Women's Rights

[Cobra]

Women's Rights

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]I live in a very diverse place. You can find just about every type of person that is in the world. Including Arabs with their vieled up women. I feel bad for those women, but it makes no sense why women are treated as seconds. Even in the Ku'ran, women are equals. So it must go beyond religion. If you think about also, it has nothing to do with politics either. Some extreme conservatives want women to be in the house and be banned from the workplace. While some extreme liberals think women are men's sex toys and that is all they are good for. So why are women considered lower than men?

Some people say it is because they are weaker and built to be controlled by men. But if being weak was the case, humans wouldn't have never become the dominant species considering they are much stronger animals than us in the world. Not only that, but women seam to submit many times. Why is that? Are women created to be controlled by men? I don't think so, but many people in the world think so.[/font]

 

[Touch Of Death]

Women's Rights

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]I live in a very diverse place. You can find just about every type of person that is in the world. Including Arabs with their vieled up women. I feel bad for those women, but it makes no sense why women are treated as seconds. Even in the Ku'ran, women are equals. So it must go beyond religion. If you think about also, it has nothing to do with politics either. Some extreme conservatives want women to be in the house and be banned from the workplace. While some extreme liberals think women are men's sex toys and that is all they are good for. So why are women considered lower than men?

Some people say it is because they are weaker and built to be controlled by men. But if being weak was the case, humans wouldn't have never become the dominant species considering they are much stronger animals than us in the world. Not only that, but women seam to submit many times. Why is that? Are women created to be controlled by men? I don't think so, but many people in the world think so.[/font]

Arab culture is more about protecting women than suppressing them. The five paces behind thing was meant to give women a safe distance from whatever troubles their huband encountered. Also an Araab women who has not yet succom to cirumscision generaly feels dirty and out of place. So, Stop feeling bad for them. They are not under the impression they are oppressed. The attempt to keep their daughters from being westernized is a whole new ball of wax for them, but then again isn't the Eve, the forbidden fruit, and the garden of Eden what this is really all about?
Sean

 

[Cobra]

Arab culture is more about protecting women than suppressing them. The five paces behind thing was meant to give women a safe distance from whatever troubles their huband encountered. Also an Araab women who has not yet succom to cirumscision generaly feels dirty and out of place. So, Stop feeling bad for them. They are not under the impression they are oppressed. The attempt to keep their daughters from being westernized is a whole new ball of wax for them, but then again isn't the Eve, the forbidden fruit, and the garden of Eden what this is really all about?
Sean

The Garden of Eden is in Christianity, not Islam.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, wow. I just learned that a) all "Arab," women, "succom {sic} to cirumscision;" b) women have only two choices, repression or sexual slavery.

To answer the question, "why are women considered lower than men?" It's because of the goofy ideas that men come up with.

 

[MisterMike]

And as for the idea that "women are superior than men," that usually comes from leftist lesbian feminists.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ya know, Mike, it's funny. I studied what you're pleased to call, "leftist lesbian feminist," criticism reasonably extensively, and I have never run across the notion of women being superior. Could you give details of EXACTLY what book, discussion, or person you're getting that from? Preferably without the invective?

Or is it just all the women who make the guy walk five steps behind them for their own protection, make 'em wear veils, and push the religious doctrines which say that men are inferior to women? Or wait--I know--it's all those women rapists and child molesters I keep hearing about on Montel Williams' show. That must be it.

What are guys so afraid of, anyway?

Betcha you can't give references about this lesbian feminist stuff.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ya know, Mike, it's funny. I studied what you're pleased to call, "leftist lesbian feminist," criticism reasonably extensively, and I have never run across the notion of women being superior. Could you give details of EXACTLY what book, discussion, or person you're getting that from? Preferably without the invective?

Or is it just all the women who make the guy walk five steps behind them for their own protection, make 'em wear veils, and push the religious doctrines which say that men are inferior to women? Or wait--I know--it's all those women rapists and child molesters I keep hearing about on Montel Williams' show. That must be it.

What are guys so afraid of, anyway?

Betcha you can't give references about this lesbian feminist stuff.

Ya dont watch too much TV do you?

Im not talking pure trash entertainment either.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The Garden of Eden is in Christianity, not Islam.

That should be news to the jews. I was implying that its the oldest problem in the Book; however you bring up an interesting point. Hows that islamic creation story go again?
Sean

 

[Cobra]

That should be news to the jews. I was implying that its the oldest problem in the Book; however you bring up an interesting point. Hows that islamic creation story go again?
Sean

Not sure, what islam's God created Earth. I'm do believe though that Christianity, Islam, and Judism are linked. There is know way to prove either of those religions are false, and they teach similar morals (pork for some reason is banned in Judism and Islam, how is that coincident happen?).

