Gender & Religous Worship; split from Mosque at Ground Zero thread

[CanuckMA]

It's not my fault, the keyboard is too small.

 

[Tez3]

Yes I do find men distracting and I've never heard anyone in Judaism say a man can't control himself or a woman is responsible for being raped. It's nothing to do with thinking men are tom cats at all, it's about trying for a bit of serenity, peace and quiet. The men tend to be more exhuberant in their worship, being women we like some peace and quiet time. Oh and if GSP were to turn up in my synagogue I'd be sat looking at his face in rapt enjoyment!! there's something about his eyes that I find fascinating which would not be at all the thing if I'm supposed to be in a service, heck, it wouldn't be the thing if I were at work and my other half wouldn't be too chuffed either!!

I like a calm atmosphere in synagogue not having to listen to men doing business or chatting ( I'd say gossiping but people will complain), as Canuck says services are probably very different from what you'd imagine and it is easy to be distracted, I like the company of my fellow mothers and sisters. We know that sitting down is a precious joy for busy women and we know how to appreciate it.

I think too much has been read into the sitting apart thing.

 

[elder999]

Unlike Xtian, or even other streams of Judaism, Orthodox servoces can be quite chaotic. Everybody prays at their own pace, and catches up at certain points for cummunal prayers. In that environment, it is quite easy to become distracted.

Oh, and have I ever said how absolutely cool I think this is? :asian:

 

[Ken Morgan]

I actually love you guys. Its why I hang around. I love ken Morgan for example, though he belongs to the conservative party of Canada.

Ummmm....Thank you?? I think...

 

[Empty Hands]

Look, it's pretty clear that all of these religious traditions (in Islam, Christianity and Judaism, and probably in other religions I don't know about) that separate the sexes have their basis in male supremacy and the uncleanness of women. The very nature of women is dirty and corrupts men - look to the instructions for menstruating women, for example. Patriarchy is fundamental to these practices when they were created.

Of course, things change. Patriarchal traditions are repurposed, reinterpreted, or just plain rationalized to bring them in line with the beliefs of those who practice them. Look at the trappings of marriage - a ceremony that formalizes the transfer of a woman as property from one man to another. That ceremony has been fundamentally reinterpreted, and even radical feminists who recognize that history still get married. They make it their own.

So in some sense, both sides are right here. The traditions mean something different now, to most people. But those traditions were based on patriarchy - and any reinterpretation cannot ignore that basic reality. Also, while many are happy particularly in the first world to reinterpret those beliefs, fundamentalists here and elsewhere are more than happy to keep the original intent of the traditions. The headscarf is adopted by women here voluntarily as a sign of modesty or tradition; in rural Pakistan, not wearing one outside might mean death. Orthodox restrictions are voluntarily engaged in by many all over the world; but gangs of young men might beat you up for riding a bus on the Sabbath in the wrong part of Jerusalem.

Humanity is complex, and I'm glad these practices have gained new, more egalitarian meanings. But don't ignore where they come from, and don't pretend they never had that meaning. You do a disservice to history and to yourself. Don't get too upset at outsiders either who judge you for engaging in patriarchal traditions - they may not share your rationalizations. You chose it, after all.

It would be better if we could get rid of all of these irrational and fundamentally anti-human beliefs - but I know just how popular that opinion is.

 

[elder999]

Look, it's pretty clear that all of these religious traditions (in Islam, Christianity and Judaism, and probably in other religions I don't know about) that separate the sexes have their basis in male supremacy and the uncleanness of women. The very nature of women is dirty and corrupts men - look to the instructions for menstruating women, for example. Patriarchy is fundamental to these practices when they were created.

Of course, things change. Patriarchal traditions are repurposed, reinterpreted, or just plain rationalized to bring them in line with the beliefs of those who practice them. Look at the trappings of marriage - a ceremony that formalizes the transfer of a woman as property from one man to another. That ceremony has been fundamentally reinterpreted, and even radical feminists who recognize that history still get married. They make it their own.

So in some sense, both sides are right here. The traditions mean something different now, to most people. But those traditions were based on patriarchy - and any reinterpretation cannot ignore that basic reality. Also, while many are happy particularly in the first world to reinterpret those beliefs, fundamentalists here and elsewhere are more than happy to keep the original intent of the traditions. The headscarf is adopted by women here voluntarily as a sign of modesty or tradition; in rural Pakistan, not wearing one outside might mean death. Orthodox restrictions are voluntarily engaged in by many all over the world; but gangs of young men might beat you up for riding a bus on the Sabbath in the wrong part of Jerusalem.

Humanity is complex, and I'm glad these practices have gained new, more egalitarian meanings. But don't ignore where they come from, and don't pretend they never had that meaning. You do a disservice to history and to yourself. Don't get too upset at outsiders either who judge you for engaging in patriarchal traditions - they may not share your rationalizations. You chose it, after all.

It would be better if we could get rid of all of these irrational and fundamentally anti-human beliefs - but I know just how popular that opinion is.

