Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
You are absolutely right. The footage would never be broadcast, the way the footage from 9-11 is rarely rebroadcast.
Women in combat arms? Infantry, Armor, ...
- Thread starter billc
- Start date
It has never been about courage, or the ability to move a finger to pull a trigger, at least not for me. It has been getting that finger on the trigger where it needs to be, for extended periods of time, with extreme physical hardship, poor diet, lack of sleep, and then, pulling the trigger after extreme physical exertion.
I watched the eco-challenge a number of years ago. Near the end of the race, more than one of the women competitors was falling out due to the extreme physical demands, over a period of time. Sure, men dropped out, one guy stepped on uneven ground and wrecked his knee. The women, on the other hand, were just running out of endurance.
I also saw an episode of the show Cops, in New Orleans. Two female police officers went into a bar and had to arrest an unruly guy. He didn't exactly fight them, he just wouldn't let them put the cuffs on him. They needed assistance from the bouncers in the bar to get the guy to comply.
I think actual infantry combat duty would not be possible for a female soldier. Are there some exceptions to this, of course, but if this experiment is to be tried, the physical standards would have to be the same, as well as the physical training in both basic training and the infantry training. If you don't submit them to that minimum level of training and its expectations, you would be risking the lives of those women and the men they serve with.
Elder, if you look at the article I posted, it goes into the service of Israeli women in infantry units. The quote you posted is from the one article I posted and there is the other one that points out the Caracel unit. Getting caught in the middle of a battle is not the same thing as going into the battle with the intention of sticking in the fight till the end.
The biatholon is grueling. However, the competitors go into the competition with good health, good diet, plenty of rest and odds are having rested the night before the competition. Now imagine weeks living without any of those things and still having to compete at the same level, competing against men.
Still, no one has been able or willing to explain why women and men aren't competing in soccer, rugby, football, basketball, baseball, or cricket, on the same teams and against men. Do women biathalon competitors compete against male competitors or just other women?
I watched the eco-challenge a number of years ago. Near the end of the race, more than one of the women competitors was falling out due to the extreme physical demands, over a period of time. Sure, men dropped out, one guy stepped on uneven ground and wrecked his knee. The women, on the other hand, were just running out of endurance.
I also saw an episode of the show Cops, in New Orleans. Two female police officers went into a bar and had to arrest an unruly guy. He didn't exactly fight them, he just wouldn't let them put the cuffs on him. They needed assistance from the bouncers in the bar to get the guy to comply.
I think actual infantry combat duty would not be possible for a female soldier. Are there some exceptions to this, of course, but if this experiment is to be tried, the physical standards would have to be the same, as well as the physical training in both basic training and the infantry training. If you don't submit them to that minimum level of training and its expectations, you would be risking the lives of those women and the men they serve with.
Elder, if you look at the article I posted, it goes into the service of Israeli women in infantry units. The quote you posted is from the one article I posted and there is the other one that points out the Caracel unit. Getting caught in the middle of a battle is not the same thing as going into the battle with the intention of sticking in the fight till the end.
The biatholon is grueling. However, the competitors go into the competition with good health, good diet, plenty of rest and odds are having rested the night before the competition. Now imagine weeks living without any of those things and still having to compete at the same level, competing against men.
Still, no one has been able or willing to explain why women and men aren't competing in soccer, rugby, football, basketball, baseball, or cricket, on the same teams and against men. Do women biathalon competitors compete against male competitors or just other women?
I do not wish to put words in his mouth, but I have some understanding of what he was addressing.
Shooting in competition is nothing like shooting on the range in Marine Corps boot camp on Qualification Day.
I was at Camp Pendleton for my rifle range training while I was in boot camp; I watched a young recruit blow his brains out. I think I had actually forgotten that until now; it was a long time ago, and the Drill Instructors were screaming and yelling for us to turn our heads and not look at the mess, and I did as I was told. I think I may have suppressed that particular memory, how strange. The guy was not in my platoon, but he was in my series. I did not know him and that was the last I heard of the episode.
When you are in Marine Corps boot camp, there are certain things that you must do to graduate. One of them is to qualify with the rifle as at least a Marksman. To be 'unqualified' or 'to go unk' in the parlance, is unacceptable; it means you will not graduate with your platoon, you are not a Marine, and you will repeat with another platoon. If you still fail to qualify, you will be discharged and set home as being "Not Suitable for Military Service." To a young man, perhaps 17 or 18 years old, immature, and completely terrorized by 13 weeks of spirit-crushing psychological warfare, this can be a terrible time. It's not like not winning a trophy at the Olympics, it's like being told you suck at being a human.
