Women in Systema

[Roland]

All joking aside, maybe you could give us some real feedback?!

Jackal - I think I understand what you mean. The rise to the occasion was a good thought, and I know you were not saying we are or should be weeding people out.
I just feel that Systema, they way I have been introduced to it, would be a good system to learn for women, and was wondering why there are not many out there. I feel this way pretty much because of the same arguments you give. That is is a personal system of survival, that one must rise to the occasion, and that eveyone's experience in unique & personal.
Really, most martial arts or even self-defense courses, teach people to follow the leader, where Systema asks you to follow yourself.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Jackal
My meaning was that Systema training has a way of making one rise to the occasion rather than lie back in the comfort that if you're not paying attention, the other person isn't going to hit you.
If the student is afraid of water but wants to learn how to swim, they can't learn how on the beach. The instructor will be in the water to help them only if they start to drown, not just if they feel uneasy in the water. If you just take baby steps in and you get nervous, you can just wade back to shore. The idea is to make the person feel somewhat uncomfortable, so they don't have a safe and easy out. In that state, the unconscious survival mechanisms that we all have suppressed in our cushioned society begin to emerge. It's those instincts which are then explored and refined so as to prepare the student to rely on himself/herself in a real survival situation.
It's the mindset that gets explored first so that the body can be trained realistically.
As for weeding out those who aren't good enough, that's not the case at all. I've taught small women, people in wheelchairs, a man with cerebral palsy...they all gained tremendously using Systema concepts because they learned how to tailor all movements to their unique situations and then realized that their only limitations were based on their creativity.
My claim was that Systema is not like a sport martial art where people can just go to relax and work out after a hard day and not have to struggle physically or emotionally. To make it such an environment would be a great disservice to those whose professions (protection, law enforcement) depend on the sense of realism maintained in the classroom. (Vladimir said Systema is not a martial art - it is a system of survival - there's a big difference) Many are drawn to The System, myself included, because they feel that it is the last refuge to truly prepare themselves for any hardship or confrontation they might encounter.
I trained for 13 or so years in several different martial arts before finding Systema and was deeply affected by how misled I'd been in some those other systems (where the level of the class was brought down to the student rather than the other way around). I apologize if I seem somewhat hard-edged about the subject - I'm not usually like that. I just get a bit defensive when the concept of "Systema for the masses" is addressed. That's what killed nearly every art taught in America today.
I encourage everyone to study Systema and rise to the occasion. It's taken my skills, abilities and general outlook in life to a place I'd never imagined they could be.

:iws:
Wow...a great post. Possibly one of the best I have read in a long time. Thank you.

 

[TheLady]

"Systema is not for the average person."

The classes are very intimidating for any newcomer but it's worse for women...not only are we generally smaller and weaker than men, we haven't been conditioned to be physically aggressive.

I don't know why the other women stay, but I enjoy beating on Gou :hammer:


Janice

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by TheLady
"Systema is not for the average person."

True. So many people get frustrated by the lack of a framework that they cannot stay with it. It also isn't an art that lends itself to paying the bills if you want to open a school.

Originally posted by TheLady
The classes are very intimidating for any newcomer but it's worse for women...not only are we generally smaller and weaker than men, we haven't been conditioned to be physically aggressive.

Something that I noticed you have no problem with. For such a petite lady you hit pretty hard.

Imagine this scenario...

Janice - "Hi Doug, how are you today?"

Me - "Great!"

**Janice punches me in the gut and I fall to the floor mewling like a newborn puppy**

Janice - "Great to see you again."

**Vlad walks over and looks at me on the floor writhing in pain**

Vlad - "...breathe..."

**Vlad pats Janice on the shoulder and turns to the rest of the class**

Vlad - "Ok! Let's go!"

Originally posted by TheLady
I don't know why the other women stay, but I enjoy beating on Gou :hammer:
Janice

Dear God. Make janice stop hurting me. Amen.

 

[Roland]

Please feel free to add more as you see fit.
Thank you again.

 

[Arthur]

Hmm... want to get in on this thread but its gone in so many excellent directions.

We don't have too many women, but we have some. Currently NSC is a regular and always there, and we have Vicki who goes to a decent effort to drive up a minimum of once a month. We also have our newest female member (our resident poster Dan's Daughter) who just started last week.

In general like to have women in class, I think it tends to make everyone a liitle better. If you work it right you can use gender roles and prejudice to create excellent training results, while simultaneously using the training to help some people get over those issues.

Its really great when you have women students who don't mind playing with those roles and using them to enhance training and insight. Example... you have a big "tough guy" in class who always uses lots of muscle. I love to put those guys with the smallest women in class. Sometimes the muscle use goes away immediately. Other times a few well placed words (assuming the woman is open to the stuff I mention above) can really do the trick. Usually all you have to say is to the muscle head is... "Gee, She's just a tiny little woman, and you need to use all that strength just to throw her? You'd think you could easily down her without straining?"

