Wing Tsun (Chun) footwork, how big of a role does it play in your training/fighting?

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Footwork is really just a secondary thing to most Wing Tsun folks out there nowadays. I see so many people not taking into account stance training, and footwork drills that will help enable all the theories and guiding principles to work.

What do you do to incorporate footwork into your training? What is the most important part of footwork for you to train? Personally I think the shueng-ma (forward stance/step) is the most important, but lets see where this goes!

All the best ya'll,

Jeff (Sifu Panda)

 

[WC_lun]

If the base isn't good, the rest isn't good.

 

[cwk]

In my lineage the first thing we learn is a footwork only form called ng lun ma. Like wc lun said, without a strong base there isn't any hope of applying your techniques. All steps have their place in free fighting even if if It's only for a second or while transitioning/ changing position and if you haven't trained them enough you'll find out about it when you spar.

 

[Vajramusti]

Footwork is really just a secondary thing to most Wing Tsun folks out there nowadays. I see so many people not taking into account stance training, and footwork drills that will help enable all the theories and guiding principles to work.

What do you do to incorporate footwork into your training? What is the most important part of footwork for you to train? Personally I think the shueng-ma (forward stance/step) is the most important, but lets see where this goes!

All the best ya'll,

Jeff (Sifu Panda)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
First building the body and hand structure with top quality slt, then mastering the chor ma , then the initial steps in chum kiu, then the proper footwork in the dummy, then there are additional footwork with the jong,
more footwork with the kwan and the do, quick plum blossom footwork then moving chi sao, then lat sao, practicing footwork in man sao and combination attacks... Learning and teaching top quality foot work is necessary for moving in all directions within
the range of the kicks. Outside of the kicking range you can walk and move in, out, sideways, chase etc.

 

[yak sao]

I think footwork is taught, The problem is, it isn't emphasised by the teacher as it should be, or practiced by the student as it should be.

The responsibility lies on the student as much as it does the teacher. SNT needs to be deeply ingrained, not only into the brain, but into the body as well. Footwork learned in class needs to be trained at home thousands of times so that it becomes natural.
This takes time. We are so impatient in our modern culture, everyone wants it 5 minutes ago.
Students, many times are technique collectors, and teachers too often, in an effort to retain students, are too willing to accomodate them.

 

[geezer]

Good topic, Jeff.

Footwork is a funny subject since it varies so much between different WC sub-groups ... even within the Yip Man lineage. I can only speak for myself. In my little club, I really spend a lot of time on drilling footwork as taught to me by my old Chinese Sifu, founder of the "WT" branch.

For a warm up we work huen-bo and advancing steps across the floor until everyone is sweating (that's easy to do in Phoenix in the summer). We also draw chalk squares and practice a variety of hand drills (punch to punch, tan-da, gaun-da, etc.) turning in the squares. Then we add two more chalk squares extending forward on centerline making a "hopscotch" pattern shaped like an upside-down letter "T" and practice explosive advancing steps moving forward on centerline stepping into the forward squares and then back into the base squares with a turn, and so on.

We practice a lot of "free-stepping" drills following a target, adding punches and kicks but always focusing on the quality of the stance and steps. Then there's "stance sparring" where students chamber their arms and use just their stance and steps to wedge inside, take the center, and uproot their opponent. And, even when doing lat-sau drills and the chi-sau training sections, I'm always harping on synchronizing hand, body and steps.

Compared to our WT cousins in some other branches like EBMAS and the EWTO, we hold back longer on leg work like Yap Gherk and Bong Gherk in favor of building a strong foundation with the simpler steps and movements. Maybe Europeans raised playing a leg sport like football/soccer have more aptitude to learn that stuff sooner. My students are better off polishing the basics.

I think I'm obsessed with footwork for two reasons. First, my old Sifu held that his personal "take" on stance and footwork was one of the defining attributes of his "WT" system. He drilled us relentlessly on it. Secondly, because of old injuries that have partially crippled my ankles, I'm not capable of great "WT" footwork. I've had to train like hell to compensate to the limited degree that I can. I wish like anything that I could be more rooted and stable. So when I see a perfectly healthy and capable student neglect his footwork out of laziness, it kinda ticks me off. :wink:

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

In my lineage the first thing we learn is a footwork only form called ng lun ma. Like wc lun said, without a strong base there isn't any hope of applying your techniques. All steps have their place in free fighting even if if It's only for a second or while transitioning/ changing position and if you haven't trained them enough you'll find out about it when you spar.

