Women in combat arms? Infantry, Armor, ...
- Thread starter billc
- Start date
Isn't the National Guard more or less a civvy thing? Anyway I was a regular, have seen and still do see combat....as a woman, so yeah I've been there, done that and thrown away the t shirt because it was old and falling apart. Luckily my part in 'combat' now is merely as an advisor to other ladies who do my job.
I think the National Guard is a bit like the TA used to be, Tez (before the TA came to be used more and more as another combat arm of the military). I know NG units were in Iraq and recall (maybe falsely) that there were concerns about the blue-on-blues that occurred, particularly by their air components (Apache's and A10's in the main) - so maybe training was improved?
The Illinois National Guard has served in both Iraq and Afghanistan...
http://www.pantagraph.com/news/five...cle_21c73874-caa6-501f-83e7-69250bc757e9.html
http://www.pantagraph.com/news/five...cle_21c73874-caa6-501f-83e7-69250bc757e9.html
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Our national guard is regular army. They are deployed just like the regular army. There are national guard guys in my department with 3 trips to iraq and on top of that called up to assist in natural disasters here when they are not in war zones.
The US National Guard system serves a couple of roles that the regular and reserve military do not.
First, each state has a National Guard system, usually both Army National Guard and Air National Guard. These are generally under the direct command of that state's governor, and their budget is paid for with state money. The members are almost all reservists in that they train one weekend a month and a couple of weeks each summer. There is a small cadre of full-time staff who are the equivalent of active-duty military. The NG wears the uniforms and has the same rank structure as the federal component they represent. They wear a unit patch that designates them as NG rather than regular Army or Air Force. There is no Marine Corps or Navy NG that I'm aware of. Recruits go through the same basic training in the same places as regular Army and Air Force personnel. The NG has also been seen in the past as a place for former active-duty servicemen and women to go when they get out if they are a) not quite ready to hang up the boots yet, and b) they do get some benefits, including a nice retirement (although they have to wait until they turn 65, unlike active duty military who can draw a pension at 37 in some cases). So if you have say 6 years active duty, you can get out, join the NG, and do 14 years of weekend duty, then retire and get half-active-duty pay starting at age 65. Not bad.
The reason for this is for a couple reasons. First, because the governors of states cannot 'call up' the US military, even the Reserve units in their state. So for dealing with natural disasters and that type of thing, they have the Guard.
Another reason is that due to something called 'posse comitatus' in the US, federal troops are not supposed to serve in civilian law enforcement capacities. A Marine MP for example, cannot arrest a civilian off-base. However, a NG MP can. NG troops can arrest and detain looters, for example.
The NG is also part federal. In times of national emergency, the President can 'call up' the NG just like they call up the Reserve component of the regular armed forces. That effectively nationalizes each state's NG troops and makes them a component of the regular Army or Air Force, again, just like Reserve regular troops that are called up. They are generally called up as a unit, not by individuals, so a town loses all its NG unit when they get called up.
Prior to 9/11, the NG had not been called up since the Vietnam war, and not much during that. Many people fought to volunteer for NG duty during Vietnam because they hoped to avoid the draft and being sent to Vietnam. Former President GW Bush was a pilot for the ANG. He did not serve in combat.
At one time, the NG (and the regular Reserve) was seen in a somewhat dim light by regular active-duty troops. They were often derided as 'weekend warriors' and tended to be older, less fit (fatter), and have lax standards for everything from grooming to training qualifications. However, since 9/11, the NG and the Reserve have served on near-constant active duty status in combat and they have proven themselves quite capable. There is still a stigma in some few cases, but now it is hard to tell the difference between an active-duty soldier and a NG soldier; they dress, look, act, and perform alike. The NG is much younger than it used to be as well.
In addition to the Reserve and the NG, some states (not all) have a State Guard, which is technically the 'militia' that federal law speaks of. The State Guard generally wears an Army or Army-like uniform and again, trains one weekend a month and a few weeks every summer, but they train completely away from federal US troops; they do not attend Army boot camps, they cannot be called to national duty. They can quit if they like; their contract is not an enlistment contract in that sense. They are completely their own thing, and can be used in whatever capacity the state sees fit to use them in. Some states find value in this; when the NG is called up and gone, they still have a paramilitary force to respond to natural disasters and other requirements. They generally do not get paid, they are volunteers.