Yeah, this sounds horrible to non-Marines; even people from other branches of the service have told me that. Other branches have their special forces and such; but failing is being sent back to your unit. Crushing blow, but not the same.
To go unk is like the worst thing in the world to a Marine recruit. I can understand why some just can't face the notion of it.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
May be so they have quotas to fill and if you can breath and sign your name and not currently on probation the Marines will take you.
I didnt say all woman do, I said usually the ones that didnt qualify did. I trained over 7000 recruits and about 1/2 of them were female while I was on the island. I regularlly was giving the female platoons because I was able to get more then normal to pass quals. I can say in my personal exp. and talking to other PMIs (primary marksmanship instructor) the #1 problem for female recruits that did not qual was emotional issues.
The amount of training a professional Biathlete gets is FAR more then a regular military person gets. Anyone can shoot well if thats all they do.
I also didnt say woman cant shoot the comment was in general woman can shoot better then men. Thats just not true I was a firearms instructor in the military and now in the police department and I can tell you in general men shoot better. Ive seen woman who shoot well my wife can shoot pretty good. Ive seen ALOT more that cant. There will always be exceptions to every rule but in general this holds true. I know female police officers that are afraid to even touch their guns they only take them out of their holster to qualify once a year. I also know woman that are on SWAT teams and shoot almost every day.
Like I said Im not against woman in combat I just would expect the tests to get in to be the same. If they are able to pass the same tests as I do then they have the same right as I do to be there. My view may be differnt then some men only because I do work with females in a "mans" profession and Ive seen many woman do a great job. My wife was a very good cop. She is small so she was not as stong as others but she was right next to me when we were being shot at by a crazy old man haveing WWII flash backs and thought we were the german army coming to get him. He fired 12 rounds at us one hitting a door 14 inches away from where I was standing and I only saw 1 officer turn and run away and it was a male. So I know they can do it just think it needs to be equal requirements for everyone regardles of sex or age.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Quite common actually I saw quite a few of these happen. Had a one of my own recruits do it about 10 feet from me. Sad part was he though he failed but the kid keeping his score added wrong and he actually passed but it was too late.
As you know, the pressure to not 'go unk' is unlike any other.
I shot 'possible' back to the beginning of the 500 yard mark. Then I blew it. Shot a 216, I believe. One more point and I would have qualified Expert, instead I was a Sharpshooter. My PMI and my DI were very ticked off at me. I did lots of bends and thrusts for that.
Bili, I take it you have never been on any military exercise out in the field? It's fine for an armchair warrior to talk about what they think women can and can't do but unless you've actually seen it for yourself you are talking about something that the directors of the film/tv show want you to see, slanted in such a way as to make dramatic viewing. As for the Biathlon I was discussing a direct comparison to Ballen's comments about women freezing under pressure at the ranges, not being on exercise or deployment.
Before going on deployment there are endless exercises, for our troops this is in Kenya for the heat, Canada for the live firing, Salisbury Plain and Otterburn for the buggeration factor. there's the Afghan specific training also. http://www.newstoday.co.uk/1461/2011/06/troops-train-at-afghan-village-in-norfolk/
All the troops male and female perform under the pressure of sleep deprivation and extreme physical activity. Poor diet doesn't come into anymore btw, hasn't for a long time the rations are specially designed to provide the calories needed for such work. they carry the rations with them and are unlikely to not have them. they are trained specifically for the job in hand, currently deployment in Afghan. Also as part of the exercises they have to deal with casualties, this is where a bunch of former soldiers now amputees come into their own, they act as very realistic casualties. the troops are well trained, well prepared and being gay or female has very little to do with the way they perform.
The Israeli army is not a professional one, it's a citizen army, in fact it's a defence force. It bears no resemblance to either the British or American forces and any comparisons expecially when it comes to whether there should be female soldiers or not are basically pointless. Far better to look at other professional armies rather than the IDF.
Before going on deployment there are endless exercises, for our troops this is in Kenya for the heat, Canada for the live firing, Salisbury Plain and Otterburn for the buggeration factor. there's the Afghan specific training also. http://www.newstoday.co.uk/1461/2011/06/troops-train-at-afghan-village-in-norfolk/
All the troops male and female perform under the pressure of sleep deprivation and extreme physical activity. Poor diet doesn't come into anymore btw, hasn't for a long time the rations are specially designed to provide the calories needed for such work. they carry the rations with them and are unlikely to not have them. they are trained specifically for the job in hand, currently deployment in Afghan. Also as part of the exercises they have to deal with casualties, this is where a bunch of former soldiers now amputees come into their own, they act as very realistic casualties. the troops are well trained, well prepared and being gay or female has very little to do with the way they perform.