That usually decreases the muscle tension right away. Unfortunately there are some women, who'd freak if you said that. Of course they aren't concerned for any one elses training if there like that... and consequently won't last in Systema.

So I find that women in class often create a nice check and balance system for excessive macho crap. Though on occasion, the macho-crap flows backwards, and we have women who pick it up from the guys. :shrug:

Why aren't there more women in martial arts... several reasons. Some of those are:

1) culture hasn't told them that taking care of themselves physically is there job. Its changing some... maybe.

2) most commercial martial arts either cater to men (in design, interest, etc)

3) martial arts that do cater to women either emphasize aspects that aren't very good for fighting/self-defense

4) they are really man hating clubs that perpetuate female victimization, while pretending to fight back against evil men. These clubs while claiming "empowerment" point out the defciencies in females rather than strengths and and teach them to ramp up their anger... leaving them just as frightened and a lot more angry

5) There is a gender inequity in classes, and women are treated like second class partners.

6) Men and Women are differnt beings, they have dofferent strengths and weakness in general. However, political correctness without the temperence of wisdom has created a situation where everybody has to pretend they are "equal". hey aren't, so any given class that attempts to pretend they are, will leave one of the sexes with subpar training. Being that men are the primary consumer, women tend to get the short end of the stick.

None of these things are really good for getting women to stick with a martial art learning process. On the bright side, all those issues tend to really weed out the crowd, and those that stay are usually exceptional people.

Arthur

 

[NoSuchChick]

Arthur and I were just talking about this the other day...

:soapbox:

I can't speak for every woman, but for myself I think there are many varied reasons why there aren't a lot of women practicing Systema.

As many have already pointed out, the ratio of women to men in any MA is low. I think there is a societal stigma, which becomes incorporated as a personal stigma, in most women.

Consider that most of the role models for girls/women (via media and entertainment) is conflicting:the "ideal" woman is a 6'2", blond haired, blue eyed, 100 lb supermodel-sex-kitten without a brain in her head; OR is a CEO of a profitable company, a mom to 3 perfectly behaved children, and a wife for all men to envy. And let's face it; even that successful CEO gets jealous when her man gets whiplash looking at the supermodel strolling by on the beach.

What does this tell us? It pays to be stupid and beautiful, and let someone else take care of you and do all the hard work. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm not saying I subscribe to it... but you've got to know it exists. I have met women who's only purpose in life was to "land a rich man." It's sad, really. This is not a woman who will be interested in working hard to learn to defend herself... she may, however, take Tae Bo in an effort to stay stick-thin, and convince herself that that will protect her as well.

Even in the more independent women, there is still a some "old school" philosophy about a woman's role in life. I know plenty of women who work hard, pay their own way, and are fairly successful. However, the thought of learning to fight to defend themselves is distasteful. That's what they have boyfriends for. With equal rights comes equal responsibility.

Then, there are the women who do want to learn to defend themselves... or at least they say that is what they want. However, they don't want to face their fears; and let's face it- you can't really defend yourself if you can't master your own fear. There are a lot of people, men and women, with "baggage"; and many lead productive lives despite it. This is just one of those areas where you can't suppress all those issues and act like they don't exist.

I don't think that the instructors are to blame for there not being a lot of women in Systema. It is a tough hurdle for most women to overcome just to want to learn to fight, and actually follow through; an instructor can't make a woman want that in earnest. And when you consider that millions of women pay billions of dollars for the "easy way out diet pill" rather than working out, most martial arts instructors will have their work cut out for them when a woman signs up for a class. We have a track record for looking for the "easy way".

Also, many women live with denial (women who stay with abusive men, comes to mind). These women "want" to believe something so much, that they will ignore the obvious evidence which would refute it.

"My scale must be broken...
Even if he hits me, I KNOW he really loves me...
The last 5 products I bought didn't work, but a doctor endorses THIS one!...
But this guy told me that in just one year I'd be a black belt!...
etc."

This, unfortunately, leads them to believe advertisements for the latest trends or quick fixes.

And lets not forget how many women buy into the courses which pander to their emotions of fear and anger, as Arthur pointed out? They tell women that they will empower them, and then turn them into the agressors which they initially hated. Now they're really pissed off, and they're going to start a fight they can't finish.

I could go on and on, but I think that I have probably suitably horrified enough of you with my candor.

Jennifer

 

[Arthur]

I could go on and on, but I think that I have probably suitably horrified enough of you with my candor.