First, each state has a National Guard system, usually both Army National Guard and Air National Guard. These are generally under the direct command of that state's governor, and their budget is paid for with state money. The members are almost all reservists in that they train one weekend a month and a couple of weeks each summer. There is a small cadre of full-time staff who are the equivalent of active-duty military. The NG wears the uniforms and has the same rank structure as the federal component they represent. They wear a unit patch that designates them as NG rather than regular Army or Air Force. There is no Marine Corps or Navy NG that I'm aware of. Recruits go through the same basic training in the same places as regular Army and Air Force personnel. The NG has also been seen in the past as a place for former active-duty servicemen and women to go when they get out if they are a) not quite ready to hang up the boots yet, and b) they do get some benefits, including a nice retirement (although they have to wait until they turn 65, unlike active duty military who can draw a pension at 37 in some cases). So if you have say 6 years active duty, you can get out, join the NG, and do 14 years of weekend duty, then retire and get half-active-duty pay starting at age 65. Not bad.
The reason for this is for a couple reasons. First, because the governors of states cannot 'call up' the US military, even the Reserve units in their state. So for dealing with natural disasters and that type of thing, they have the Guard.
Another reason is that due to something called 'posse comitatus' in the US, federal troops are not supposed to serve in civilian law enforcement capacities. A Marine MP for example, cannot arrest a civilian off-base. However, a NG MP can. NG troops can arrest and detain looters, for example.
The NG is also part federal. In times of national emergency, the President can 'call up' the NG just like they call up the Reserve component of the regular armed forces. That effectively nationalizes each state's NG troops and makes them a component of the regular Army or Air Force, again, just like Reserve regular troops that are called up. They are generally called up as a unit, not by individuals, so a town loses all its NG unit when they get called up.
Prior to 9/11, the NG had not been called up since the Vietnam war, and not much during that. Many people fought to volunteer for NG duty during Vietnam because they hoped to avoid the draft and being sent to Vietnam. Former President GW Bush was a pilot for the ANG. He did not serve in combat.
At one time, the NG (and the regular Reserve) was seen in a somewhat dim light by regular active-duty troops. They were often derided as 'weekend warriors' and tended to be older, less fit (fatter), and have lax standards for everything from grooming to training qualifications. However, since 9/11, the NG and the Reserve have served on near-constant active duty status in combat and they have proven themselves quite capable. There is still a stigma in some few cases, but now it is hard to tell the difference between an active-duty soldier and a NG soldier; they dress, look, act, and perform alike. The NG is much younger than it used to be as well.
In addition to the Reserve and the NG, some states (not all) have a State Guard, which is technically the 'militia' that federal law speaks of. The State Guard generally wears an Army or Army-like uniform and again, trains one weekend a month and a few weeks every summer, but they train completely away from federal US troops; they do not attend Army boot camps, they cannot be called to national duty. They can quit if they like; their contract is not an enlistment contract in that sense. They are completely their own thing, and can be used in whatever capacity the state sees fit to use them in. Some states find value in this; when the NG is called up and gone, they still have a paramilitary force to respond to natural disasters and other requirements. They generally do not get paid, they are volunteers.
Same as our TA.
What I'm surprised at is how short your basic training times are, here the shortest basic infantry training courses are 28 weeks, the Para, Guards and Gurkhas are longer. Each soldier is trained up to take take control at the rank above theirs if necessary even coming out of basic training and on going training means that this always remains so throught a soldiers career. The Para recruits have to complete P company before they are awarded their red berets, there's an All Arms P company too for trained soldiers of other branches and services. http://www.theparas.co.uk/pcoy.html
During the war many women in the SOE did the same training as the men and were parchuted into France to work undercover. In offcier training the female cdet officers do the same training over the 15 months they are at Sandhurst.