American Indian societies and traditions had a strong matriarchal component.I'm sure other societies (Polynesian, Australian Aboriginal, etc.) also did/do. While your interpretation might hold water sometimes and for some things, it's painting with too broad a brush.

The story behind the peyote cermony says that a woman found the peyote cactus, and brought it to the men saying, Here, eat this. You need it. :lol:

 

[Empty Hands]

American Indian societies and traditions had a strong matriarchal component.I'm sure other societies (Polynesian, Australian Aboriginal, etc.) also did/do. While your interpretation might hold water sometimes and for some things, it's painting with too broad a brush.

Well, I am no expert on aboriginal societies, so I would defer to you. However, most such societies I have read on include gender roles and a gendered division of labor. That's rarely a sign of egalitarianism. Nor could the woman you cited in your earlier experience give you a real reason for the division of the genders.

The story behind the peyote cermony says that a woman found the peyote cactus, and brought it to the men saying, Here, eat this. You need it. :lol:

Sure, and Queen Esther was one badass lady. The penalty for a woman not calling for help while being raped "in the city" though was still death.

 

[elder999]

Well, I am no expert on aboriginal societies, so I would defer to you. However, most such societies I have read on include gender roles and a gendered division of labor. That's rarely a sign of egalitarianism. Nor could the woman you cited in your earlier experience give you a real reason for the division of the genders.

For Margaret, that was the real reason. No woman has ever been, as far as I know, ejected from a ceremony for not wearing a shawl, or a dress.

While they did have gender roles, they were also generally fairly flexible. Most had a place for women who wanted to hunt and be warriors, and for Plains people, the whole tribe often went out to hunt bison and antelope en mass.Some societies, the Lakota for example,also had a role for men who wanted to live as women.

I think that qualifies (whatever inequities may well have existed) as pretty damn egalitarian.:lol:

Besides, gender roles are mostly natural-I'm never going to have a baby, as Canuck pointed out. More to the point, I'm never going to have to be cared for or have diminished productivity because I'm pregnant, or nursing and carrying around an 18 lb. parasite.:lol:

 

[Blade96]

Look, it's pretty clear that all of these religious traditions (in Islam, Christianity and Judaism, and probably in other religions I don't know about) that separate the sexes have their basis in male supremacy and the uncleanness of women. The very nature of women is dirty and corrupts men - look to the instructions for menstruating women, for example. Patriarchy is fundamental to these practices when they were created.

Of course, things change. Patriarchal traditions are repurposed, reinterpreted, or just plain rationalized to bring them in line with the beliefs of those who practice them. Look at the trappings of marriage - a ceremony that formalizes the transfer of a woman as property from one man to another. That ceremony has been fundamentally reinterpreted, and even radical feminists who recognize that history still get married. They make it their own.

So in some sense, both sides are right here. The traditions mean something different now, to most people. But those traditions were based on patriarchy - and any reinterpretation cannot ignore that basic reality. Also, while many are happy particularly in the first world to reinterpret those beliefs, fundamentalists here and elsewhere are more than happy to keep the original intent of the traditions. The headscarf is adopted by women here voluntarily as a sign of modesty or tradition; in rural Pakistan, not wearing one outside might mean death. Orthodox restrictions are voluntarily engaged in by many all over the world; but gangs of young men might beat you up for riding a bus on the Sabbath in the wrong part of Jerusalem.

Humanity is complex, and I'm glad these practices have gained new, more egalitarian meanings. But don't ignore where they come from, and don't pretend they never had that meaning. You do a disservice to history and to yourself. Don't get too upset at outsiders either who judge you for engaging in patriarchal traditions - they may not share your rationalizations. You chose it, after all.

It would be better if we could get rid of all of these irrational and fundamentally anti-human beliefs - but I know just how popular that opinion is.

nice post

American Indian societies and traditions had a strong matriarchal component.I'm sure other societies (Polynesian, Australian Aboriginal, etc.) also did/do. While your interpretation might hold water sometimes and for some things, it's painting with too broad a brush.

The story behind the peyote cermony says that a woman found the peyote cactus, and brought it to the men saying, Here, eat this. You need it. :lol:

Russia's early civilization - long before even the first romanov came to power in 1613 - was grounded on matriarchal too. In fact the word for russia - rossiya - is feminine. Earth is a feminine word. Zemlya.

Your point? Looks a bit like a straw person. because it doesnt change the fact that these beliefs of the religions we speak about are rooted in patriarchy.

and i dont get distracted by men at all. Think of martial arts. I'm surrounded in shotokan by men with good looking bodies who can kick ***! Doesnt distract me at all from my objective or from my work. Nor did men in university, men in grade school, or anything else. The 'good looking girls are distracting" or 'GL'ing boys are" didnt ring true at all for me.

