Nope, and I understand. But, as I'd like to know more about it, my take on it is different!
Women in Systema
- Thread starter Roland
- Start date
Nope, and I understand. But, as I'd like to know more about it, my take on it is different!
There's a woman in my class who is very small, but she picks up stuff very quickly, and is already quite soft. She has some conditioning (not just cultural either) to overcome, but she is making great strides. I agree with the cultural influence being a factor, but as Arthur said, that can be used.
Besides the factors keeping women out of MA in general, there's also the fact that systema is not well-known. Most people who know of it are already involved in MA in which women are underrrperesented in the first place, and they represent a fraction of the MA community as a whole, ie most MA people have not heard of systema.
That said, I believe that with its emphasis on relaxation and whole body power, as well as the guideline of not forcing the issue (a very guy-ish thing), systema could be perhaps the ideal MA for females. I'll never forget getting mauled by Rybko's female students, one a tiny 15 year-old.
Besides the factors keeping women out of MA in general, there's also the fact that systema is not well-known. Most people who know of it are already involved in MA in which women are underrrperesented in the first place, and they represent a fraction of the MA community as a whole, ie most MA people have not heard of systema.
That said, I believe that with its emphasis on relaxation and whole body power, as well as the guideline of not forcing the issue (a very guy-ish thing), systema could be perhaps the ideal MA for females. I'll never forget getting mauled by Rybko's female students, one a tiny 15 year-old.
T
TheLady
Guest
I can't wait to train with Mikhail's female students! From the few videos I've seen, they're fluid, graceful and brutally effective
As for women in Systema, I can't even get my male friends to join a class...they take one look at my bruises and back away slowly :lol:
Janice
As for women in Systema, I can't even get my male friends to join a class...they take one look at my bruises and back away slowly :lol:
Janice
G
GouRonin
Guest
That's because you're a killer.
Arthur
Blue Belt
Welcome Jellyman!
Arthur
Arthur
T
TheLady
Guest
Gou, I think you have me :angel: confused with someone else...
G
GouRonin
Guest
I CALL LIAR ON YOU!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
:rofl:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
:rofl:
S
Sabrina
Guest
Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I'm new to this forum and I just stumbled on this topic and couldn't resist adding my two cents. I thought it might be good for people to hear another Systema gal's point of view on the art.
Why aren't there more women in Systema? I think there are a ton of reasons. As NSC pointed out, there is a social stigma involved. It's still not socially accepted that women can, should, or want to protect themselves. That's the man's job. Or if you do, you must be one of those femme nazi's that don't need a man at all.
I always get the shocked, "YOU take Martial Arts???? You don't seem the type!" or "I can't picture you doing that!" What exactly is that supposed to mean? I'm not the "type" to defend myself? Also, no offense guys, but I don't think many women training in the martial arts get ongoing support from their men. A lot of men feel threatened by a woman's desire to learn to protect herself. I've heard men tell women, "Oh, Honey, I can teach you all you need to know," or "That's what I'm here for." Unless both partners are training, men tend to get weird about it.
More reasons? I think both Arthur and NSC hit it on the head. Few women get past their own personal issues and how those issues affect their training. I know women that can't fathom taking a self-defense class for fear of breaking a nail. Also those women with the "I'll look pretty and he'll take care of me" attitudes that assume their men will protect and take care of them. Also those women that cannot face their own fears so live from one state of denial to another. Right on, Jennifer!
Those that do get past all that stuff, and unfortunately there aren't many, deal with EXACTLY what Arthur described:
In my opinion, #5 & #6 are the most common problems women find with Systema, but those factors are getting better with each seminar I attend. In San Diego I didn't have any trouble finding partners, which was really refreshing.