The Israeli army is not a professional one, it's a citizen army, in fact it's a defence force. It bears no resemblance to either the British or American forces and any comparisons expecially when it comes to whether there should be female soldiers or not are basically pointless. Far better to look at other professional armies rather than the IDF.
I stand by my thoughts that if you have people blowing their brains out because they didn't pass a test then they aren't the calibre of recruits that should be going through the training. Female soldiers should not have any more emotional issues than male recruits, again I would blame the weeding out procedures. Someone is going wrong somewhere along the line. I would even look at the training, our Royal marine training is longer and more intensive thatn your marines but it doesn't have soldiers blowing their brains out. the course looks to encourage maturity, self deicpline and decision making skills as much as teachning them to be the brilliant soldiers they are, it's not about the old thing of destroying them to rebuild it's about training to be the best, as they say being a Royal marine Commando is a state of mind. I've had a lot to do with them, training with them, as well as working with them. They don't recruit silly young boys, they recruit people they can teach skills to who will lead as well as work on their own, screaming instructors doesn't make for mature soldiers. They don't fold up because they failed a shooting test, they man up and redo it. This isn't an attack on American Marines but we train our soldiers differently and for longer. It's what works for us.
The women who make up the British Biathlon squad are all serving soldiers. The fitness standards in the military are the same for men and women as I've already shown.
The women who make up the British Biathlon squad are all serving soldiers. The fitness standards in the military are the same for men and women as I've already shown.
Of course teaching Royal Marines this way leads to this. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-430251/Pictures-Marines-strap-chopper-daring-rescue.html
You have your ways, we have ours. This is not Sparta. It's better than that.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
So I think I understand, and considering what the Marine Corps turns out, I don't think it is a bad thing they do in making Marines.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
I think that is pretty much it. Bill will correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Marine idea is that whatever they get at boot camp, 8 weeks later they expect to graduate lifelong Marines... or they go away. It is unfortunate that some chose a final solution for going away.
The other thing, like airborne, is that they are light infantry and yet they are given missions. Their missions are never, if you can, try, we wish. They are told to go do something. If something gets in the way, they eliminate it or skirt it, as seems best to complete the mission. If they seem to have been given an impossible mission, that may take a little longer, but it will be done. That is a mind set.
I don't doubt your Marines are good Tez3, they have proven they are. I think it is like Bill said, we just do it differently. BTW, are your Marines considered a separate entity? Technically, US Marines are not a Branch, but they are often treated that way. In fact, they are under the US Navy. They are also sometimes called upon to do things other military such as US Army and US Airforce, cannot, due to US law.
My sister is a marine. Or would it be "was"? You fellas who served as Marines, are you still Marines? Anyway ...
I just want to put out there that she was harassed and many attempts were made to sexually subdue her. She went in expecting it (as I think most women do) but when she reported the attempts was told she needed to put her emotional issues aside and go back to her barracks. Nothing was ever done. She was cited with emotional issues though she had none other than the complete disgust that nothing was done about sexual misconduct. So having listened intently to my uncles (all WWII vets), my father (also WWII vet), friends who served in Vietnam and others who served in Iraq, I have to keep a hill of salt nearby when I read about "emotional issues" being the cause of failure in miltary females.
Again - this is based on stories I've heard, with all due respect.
I just want to put out there that she was harassed and many attempts were made to sexually subdue her. She went in expecting it (as I think most women do) but when she reported the attempts was told she needed to put her emotional issues aside and go back to her barracks. Nothing was ever done. She was cited with emotional issues though she had none other than the complete disgust that nothing was done about sexual misconduct. So having listened intently to my uncles (all WWII vets), my father (also WWII vet), friends who served in Vietnam and others who served in Iraq, I have to keep a hill of salt nearby when I read about "emotional issues" being the cause of failure in miltary females.
Again - this is based on stories I've heard, with all due respect.
The Royal Marines come under the Royal Navy, been going since the 17th century but consider themselves separate. The reason we can make our training better is numbers, according to Wiki you have 203,000 active personnel in the Marine Corps, the Royal Marines total 6840. The courses are small, last for 38 weeks and are intensive with a high ratio of instructors to recruits. It picks it's recruits carefully, no whingers or immature kids. When you have over 200,000 it must very different, we don't need to do the breaking them, building them thing, if they've got as far as the Commando Training Centre then they want to be the best, I mean really want it. Of course not all pass and get the green beret but those that don't rarely if ever kill themselves after all there's always the army!