 

[CanuckMA]

Look, it's pretty clear that all of these religious traditions (in Islam, Christianity and Judaism, and probably in other religions I don't know about) that separate the sexes have their basis in male supremacy and the uncleanness of women. The very nature of women is dirty and corrupts men - look to the instructions for menstruating women, for example. Patriarchy is fundamental to these practices when they were created.

You seem to come to this from a Xtian POV.

In Judaism, women are not unclean, ditry or corrupt men.

The 'cleanliness' relates to your state to perform rituals. Men and women are either tamei (unclean), ot tahor (clean).

Menses are just one of the things that render a woman tamei. Any uncontrolled excretion of body fluids will also do it. Being in the same structure as a dead body will do it. And a number of other things.

One of the best story I've heard to explain tamei and how it really does not mean unclean is this.

You come back from a vacation, open your fridge and find a dead, rotting squirrel in it. (after Elder cooks it :lfao You throw out all the food and wash and disenfect the fridge. By all accounts, it's clean and bacteria free. Will it ever feel 'clean' to you?

That's the state of tamei. It's an intangible.

 

[Blade96]

Because we're wired that way-men are distracted more than women, aroused more easily than women, and feel the urge more strongly than women: it's biology. Yes, we can control ourselves-I haven't been uncontrollably aroused at the sight of a woman's cleavage since I was maybe 16 years old, but I can remember what that was like. And I'm not even going to get into what happened with my exta-provocatively dressed 7th grade German teacher-except to say that I got nothing but A's in German, and often had to stay seated after class was over.....:lol: While nothing like that is likely to happen to me (as often) at nearly 50, it happened quite a bit before I turned 30, and it was

are men really biologically more so that way than women, or is it that society - and those religious beliefs again - makes us only THINK they are "men are horndogs" for example. I remember having a chat with a friend i had years ago (male) and he said "Women love that stuff as much as men. Its society that makes people think that we (men) are that way."

You come back from a vacation, open your fridge and find a dead, rotting squirrel in it. (after Elder cooks it :lfao You throw out all the food and wash and disenfect the fridge. By all accounts, it's clean and bacteria free. Will it ever feel 'clean' to you?

That's the state of tamei. It's an intangible.

Naw, i think he prefers cat, myself. :uhyeah:

 

[elder999]

are men really biologically more so that way than women, or is it that society - and those religious beliefs again - makes us only THINK they are "men are horndogs" for example. I remember having a chat with a friend i had years ago (male) and he said "Women love that stuff as much as men. Its society that makes people think that we (men) are that way."

"Love that stuff as much as men?" Sure. But it's usually different.

It's pretty much a given that men are quicker and easier to arouse than women. It's also pretty much a given that there are a variety of biological reasons for this-see this post for some of what I think the reasons behind this are.

Naw, i think he prefers cat, myself. :uhyeah:

No way! Squirrel is the shiznit! Miss it, though-the squirrels here in New Mexico are too small and few to bother with......your New York State, Arkansas or Louisiana squirrel, though?

Let's just say that I killed and ate a lot of squirrel and rabbit as a kid.....

 

[JDenver]

Well, I am no expert on aboriginal societies, so I would defer to you. However, most such societies I have read on include gender roles and a gendered division of labor. That's rarely a sign of egalitarianism. Nor could the woman you cited in your earlier experience give you a real reason for the division of the genders.

Elder already smartly addressed this, but thought I'd weigh in as well.

Men and women in Ojibway and Cree culture are honoured in different ways and have different roles in ceremony. Not superior and inferior roles, but roles that are reflected in the symbolic acts in ceremony. A woman cannot be a pipe carrier anymore than a man should do a water ceremony. The only sense of disharmony or inequality in it is thought about by white people.

Women are not 'unclean'. Their menstrual period is 'moon' time, certainly a reference to how, in some circles anyway, it's thought that women's cycles in prehistoric people were synchronized to the full moon cycle.

I think in contemporary society, in our sincere fervour to equalize all things, we've lost sight of how men and women are mentally, physically, emotionally, and possibly spiritually different (see the use of aboriginal four directions there?)

 

[kaizasosei]

I was at two services of different religions one in japan and one in europe and both had men and women separated. I personally, growing up catholic was accustomed to everyone being mixed-same at lds everyone's mixed up.

I have to say i found it refreshing to experience the separation or segregation. One good thing i found that it kept the women and the men more together with each other like a single team.
You could almost feel like even if you had a partner who was not present at the service, they are present in the other side somehow. More like a horde of women really- once you separate you really feel each others qualities better. Felt like having an army of moms and sisters on the other side.
Just my feeling with a few experiences. Haven't really considered the negative sides and probably haven't observed enough to be able to really disagree either way.



j

 

[Tez3]

Saying just that a mosque is being built is fairly vague, is there any info on who will be using it? Sunnis, Shia, Sufis or any of the other many forms of Islam?


When people talk of Muslims (and Jews for that matter) they often seem to think there's just one group but both Islam and Judaism are like Christianity in that there's many different views, sects and congregations.