiming to wedge things out, hoping your opponent has weak structure you can just walk through or that he doesn't resist.

That's walking into a guarded center, purposefully.

I do not, what gives you that impression? There is nothing "Going straight up the middle", the middle is blocked. There might be someone here who can do a taan sau moving straight into an opponent but I am not one of those. Therefore sidestep and attack from outside.

And you can say "it never happens in WSL VT which is nice for you, but sounds really unrealistic.

That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. It's a training tool, not a fighting technique. Just like fuk-sau.

You missunderstand, what I meant is. "Are you saying that I mean taan sau in some way is a main technique of WC that is always used?" I never have said such a thing. I am simply stating that taan sau is a tool to have in your toolbox. Nothing more. You are the one saying a taan sau is not a tool at all and has no use nor can be used in a fight whatsoever in any scenario whatosever with any positive results whatsoever. Or you phrased it as being completely and utterly useless.

Walking straight into the path of a punch on purpose by holding center and going straight up the middle? Of course not.

Noone has done that. It takes skill to walk into a punch, you need to time that really well. Most often a punch simply comes towards you. In some cases it does that when you are punching as well. And if you are not punching then either A. You are in a position where you cannot punch, MOVE!, B. You are sleeping or otherwise unprepared for fight.

Attacking shoulder lines? Why not jaw lines?

If you draw a vertical line through your shoulder. Not sure what to call it. Is a way to conquer and destroy a persons structure when attacking on the outside. Depends of course on where that person has his axis of rotation.

Control? Sensing?

One thing you must understand is how high stress and spiked heart rate in the heat of a fight can affect your performance. Not saying everyone will lose the same amount of fine motor dexterity, and hard sparring is a good stress inoculator, if you're doing it.

But generally speaking, techniques that rely on tactile information to make fine adjustments and appropriate decisions cannot be relied upon in a fight. It would be wiser to use simple techniques that rely on gross motor movements, like punches or kicks, or running. Tightening your lines and reducing your necessary actions, while reducing possible responses for your opponent ups your percentages. Sticking and feeling is fantasy outside of chi-sau.

This is really just wall of text saying nothing in terms of value. Did I ever state that taan sau was not a move done because of need and that everything starts out being punches. There is not a "Lets extend my arm and become a taan sau when I meet something!". There is a reaction to a force moving towards yours that you can not control.

You are saying such scenario never happens which means you believe from the first moment even before a fight has started you have won and will always win because no opponent will ever punch or hit you.

The rest of us are not there yet. We do get hit.

Does. Not. Matter.

With such an attitude this discussion is over, you are not interested in discussing but rather win some verbal fighting? This is not fighting, I can do that with a physical person instead. Teaches me more. I want to know more about how you can be so sure to never end up having to defend your gates.

The problem is you move straight into a guarded center knowing you'll likely have to convert to taan-sau or something else since you aren't fighting a scarecrow. I don't care if you were punching. It's just poor strategy.

No I dont. Nice of you to think you know me so well but you don't. Taan sau is not something you plan or do because it is funny. It is something you become forced to do as a movement because your body will not twist in another way that disrupts your bodily structure. Meaning you feel it but not as you think some thought in terms of 'oh I sense him doing this, so I do taan sau' but rather a sense of maintaining your structure and as such move accordingly.

Eh? You asked me about sidestepping. It was part of your presented taan-sau application anyway, when the opponent's force causes him to rotate and change directions, he changes footwork. Figured we'd discuss the thing as a whole.

I did not ask you anything about sidestepping, doubt so at least because I have no interest in discussing it. You asked me about how I would describe the taan sau technique and I linked a video that described it fairly close to my own interpretation.

 

[LFJ]

You are the one talking about zombie hands in fighting then, that has not been something I said, shown or in any way referred to.

I saw it as a demo in the video you posted, and it's a habit of many LTWT guys when they are out of contact to search for it again, because that's where they're comfortable.

Again, maybe it's not something they're supposed to do, but it's an ingrained habit from focussing so much on sticking and feeling and general "bridging" ideas. CK is even interpreted as seeking arm contact (the "bridge" taken literally).

I do not, what gives you that impression? There is nothing "Going straight up the middle", the middle is blocked.

The video you posted. The guy is.

There might be someone here who can do a taan sau moving straight into an opponent but I am not one of those. Therefore sidestep and attack from outside.