I guess that's one of the reasons I asked you to marry me.... great thing bout boards like this... NSC and I live together... but we haven't talked about this... cool to see what tyhe anonymous version of people you "know" ... "think"/

Arthur

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by NoSuchChick
It pays to be stupid and beautiful

I'll say, but I wouldn't want to live any other way.

 

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by NoSuchChick
Arthur and I were just talking about this the other day...

:soapbox:

I can't speak for every woman, but for myself I think there are many varied reasons why there aren't a lot of women practicing Systema.

As many have already pointed out, the ratio of women to men in any MA is low. I think there is a societal stigma, which becomes incorporated as a personal stigma, in most women.

Consider that most of the role models for girls/women (via media and entertainment) is conflicting:the "ideal" woman is a 6'2", blond haired, blue eyed, 100 lb supermodel-sex-kitten without a brain in her head; OR is a CEO of a profitable company, a mom to 3 perfectly behaved children, and a wife for all men to envy. And let's face it; even that successful CEO gets jealous when her man gets whiplash looking at the supermodel strolling by on the beach.

What does this tell us? It pays to be stupid and beautiful, and let someone else take care of you and do all the hard work. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm not saying I subscribe to it... but you've got to know it exists. I have met women who's only purpose in life was to "land a rich man." It's sad, really. This is not a woman who will be interested in working hard to learn to defend herself... she may, however, take Tae Bo in an effort to stay stick-thin, and convince herself that that will protect her as well.

Even in the more independent women, there is still a some "old school" philosophy about a woman's role in life. I know plenty of women who work hard, pay their own way, and are fairly successful. However, the thought of learning to fight to defend themselves is distasteful. That's what they have boyfriends for. With equal rights comes equal responsibility.

Then, there are the women who do want to learn to defend themselves... or at least they say that is what they want. However, they don't want to face their fears; and let's face it- you can't really defend yourself if you can't master your own fear. There are a lot of people, men and women, with "baggage"; and many lead productive lives despite it. This is just one of those areas where you can't suppress all those issues and act like they don't exist.

I don't think that the instructors are to blame for there not being a lot of women in Systema. It is a tough hurdle for most women to overcome just to want to learn to fight, and actually follow through; an instructor can't make a woman want that in earnest. And when you consider that millions of women pay billions of dollars for the "easy way out diet pill" rather than working out, most martial arts instructors will have their work cut out for them when a woman signs up for a class. We have a track record for looking for the "easy way".

Also, many women live with denial (women who stay with abusive men, comes to mind). These women "want" to believe something so much, that they will ignore the obvious evidence which would refute it.

"My scale must be broken...
Even if he hits me, I KNOW he really loves me...
The last 5 products I bought didn't work, but a doctor endorses THIS one!...
But this guy told me that in just one year I'd be a black belt!...
etc."

This, unfortunately, leads them to believe advertisements for the latest trends or quick fixes.

And lets not forget how many women buy into the courses which pander to their emotions of fear and anger, as Arthur pointed out? They tell women that they will empower them, and then turn them into the agressors which they initially hated. Now they're really pissed off, and they're going to start a fight they can't finish.

I could go on and on, but I think that I have probably suitably horrified enough of you with my candor.

Jennifer

WONDERFUL post, Jen!

 

[Roland]

Great post.

The only thing I saw that I myself might want to question would be about not blaming the Instructors.
While I am not saying that they should be blamed, not all of them anyway, but it seems to me it is the instructor's job to help the student become aware, and guide them, and be paitient and understanding and help students through whatever they need to overcome. We all have things we need to overcome I think. It seems to me that awareness is really the key. Being able to identify and help someone through what ever it is.
Training should be about discovery, about one self, and others.
I believe your instructor should be a guide, and coach more so than a teacher.
I do not beleive people should be spoon fed either, but it seems to me that most instructors take the easy way out when teaching, and in a lot of cases only the physically strong, gifted or stupid (that would be 'me') ones who like to be beat make it through more than a couple of classes. So I just wonder about Martial Arts in general, and how we can improve this.
I really enjoy The System, and I wonder how I can help others.

I think I may have gone off a bit here and will end it for now, I hope we can get some more possitive feedback from everyone here.
Hope I have not offended anyone, just trying to learn and grow, for both myself and my students. All of whom I consider to be just as important, if not more so, than family!

 

[Jay Bell]

While I am not saying that they should be blamed, not all of them anyway, but it seems to me it is the instructor's job to help the student become aware, and guide them, and be paitient and understanding and help students through whatever they need to overcome.

I agree with this to an extent. But honestly, a man doesn't know the issues that a woman faces. Sure...we can be told, read about them, what have you...but do we ever truly understand?

Even some of the best teachers in the world would have people crossing the lines of gender and preparing them for what they will face.

 

[Roland]

I agree 100%



But I also say we could probally all do a lot better.

 

[Jay Bell]

Agreed!