I have been learning Systema for a while now and loving it. I attend every seminar I can and this August will be my second trip to Russia. I think it's a shame that more women are not involved. In my opinion, Systema is perfect for women. As Arthur pointed out, we are not "equal" and a lot of women can't admit that. Women are typically smaller and weaker (muscles only )than men but a lot of them jump on an equality soapbox and pretend that doesn't matter. IT DOES MATTER. When a woman is learning to protect herself she must realize that she's most likely going to be up against a bigger, stronger man with intention on his side. She must identify her strengths and weaknesses and use them accordingly. I get so aggravated with
Martial Arts that convince women that they can protect themselves by using force on force. Or women that parade around with the machismo that is transparent even on men. Vladimir and I have had several discussions about women protecting themselves and he always stresses to me that women don't need to become men to be effective at protecting themselves. Systema never requires a woman to use force against force. As someone already pointed out, we are usually very receptive to learning the relaxed style of striking, the fluid body movements, and evasive maneuvers. Women play by different rules when fighting, and in San Diego Vladimir was showing me ways to "finish it quicker" BECAUSE I'm a woman. There's no playing around when it comes to women fighting men.
To me, a woman doing Systema has the potential to be more fluid, graceful, and brutally effective without ever losing her femininity. That's my goal, anyway!
Why aren't there more women in Systema? I think there are a ton of reasons. As NSC pointed out, there is a social stigma involved. It's still not socially accepted that women can, should, or want to protect themselves. That's the man's job. Or if you do, you must be one of those femme nazi's that don't need a man at all.
I always get the shocked, "YOU take Martial Arts???? You don't seem the type!" or "I can't picture you doing that!" What exactly is that supposed to mean? I'm not the "type" to defend myself? Also, no offense guys, but I don't think many women training in the martial arts get ongoing support from their men. A lot of men feel threatened by a woman's desire to learn to protect herself. I've heard men tell women, "Oh, Honey, I can teach you all you need to know," or "That's what I'm here for." Unless both partners are training, men tend to get weird about it.
More reasons? I think both Arthur and NSC hit it on the head. Few women get past their own personal issues and how those issues affect their training. I know women that can't fathom taking a self-defense class for fear of breaking a nail. Also those women with the "I'll look pretty and he'll take care of me" attitudes that assume their men will protect and take care of them. Also those women that cannot face their own fears so live from one state of denial to another. Right on, Jennifer!
Those that do get past all that stuff, and unfortunately there aren't many, deal with EXACTLY what Arthur described:
In my opinion, #5 & #6 are the most common problems women find with Systema, but those factors are getting better with each seminar I attend. In San Diego I didn't have any trouble finding partners, which was really refreshing.
I have been learning Systema for a while now and loving it. I attend every seminar I can and this August will be my second trip to Russia. I think it's a shame that more women are not involved. In my opinion, Systema is perfect for women. As Arthur pointed out, we are not "equal" and a lot of women can't admit that. Women are typically smaller and weaker (muscles only
)than men but a lot of them jump on an equality soapbox and pretend that doesn't matter. IT DOES MATTER. When a woman is learning to protect herself she must realize that she's most likely going to be up against a bigger, stronger man with intention on his side. She must identify her strengths and weaknesses and use them accordingly. I get so aggravated withMartial Arts that convince women that they can protect themselves by using force on force. Or women that parade around with the machismo that is transparent even on men. Vladimir and I have had several discussions about women protecting themselves and he always stresses to me that women don't need to become men to be effective at protecting themselves. Systema never requires a woman to use force against force. As someone already pointed out, we are usually very receptive to learning the relaxed style of striking, the fluid body movements, and evasive maneuvers. Women play by different rules when fighting, and in San Diego Vladimir was showing me ways to "finish it quicker" BECAUSE I'm a woman. There's no playing around when it comes to women fighting men.
To me, a woman doing Systema has the potential to be more fluid, graceful, and brutally effective without ever losing her femininity. That's my goal, anyway!
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
Well put Sabrina
I want my wife to learn Systema cause it looks like her jobs going to be taking her out of town more often now. I've told her that it's not like a traditional martial art and that it would be perfect for her or any women to learn.