Btw talking of the Paras if anyone is around the UK in September they can do the Paras 10 and challenge themselves! I'll come and shout you one lol. If you're military see if you can get yourself across! come to Catterick and we'll see if we can get accom etc arranged.
http://www.paras10.com/
Our military separates basic training from MOS (military occupational specialty) training, which can be as long as six months or even longer. Infantry in the Marine Corps goes from boot camp to infantry training school (two months) and from that to Advanced Infantry Training School (AIT) which can last for an additional six months, depending on skills being taught.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_School_of_Infantry
When talking of special qualifications such as jump school, SCUBA qualification, etc, those are all done in their own individual schools, attended individually unless it is for Recon, which is done as a unit.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Basic training and infantry training are different. In the marine coprs you go thru basic for i believe its up to 16 weeks then you go to you infantry school which is anotherschool all together
They are trained alike as well, at least for most MOS's, yes? My niece did AIT with Army and Army National Guard alike, same when she decided to reclass to become a (National Guard) MP.
Right. Everybody goes through boot camp (enlisted) and then infantry go through infantry / advanced infantry training. I went to school at Camp Lejeune after boot camp, then later I changed MOS and went OJT to Camp Pendleton for MOS 5811 (MP). Most MP's at that time went from boot camp to MP school at Fort Hunter Liggett with the Army white hats.
Ah, hunter-liggett. I love all the Oak trees. Very beautiful base, even though it is incredibly boring, off duty.
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I have some pretty good shots of the old mission there.
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Training is th same, yes. In my day, the NG was considered a place to go if you could not do anything else (with respect to all those now serving, as things are different). They were often so under-strength that they would keep anyone; you could get to be 300 pounds and refuse to shave and they'd keep you. That's why at one time, the NG was not really looked up to. All different now.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Bill, thanks for the correction on basic training time in the USMC. I knew that but had forgotten, and reverted to US Army length. I do think you must have been thinking of something else when you mentioned the USMC was bound by Posse Comitatus. Neither the Navy nor the USMC are. The defense department has ordered they will not be used to enforce civilian law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act but they could be. I remember as it was part of our law training from as early as basic training. The expanded on when I went to various law enforcement training.
The military NG and reserves, has become both the backup and immediate augmentation for active duty units. It was once considered a pool of people trained to various levels of efficiency, that would not require as much training or provisioning in the event of a national emergency. That has changed as various politicians have decided the military is too much of a drain on our economy; and failing to acknowledge that without a sound military, there would be no economy to worry about. That is sad, but nothing new. The US has sort of accepted the military when needed, and disdained it when not, for a very long time.
The military NG and reserves, has become both the backup and immediate augmentation for active duty units. It was once considered a pool of people trained to various levels of efficiency, that would not require as much training or provisioning in the event of a national emergency. That has changed as various politicians have decided the military is too much of a drain on our economy; and failing to acknowledge that without a sound military, there would be no economy to worry about. That is sad, but nothing new. The US has sort of accepted the military when needed, and disdained it when not, for a very long time.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Many years ago, a lot of people, even on active duty could get away with lower physical standards. Usually it depended on if they could do their job or not (or at least appear to). When I joined the US Army in 1960, there was a sergeant in the dispensary who needed two belts to get around his massive belly. Even then we were astounded. But his duties were mainly administrative, and he could do them. Obviously he would have been of lessened value the closer he might have gotten to combat.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Watch it lady!! :uhyeah:
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Another difference the Marines do is every Marine regardless of your job must complete an infantry school first. Every Marine is a rifleman first. Both male and female have this requirement. Thought process is even an office worker in iraq 50 miles from the front line could be attacked and needs to know basic infantry tactics. I believe its 3 or 4 weeks long for non infantry personel. Myinfantry school was longer i had a secondary job as an anti-tank assaultmen we blew stuff up. Learned alot about explosives. In the end only difference between me and regular infantry was i had to carry heavier crap in the field.
Our RMs are Commandos, they do everything the SAS do but also can do it underwater. All soldiers regardless of trade are trained as combat soldiers even the medics.
So bearing in mind that the Royal Marines are Commandos ie spec forces think how good the female medics are that accompany them out on patrols in Afghan!
So bearing in mind that the Royal Marines are Commandos ie spec forces think how good the female medics are that accompany them out on patrols in Afghan!