 

[Cobra]

Oh, wow. I just learned that a) all "Arab," women, "succom {sic} to cirumscision;" b) women have only two choices, repression or sexual slavery.

To answer the question, "why are women considered lower than men?" It's because of the goofy ideas that men come up with.

That is true that it was an idea of men, but why didn't the women protest. Why is it only 200 years ago they started to instead of 9,000 years ago?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not sure, what islam's God created Earth. I'm do believe though that Christianity, Islam, and Judism are linked. There is know way to prove either of those religions are false, and they teach similar morals (pork for some reason is banned in Judism and Islam, how is that coincident happen?).

Its no coicidence they were the same people until Abraham (or Abrahim) had two sons that went their seperate ways. One of those sons are illistrated in the Koran as being the "father" of the Islamic people.
Sean

 

[MisterMike]

Ya know, Mike, it's funny. I studied what you're pleased to call, "leftist lesbian feminist," criticism reasonably extensively, and I have never run across the notion of women being superior. Could you give details of EXACTLY what book, discussion, or person you're getting that from? Preferably without the invective?

Or is it just all the women who make the guy walk five steps behind them for their own protection, make 'em wear veils, and push the religious doctrines which say that men are inferior to women? Or wait--I know--it's all those women rapists and child molesters I keep hearing about on Montel Williams' show. That must be it.

What are guys so afraid of, anyway?

Betcha you can't give references about this lesbian feminist stuff.

Well Robert, actually it was the polar opposite of what you wrote. If "women considered lower than men" came from the goofy ideas of men (and I assume they were conservative heterosexuals whom you can also quote for us) then I think it stands that leftist lesbian feminists are certainly behind an idea that goes beyond equality for women.


I'll post my examples shortly after yours.

Thanx!

 

[MGM]

I have to say there is a great deal of irony in a thread about women argued over only by men.


Cobra,
I disagree that how and why women are treated a certain way has nothing to do with religion and politics. Both play a role, societies are largely formed based on the religion of the majority (or those in power) and the laws or civil ethics of the people in power.

Arab culture is more about protecting women than suppressing them. The five paces behind thing was meant to give women a safe distance from whatever troubles their huband encountered. Also an Araab women who has not yet succom to cirumscision generaly feels dirty and out of place.
Sean

T’O’D Sean,

Using the term Arab culture is an oversimplification. Is there really an "Arab culture"? There are a wide variety of social, political and religious views found within people and countries that can be labeled as Arab. Grouping them as only one singular minded society is wrong.

" Also an Araab women who has not yet succom to cirumscision generaly feels dirty and out of place."

I would like you to clarify your use of circumcision and the above statement in general. Officially only a man can be circumcised, are you referring to female genital mutilation?


If it is true that men are better than women because they are stronger, why aren't our sumo wrestlers in the government?
Kishida Toshiko

 

[rmcrobertson]

!. Well, yes, it is ironic.

2. Hey, Mike--I wasn't the one who made a claim that I couldn't support. But gee, Mike, if ya want examples of goofy remarks about women by men...are you reading this thread? As for the femninist theory, I recommend that you get a copy of Elaine Marks and Isabelle de Courtivron, "New French Feminisms," (New York: Shocken Books, 1981), an anthology that would give you a place to start. But you won't, will you? You'll just launch some remark about my character, or faggy intellectuals, or America/male-bashers...I don't mind that you don't know the ideas you're trashing. I do, however, object to your refusal to learn anything about them.

3. As for the other posters on this thread...I am rather enjoying the constellation of women/islam/"the jews" and the rest. Always good to see that those folks who wrote about the structure of male paranoia--and homophobia--didn't waste their time.

 

[Cobra]

I have to say there is a great deal of irony in a thread about women argued over only by men.


Cobra,
I disagree that how and why women are treated a certain way has nothing to do with religion and politics. Both play a role, societies are largely formed based on the religion of the majority (or those in power) and the laws or civil ethics of the people in power.




T’O’D Sean,

Using the term Arab culture is an oversimplification. Is there really an "Arab culture"? There are a wide variety of social, political and religious views found within people and countries that can be labeled as Arab. Grouping them as only one singular minded society is wrong.

" Also an Araab women who has not yet succom to cirumscision generaly feels dirty and out of place."

I would like you to clarify your use of circumcision and the above statement in general. Officially only a man can be circumcised, are you referring to female genital mutilation?


If it is true that men are better than women because they are stronger, why aren't our sumo wrestlers in the government?
Kishida Toshiko

Now calm down. No one believes that strenght determines who is in control. I said that in my making of this thread. If that was the case, elephants would be rulers of the world and humans would be near the bottom. It definatley has to do with mentality. Before 200 years ago, women viewed themselves too as lower than men. Only receant has the idea been chalenged and overrun, and only in developed countries.