Now to go put some of that bruise cream on from your elbow strikes in San Diego
Klondike
I want my wife to learn Systema cause it looks like her jobs going to be taking her out of town more often now. I've told her that it's not like a traditional martial art and that it would be perfect for her or any women to learn.
Now to go put some of that bruise cream on from your elbow strikes in San Diego
Klondike
K
kddk
Guest
This is an awesome thread!!! Great posts with lots of experience and insight. I have a few thoughts I would like to share related to some of the postings
Theyre a little disorganized as this thread has gone in so many directions
Kenpo Girl wrote:
I have been learning Systema for almost three months now (time flies when youre having fun). Up until last night I used to say the same thing about it being a lot of testosterone thing. There were a couple of reasons for this
1) I didnt understand why they were doing it and
2) I was scared sh**less about it being done to me.
Learning how to take a hit such as you describe is optional (from the classes Ive seen). After talking to TheLady last night while we watched one of the visitors to Vlads gallantly going through this training I came to a couple of conclusions. She explained it to me as learning how to breathe out the pain when getting a hit. Immediately I finally clued in and realized how useful this could be. Last week while training I got kicked a little harder than usual and had the wind knocked out of me. I continued to work with my partner trying to breathe and had immense trouble keeping myself upright. As distracted as I was trying to catch my breath I probably took any number of finishing hits (had they been full contact). So I daresay that I need to learn this technique of breathing through the hit if I truly want to increase my survivability skills. That being said Im not ready yet and thats OK. Its a voluntary thing and when Im ready I will. Nobody, in any Systema class, stands you up against a wall and pounds on you to train you to take a hit (well unless you ask J).
Roland wrote:
There is no truer statement for me. Ill give one brief example. I asked to learn to defend myself against a knife. What I was really asking for was to overcome fear I just didnt know it. One of my instructors did. I got what I needed but not how I wanted or asked for it. I ended up facing my fear in a totally unexpected manner and guess what??? It was hard but definitely what I needed. And in the end I got what I wanted too.
Jackal wrote:
and NSC wrote:
Absolutely. Nothing worth having is easy. Lifes not easy. Neither is Systema nor should it be as it teaches you to deal with life.
Arthur wrote:
and Sabrina wrote:
I am usually the only female in my class. This generally makes me the smallest person there. I am not a man nor do I want to be one. Nor do I want to be trained like one.
Let me explain I have done other martial arts where I have learned how to block, strike and use preformed moves to get out of holds and chokes. Let me tell you not a one of them worked when I came up against a guy twice my size with bad intent. The scenario training we did was geared towards men. Ie when I guy comes up and starts pushing you and calling you names you should do this. Guys do not attack women like this!!! Systema teaches me how to use my size to my advantage. There are no techniques to learn just different ways. I am learning how to move, how to escape whatever it takes to survive. There is no right way or wrong way. Systema teaches you to find your way (through guidance and direction with lots of creativity and ideas).
As to why more women dont take Systema my opinion FEAR!!! But if there is any female out there interested, take a deep breath and just go. You will learn to work with your fear and put it in its place which is definitely not in any Systema class that I have been to. No one has ever intentionally hurt me in any class and training is progressive. In such a short time I am a much happier and confident person. I also have not turned aggressive from too much testosterone influence nor have I turned into a passive-aggressive man-hater. I am still very much a female who likes to do her nails, dress nicely, etc. etc.
My humble but passionate opinion Respectfully yours,
Kddk
PS Too bad this thread is not on the Systema Forum. It addresses a lot of questions and concerns women have.
Edited at user's request. -Arnisador
Kenpo Girl wrote:
I have been learning Systema for almost three months now (time flies when youre having fun). Up until last night I used to say the same thing about it being a lot of testosterone thing. There were a couple of reasons for this
1) I didnt understand why they were doing it and
2) I was scared sh**less about it being done to me.