Don't play straight line and stubbornly try to occupy center and you won't have to make such a detour. Your primary method of engagement should be more along the lines of tactical footwork to find cleaner entry opportunities.

Walking straight into the path of a punch on purpose by holding center and going straight up the middle? Of course not.

Noone has done that.

Except the guy in your video demonstrating what you say represents your method fairly closely.

Did I ever state that taan sau was not a move done because of need and that everything starts out being punches. There is not a "Lets extend my arm and become a taan sau when I meet something!". There is a reaction to a force moving towards yours that you can not control.

I've never needed to do a taan-sau like you. It's a volitional act on your part even if you're just maintaining structure against force and spinning around it.

With such an attitude this discussion is over, you are not interested in discussing but rather win some verbal fighting? This is not fighting, I can do that with a physical person instead. Teaches me more. I want to know more about how you can be so sure to never end up having to defend your gates.

It's not an "attitude". It really doesn't matter if you were punching first or not. It's about (intelligent) strategy, if that hasn't been coming across in my posts.

I don't have to defend a whole bunch of gates with arms going in every direction because I'm not obsessed with occupying the center and playing straight line. My strategy and tactics are to reduce available paths for the opponent.

The problem is you move straight into a guarded center knowing you'll likely have to convert to taan-sau or something else since you aren't fighting a scarecrow. I don't care if you were punching. It's just poor strategy.

No I dont. Nice of you to think you know me so well but you don't.

I asked you to post something so you weren't misrepresented. If you'd like to distance yourself from the presented method in the video you posted, feel free to post another video that more closely represents your method.

Taan sau is not something you plan or do because it is funny. It is something you become forced to do as a movement because your body will not twist in another way that disrupts your bodily structure. Meaning you feel it but not as you think some thought in terms of 'oh I sense him doing this, so I do taan sau' but rather a sense of maintaining your structure and as such move accordingly.

I understand what you're saying. But it is a volitional act for you to maintain structure and let yourself be turned into taan-sau. I've never been forced to do that. Also you wouldn't have to either if you weren't making head on collisions up the middle.

The best analogy I think is a water fight. Play straight line with an opponent and you'll both get soaked. Better to adopt angles and tactics that allow you to wet your opponent while avoiding and preventing them from facing you so you stay relatively dry. We first learn that with seung-ma/teui-ma drills, which many people do in, you guessed it, straight lines!

 

[KPM]

LFJ, you obviously need to be more humble when revealing the way that wing chun functions. That way people can feel happier about themselves as they pretend they knew it all along.

 

[Phobius]

I asked you to post something so you weren't misrepresented. If you'd like to distance yourself from the presented method in the video you posted, feel free to post another video that more closely represents your method.

I am a busy person mostly, and it is not my turn to post videos. (I cant be arsed to find someone on YouTube that does things the way I do, ironic given that what I do should be nothing special) Now you need to show what you mean about not having to defend the gates against any opponent ever. How is this achieved? Text does not convey your message because there are a million "What ifs" in regards to your text.

So far what you write sounds very close to: "if you do as I do you will never ever get hit!" which we all know is (Bah:censorship) 'not true' and that cant be what you mean.

 

[Phobius]

LFJ, you obviously need to be more humble when revealing the way that wing chun functions. That way people can feel happier about themselves as they pretend they knew it all along.

I shouldnt but this is just an arrogant troll post. If you have nothing valuable to add then leave room for LFJ instead. Cant even believe I am saying this.

 

[KPM]

With such an attitude this discussion is over, you are not interested in discussing but rather win some verbal fighting? .

That was my conclusion Phobius. I think you are wasting your time.

 

[Phobius]

That was my conclusion Phobius. I think you are wasting your time.

Could be but I am actually interested in what makes LFJ believe he never has to worry about his own gates.

 

[KPM]

Could be but I am actually interested in what makes LFJ believe he never has to worry about his own gates.

Yes. Why he thinks he doesn't need to worry about his own gates. Why he thinks that a real fight isn't a chaotic mess where you may need to cover yourself when you aren't in control of the situation...which may be often! Why he thinks that WSL never taught or did a Tan Da when there is clear photographic evidence that he did. Why he thinks it would be "inefficient" and "indirect" to use a Tan Da motion to cover against a wide punch while moving in with a punch of your own. The list could go on. But, again, this will go nowhere as has already been proven. So time to just move on to something else.