 

[MisterMike]

!. Well, yes, it is ironic.

2. Hey, Mike--I wasn't the one who made a claim that I couldn't support. But gee, Mike, if ya want examples of goofy remarks about women by men...are you reading this thread? As for the femninist theory, I recommend that you get a copy of Elaine Marks and Isabelle de Courtivron, "New French Feminisms," (New York: Shocken Books, 1981), an anthology that would give you a place to start. But you won't, will you? You'll just launch some remark about my character, or faggy intellectuals, or America/male-bashers...I don't mind that you don't know the ideas you're trashing. I do, however, object to your refusal to learn anything about them.

Nor was I. But it's clear that when people like yourself assume others imply things like "All", "None", "Always" and "Never" it's easy to get into disagreement. I didn't say that's what these "theories" represent, but rather these ideas of superiority certainly are born from some of it's representatives.

Isn't it funny that your assumtion of my next answer is in itself a remark on character and a tactic you frequently use yourself.

3. As for the other posters on this thread...I am rather enjoying the constellation of women/islam/"the jews" and the rest. Always good to see that those folks who wrote about the structure of male paranoia--and homophobia--didn't waste their time.

I love it when the -phobia terms start flying...gotta chuckle at that.

 

[someguy]

Why don't we kill peopel? Everythin comes from religion. Well alot does anyway. Think about this for a second. Then you will realize that so many of your actions come from a religion. Why do you not kill might have something to do with religion influencing society to not kill to often. The roots of not killing probably go back to prehistoric times so it may be a bad example but I just finished anearly 3 hour final so go think of a better one for yourself.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I have to say there is a great deal of irony in a thread about women argued over only by men.


Cobra,
I disagree that how and why women are treated a certain way has nothing to do with religion and politics. Both play a role, societies are largely formed based on the religion of the majority (or those in power) and the laws or civil ethics of the people in power.




T’O’D Sean,

Using the term Arab culture is an oversimplification. Is there really an "Arab culture"? There are a wide variety of social, political and religious views found within people and countries that can be labeled as Arab. Grouping them as only one singular minded society is wrong.

" Also an Araab women who has not yet succom to cirumscision generaly feels dirty and out of place."

I would like you to clarify your use of circumcision and the above statement in general. Officially only a man can be circumcised, are you referring to female genital mutilation?


If it is true that men are better than women because they are stronger, why aren't our sumo wrestlers in the government?
Kishida Toshiko

I'm going to go out on a limb here and proclaim that Aarabs do not call clitoral augmentation a mutilation; so, I think I was as clear as I needed to be. Last Months issue of Jane Magazine had a huge article about quasi medical proffessionals touring the US and accepting money to "mutilate" people's daughters. Interestingly enough some western women are now having the proceedure done to themselves. Go figure.
Sean

 

[Nightingale]

I had an interesting conversationwith a college pal about why she chose to wear a head scarf... she said that wearing it was HER choice. Her family left it up to her as to how "western" she wished to be. Her compromise was western clothes, but covered up wrist to ankle (jeans and a sweater), and the headscarf. She said that covering one's head is what her religion believed was proper, and that it was her choice to accept that or not.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, wow.

Beautiful example of what Neil hertz identified as, "male anxiety under political pressure." (See his, "Medusa's Head," in a volume of "Representations" about ten years back...like anybody's going to look this up and learn anything.)

Roughly in reverse order:

1. Sean--talking about what, "Arabs," do is pretty much the same as talking about what, "all white people," do. It's a generalization. See Edward Said, "Orientalism."

2. Mike: I see that a) you haven't read the first two posts on this silly thread, which generalized like crazy; b) I see you haven't lived up to your own claim that you would offer precise references right after I did; c) all you need to do is avoid talking about women/jews/gay people together, and my remarks don't apply, but if you do, well, look up DeBeauvoir's concept of, "the Other;" d) I feel sure that rather than your reading what's actually being written and offering specifics, you'll duck out on both in favor of personal attack.

3. "Cobra," (perfect pseudonym for this topic; and yet people laugh at Freud), you are proceeding from a number of completely-false assumptions, the most salient of which at the moment are a) the assumption that women only started kvetching 200 years ago (try Christine de Pisan; try "Lysistrata," dude), and b) the assumption that women invented patriarchy.

This is, of course, an utterly-hopeless discussion. I couldn't begin to disentangle the spaghetti of racist, culturally-biased, and patriarchal theories off which some of you guys are operating (no, I didn't just call you all "racists," just the folks who lump all, "Arabs," together and make ridiculous claims about what They All do)--but I have a minor interest in seeing just how whacky some of you will get.

So--keep a-goin.'