Learning how to take a hit such as you describe is optional (from the classes Ive seen). After talking to TheLady last night while we watched one of the visitors to Vlads gallantly going through this training I came to a couple of conclusions. She explained it to me as learning how to breathe out the pain when getting a hit. Immediately I finally clued in and realized how useful this could be. Last week while training I got kicked a little harder than usual and had the wind knocked out of me. I continued to work with my partner trying to breathe and had immense trouble keeping myself upright. As distracted as I was trying to catch my breath I probably took any number of finishing hits (had they been full contact). So I daresay that I need to learn this technique of breathing through the hit if I truly want to increase my survivability skills. That being said Im not ready yet and thats OK. Its a voluntary thing and when Im ready I will. Nobody, in any Systema class, stands you up against a wall and pounds on you to train you to take a hit (well unless you ask J).
Roland wrote:
There is no truer statement for me. Ill give one brief example. I asked to learn to defend myself against a knife. What I was really asking for was to overcome fear I just didnt know it. One of my instructors did. I got what I needed but not how I wanted or asked for it. I ended up facing my fear in a totally unexpected manner and guess what??? It was hard but definitely what I needed. And in the end I got what I wanted too.
Jackal wrote:
and NSC wrote:
Absolutely. Nothing worth having is easy. Lifes not easy. Neither is Systema nor should it be as it teaches you to deal with life.
Arthur wrote:
and Sabrina wrote:
I am usually the only female in my class. This generally makes me the smallest person there. I am not a man nor do I want to be one. Nor do I want to be trained like one.
Let me explain I have done other martial arts where I have learned how to block, strike and use preformed moves to get out of holds and chokes. Let me tell you not a one of them worked when I came up against a guy twice my size with bad intent. The scenario training we did was geared towards men. Ie when I guy comes up and starts pushing you and calling you names you should do this. Guys do not attack women like this!!! Systema teaches me how to use my size to my advantage. There are no techniques to learn just different ways. I am learning how to move, how to escape whatever it takes to survive. There is no right way or wrong way. Systema teaches you to find your way (through guidance and direction with lots of creativity and ideas).
As to why more women dont take Systema my opinion FEAR!!! But if there is any female out there interested, take a deep breath and just go. You will learn to work with your fear and put it in its place which is definitely not in any Systema class that I have been to. No one has ever intentionally hurt me in any class and training is progressive. In such a short time I am a much happier and confident person. I also have not turned aggressive from too much testosterone influence nor have I turned into a passive-aggressive man-hater. I am still very much a female who likes to do her nails, dress nicely, etc. etc.
My humble but passionate opinion Respectfully yours,
Kddk
PS Too bad this thread is not on the Systema Forum. It addresses a lot of questions and concerns women have.
Edited at user's request. -Arnisador
Arthur
Blue Belt
KDDK,
If you would like to post a link to it on the RMA forum, you have official permission to do so. I'll PM you the details.
Arthur (Site Admin out of his jurisdiction )
If you would like to post a link to it on the RMA forum, you have official permission to do so. I'll PM you the details.
Arthur (Site Admin out of his jurisdiction
)
OP
- Thread Starter
- #52
Wow this thread has taken off once again, with lots of new and great information, thank you all.
I think that most martial arts do not address the mental and emotional aspects of training and self-defense, they just jump in with the physical act of training. And yet our mental and emotional traits probally affect us more than any other physical 'problems'.
I believe that Systema does cover this in everyday training, so much so that any class can be an emotional, or phsycological rollercoaster ride.
Learning to face ones own individual fears is probally one of the biggest challenges, any others than you think worth mentioning?
I think that most martial arts do not address the mental and emotional aspects of training and self-defense, they just jump in with the physical act of training. And yet our mental and emotional traits probally affect us more than any other physical 'problems'.