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
There is no such thing as an ex-marine
I think based upon all the experience posted of those of you who have dealt directly with women in frontline situations in training or in the field, it reads to me that even if *most* women are not emotionally cut for this kind of work (and that must be acknowledged by us all), still there are *many* who are (and that must also be acknowledged, just as some men are not cut for this kind of work, surely?) Those women who are emotionally right for this work should be given the same treatment, offered neither favour nor prejudice and the same training (including PT requirements) as their male counterparts, otherwise they are being trained to be lesser soldiers; it might be said that they are then being trained to fail.
I think that *these* women who complete a gender-blind training will have proven theirselves by the same standards as male soldiers must. If they fail then they have failed through incompetence and unsuitability for the task -as it should be for male soldiers- and they have not failed by virtue of their gender. However for those women that pass training there is no reason why the same duties cannot be deployed. After that training process we cannot say yes and but they are women and so will not be capable of making decisions in the theatre and because the same is true of anyone regardless of gender. These women that have passed gender-blind training and are proven "cut" for the infantry duty will surely be hitting the field in exactly the same condition as their male counterparts.
I think it is overgeneralising to put gender preconditions before training even begins then potentially good female soldiers will never be reach the stage of giving the kind of service they can and want to give. Surely that is not in any nation's best interest?
I think that *these* women who complete a gender-blind training will have proven theirselves by the same standards as male soldiers must. If they fail then they have failed through incompetence and unsuitability for the task -as it should be for male soldiers- and they have not failed by virtue of their gender. However for those women that pass training there is no reason why the same duties cannot be deployed. After that training process we cannot say yes and but they are women and so will not be capable of making decisions in the theatre and because the same is true of anyone regardless of gender. These women that have passed gender-blind training and are proven "cut" for the infantry duty will surely be hitting the field in exactly the same condition as their male counterparts.
I think it is overgeneralising to put gender preconditions before training even begins then potentially good female soldiers will never be reach the stage of giving the kind of service they can and want to give. Surely that is not in any nation's best interest?
I have to agree; said it for years.
Yes, except our boot camp is 13 weeks long.
It is a fact that if a person has graduated from Marine Corps boot camp and later joins another service in the US, they do not have to attend their boot camp. If a former soldier, sailor, or airman joins the Marines, they go through Marine Corps boot camp. Every Marine graduates boot camp (or OCS/The Basic School for officers) or they are not Marines.
It is said that one 'joins' the Army (or Navy, etc). One 'becomes' (or does not) a Marine. Having enlisted, attending boot camp, does not convey the title. One is not a Marine until graduating boot camp.
I won't claim it is better; I have a lot of respect for other services, and for our allies. I've trained with some tough hombres from all US services and many foreign ones. I won't put them down. But it is fundamentally different from all other services, by design. Many have said what we do is wrong. Many times, Congress and other groups have tried to dictate how the Marines make Marines. So far, it hasn't worked. We do what we do.
With the Marine Corps being a fraction the size of the other US armed forces (except for the Coast Guard, I think), it's interesting to me that although you see Army, Navy, and Air Force hats, t-shirts, bumper stickers, flags, etc, you see a LOT more USMC paraphernalia. There is something about us that sets us apart. Call it brainwashing or indoctrination or whatever; I'm glad of it. Being a Marine means never having to prove myself to anyone, ever again.
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." - President Ronald Regan.
US Marines have a lot of respect for the Royal Marines.
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth; and the amusing thing about it is that they are." -Father Kevin Keaney
1st Marine Division Chaplain, Korean War
The Marine Corps is indeed a part of the Department of the Navy. The question has often been asked, if we have an Army, why do we need a Marine Corps? Don't they perform the same function? The answer is that no, we do not. The Marine Corps is designed to be a rapid deployment force, the 'tip of the spear' as they say, and are small, light, and maneuverable for that reason. We rely up on the Navy to provide our medical and religious needs, and to transport us by sea - the Air Force takes us by air. We perform amphibious landings (hence the term 'Marine') and we are not an occupying force, but a rapid thrust through enemy positions. The classic example was in WWII, when the Army fought in Europe and the Marines in the Pacific. There were crossovers and when the war in Europe ended, the Army joined us in fighting on the islands of the Pacific. But it was not the Marines who 'occupied' Germany and Japan; that task was left to the Army. We just break stuff and kill people.
Often, other services say it best when talking about us...
"We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of this island, and three Army regiments pinned down in the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on?" -Gen. John W. Vessey Jr., USA, Chairman of the the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the assault on Grenada, 1983
Correct. We are also not former Marines, by official USMC policy.
"A Marine is a Marine. I set that policy two weeks ago – there’s no such thing as a former Marine. You’re a Marine, just in a different uniform and you’re in a different phase of your life. But you’ll always be a Marine because you went to Parris Island, San Diego or the hills of Quantico. There’s no such thing as a former Marine." - General Amos, Commandant, USMC