 

[GouRonin]

I think teachers should be like a coach or an advisor but not in anything other than the art they teach.

There are to many teachers out there who overstep their bounds and use their position to make demands or decisions for people that are not theirs to make. The sad thing is that there are only too many students willing to trade off these decisions and relinquish their power to these teachers.

Often the ones most affected are women. I'm not sure if this is because of the patriarichal nature of our society but there seems to be a power trade off that people fall into in the field of martial arts, which women are notably affected by.

To top off all of this there is nothing stopping any tom, dick, or harry, from opening his own martial arts school. A piece of cloth around one's waist does not ensure a good teacher. In fact, there are far too many poor quality teachers out there.

Which is one of the reasons I like systema. To be recognized by Vlad, you have to go to Vlad. If you're teaching systema and you're not acknowledging or have been trained by Vlad or his instructors you're soon found out. It just makes it harder to cheat the system as many martial artists seem to do.
:soapbox:

 

[Roland]

Gou is so right!
Really, it is just another reason for women to be be very careful and cautious of martial arts schools and instructors.

While I think there has to be a healthy chain of command, and that as an instructor you have to be careful on who you let get too close too soon, off the floor, most of my students are also very good friends.

 

[NoSuchChick]

I agree that there are some bad instructors out there, I've seen my share (although, I have to say, not so much with Systema). This only contributes in a small way to the lack of women in MAs.

There are those instructors that honestly believe that they are teaching "the" martial art, and it's just not (these instructors are at least "honest" in their teaching). There are instructors who don't really fully understand what they teach (via the fast-track to teaching method), and they pass off poor teaching as a fault of a clumsy new student. Then there are just plain old dishonest instructors just out to make a buck.

As far as women goes, most women see teachers as authority figures. And just like with mechanics, lawyers, and doctors, they usually wind up getting taken for a ride and a LOT of money if they don't challenge the old fashioned "thou shalt not question thine instructor" philosophy. If I'm not wrong (please correct me if I am) I believe that there are some MAs in which it is unforgivable for ANYONE to challenge the teachings of the instructor...

I think there is also an issue with low self-confidence/esteem in women when dealing with instructors, where women feel, "who am I to question that what he says? HE'S the instructor." I have found that all too often women have to be TAUGHT to stand up and say, "I disagree". This is a problem, as no dishonest instructor (or fraud of any kind for that matter) will ever tell a student that it's ok to disagree with him, and/or encourage her to do so. Catch 22.

In all honesty, though, I feel that most women wouldn't even know if they had a good or bad instructor, so that point is kind of moot. That is the truth of all people though: if you have never done it before (which is why you approach an instructor for lessons) you can't tell whether he's good or bad: you've got nothing to compare him to. It is only the few who research it well beforehand (which is rare), or the few who stay with it long enough to know that what they are learning isn't as high of a quality as something else they've seen, that recognize a "good" instructor.

However, I think that most women approach MAs as another form of excercise, or for self-defense as a post-traumatic knee-jerk reaction: and in either situation, they usually won't stay with it, regardless of how good the instructor or art is.

It's a shame. I get much more out of Systema than any of my girlfriends get out of their "post trauma" therapy, yoga, and aerobics, all put together.

You can lead a horse to water...

Jennifer

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Which is one of the reasons I like systema. To be recognized by Vlad, you have to go to Vlad. If you're teaching systema and you're not acknowledging or have been trained by Vlad or his instructors you're soon found out. It just makes it harder to cheat the system as many martial artists seem to do.

But the problem with this is that it doesn't scale--it's good for you that the system is held to a high standard but it makes it harder for it to spread to where I am! There's a trade-off, and if I was near the source I'd feel the same as you I'm sure but from here it doesn't sound as good!

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by arnisador
But the problem with this is that it doesn't scale--it's good for you that the system is held to a high standard but it makes it harder for it to spread to where I am! There's a trade-off, and if I was near the source I'd feel the same as you I'm sure but from here it doesn't sound as good!

Dunno what to tell you. I myself have traveled to find what I want and can get. I appreciate that Systema has a higher standard than many martial arts I have experienced. I look at the Kenpo schools here in town and I wince with pain. Arnisador, you and I have conversations regarding our opinions on Kenpo in your town and mine. Would I want this to happen to Systema?

 

[Arthur]

Access to Systema instructors is much better than it was 3-4 years ago. If you live in the USA, you can probably find one within a 6 hour drive from most places.

This is a lot better than it was... and it means people can get on with some study. Its not unreasonabel to drive 6 hours once or twice a month to get quality instruction in a quality art.

Systema is one of those arts where a little instruction and a lot of homework can really pay off.

Most instructors are aware of the issue of limited access, and go out of there way to treat long distance visitors with a little extra respect and attention.

Arthur