I believe that Systema does cover this in everyday training, so much so that any class can be an emotional, or phsycological rollercoaster ride.
Learning to face ones own individual fears is probally one of the biggest challenges, any others than you think worth mentioning?
Originally posted by Arthur
Arthur (Site Admin out of his jurisdiction
We appreciate you sharing on our site! I lurk at the Russian Martial Art Web Board. The "Featured Posts" archive is an idea I'd like to adopt here.
-Arnisador
-MT Admin-
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
Cool arnisador, are you there under the same name or "undercover"?
Klondike
Klondike
I am not even registered--I drop in as a Guest and try to get more of an idea about the RMA. I visit maybe once a week and look for interesting threads!
R
Rommel
Guest
Thanks Kddk for posting the link to the Russianmartialart forum.
Thanks Arthur for approving it.
I now have a deeper understanding why my wife doesn't want to join me in learning systema. In addition to the excellent points brought up already, she said that she didn't want any other sweaty men touching her except me. She did study arnis with me and Combat Aikido. She will punch me, however, whenever I need to feel relaxed.
Thanks Arthur for approving it.
I now have a deeper understanding why my wife doesn't want to join me in learning systema. In addition to the excellent points brought up already, she said that she didn't want any other sweaty men touching her except me. She did study arnis with me and Combat Aikido. She will punch me, however, whenever I need to feel relaxed.
NoSuchChick
Yellow Belt
Rommel said:
Now THAT'S love!
Jennifer
Now THAT'S love!
Jennifer
S
Sabrina
Guest
Rommel,
Thanks for your input! I've heard similar responses from a lot of guys trying to convince their wives to train -- some ex-martial artists, some not.
Why, do you know, did your wife train with you in Arnis and Combat Aikido and not in Systema? Did she have a bad experience in one or both of those arts that made her lose interest? I'm not very familiar with other arts, so I'm not sure what her training was like. The sweaty men thing is always a valid point but I think we encounter that to some degree in any art.
This is a great thread, and I'd like to keep it alive with some other points of view -- maybe those that choose not to take Systema would share their side -- even ex-martial artists? We rarely get to hear from women AFTER the fact why they REALLY quit. We can only speculate. . . and I think that's how this post probably originated!
:shrug:
Thanks for your input! I've heard similar responses from a lot of guys trying to convince their wives to train -- some ex-martial artists, some not.
Why, do you know, did your wife train with you in Arnis and Combat Aikido and not in Systema? Did she have a bad experience in one or both of those arts that made her lose interest? I'm not very familiar with other arts, so I'm not sure what her training was like. The sweaty men thing is always a valid point
but I think we encounter that to some degree in any art. This is a great thread, and I'd like to keep it alive with some other points of view -- maybe those that choose not to take Systema would share their side -- even ex-martial artists? We rarely get to hear from women AFTER the fact why they REALLY quit. We can only speculate. . . and I think that's how this post probably originated!
:shrug:
R
Rommel
Guest
We took three classes of arnis until the male instructor accidently hit his wife, his assistant, in the eye with a stick. Nothing serious, but enough to make us find other pursuits.
When she took Combat Aikido, it was because we hired a private instructor who was the daughter of the Chief Instructor. She earned two belt levels until we moved to Canada.
I do show her a few things I picked up from my systema classes, but mainly a few techniques that Vladimir showed, ways to get out of certain holds just in case she might need it in the future.
Actually, the one I am training the most is my 6 year old daughter. I make it into a game and she loves it.
When she took Combat Aikido, it was because we hired a private instructor who was the daughter of the Chief Instructor. She earned two belt levels until we moved to Canada.
I do show her a few things I picked up from my systema classes, but mainly a few techniques that Vladimir showed, ways to get out of certain holds just in case she might need it in the future.
Actually, the one I am training the most is my 6 year old daughter. I make it into a game and she loves it.
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
The sweaty men thing is always a valid point
Sorry about that
Klondike