You literally made me laugh out loud when I read "If you haven't trained them enough, you'll find out about it when you spar"... That is sooo true! What lineage are you from? And could you explain a little bit more about "Ng Lun Ma?" if I'm not mistaken it means 5-(something?)-stance? What does it train exactly?

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
First building the body and hand structure with top quality slt, then mastering the chor ma , then the initial steps in chum kiu, then the proper footwork in the dummy, then there are additional footwork with the jong,
more footwork with the kwan and the do, quick plum blossom footwork then moving chi sao, then lat sao, practicing footwork in man sao and combination attacks... Learning and teaching top quality foot work is necessary for moving in all directions within
the range of the kicks. Outside of the kicking range you can walk and move in, out, sideways, chase etc.

First off thank you for your reply! I quite agree, whenever I teach, I like the student to do basic reactions on the dummy (when they step), because the dummy doesn't lie/fake it. If you step improperly, your hand/leg techniques won't land correctly. Wing Tsun (in my opinion) is a self correcting system. If you don't do something correctly, you fail in the biggest way possible, and if you have the where-with-all to understand it, it can teach you where you are screwing up... Provided you know the theory, and application behind the techniques you are doing. I see many people out there nowadays who want to learn Wing Tsun "over the interenet, or from books" and I'm sorry, but without a knowledgable instructor, I just don't think it is possible.

Also something you alluded to in your last sentence, yes you don't always need to conform to the set footwork whilst engaged in real combat. Once you have a good understanding of footwork and become comfortable with it, you can imporvise, and I personally highly recommend it. But again I just see too many different individuals not using any form of footwork I have ever seen and/or footwork that just isn't working for them.

Again thanks for your reply and thank for taking the time!

All the best,
Jeff

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

I think footwork is taught, The problem is, it isn't emphasised by the teacher as it should be, or practiced by the student as it should be.

The responsibility lies on the student as much as it does the teacher. SNT needs to be deeply ingrained, not only into the brain, but into the body as well. Footwork learned in class needs to be trained at home thousands of times so that it becomes natural.
This takes time. We are so impatient in our modern culture, everyone wants it 5 minutes ago.
Students, many times are technique collectors, and teachers too often, in an effort to retain students, are too willing to accomodate them.

Yak-Sao, you are awesome!

My first Sifu didn't really go over footwork at all. My dai-si-hing did however! Matter of fact him and my si-dai (Sifu Ram De Pena of Alamo City Wing Tsun) are two very wonderful instructors who actually go through this all the time with their students!

Your hitting some key points I always discuss with different people. We have the "Mcdonalds Mindset", everybody wants a technique in five minutes, and the collectors... bah! It honestly is hard to keep some students interested, by no means am I advocating teaching students a trunk full of techniques, but giving a little extra twist to a technique for them or a little "bonus" as my sifu used to say can't harm them. As an instructor, it is up to you to make the material you are teaching FUN! That way students are more receptive and WANT to learn that certain material and forget about collecting techniques and learning the next part before they are ready! Outstanding post my friend!

All the best,

Jeff

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Geezer,

First and foremost, thank you for the illuminating post! When I was in the "WT" branch of things, I noticed a change over the years. When I first started, there seemed to be many more things being taught. German lat-sau was a very popular thing back then. As far as I know currently, in the US they are forbidden to teach it. And a couple of other not so nice facts. Hence the reason I am no longer associated with them. They aren't even teaching plum-blossom-footwork anymore.

And yes that certain founder of the WT system does like his footwork, at my 2nd seminar with him, he stopped our chi-sau practice to work on footwork, because many of us (including me) didn't know what the hell we were doing when it came to footwork. And I caught your phoenix reference, so I am guessing you know the first instructor in the US under that certain WT founder. I know have met many of the high ranking guys from the US under that system, and even some who have left because of the political mess, and I really enjoy training with the ones that left because they teach many things which seem to have become taboo subjects since early last year.

I like... well your whole post! Everything about it just screams common-sense! Again thank you for your post!

With humble reguards,

Jeff

 

[cwk]

You literally made me laugh out loud when I read "If you haven't trained them enough, you'll find out about it when you spar"... That is sooo true! What lineage are you from? And could you explain a little bit more about "Ng Lun Ma?" if I'm not mistaken it means 5-(something?)-stance? What does it train exactly?

I'm from cho family lineage. Ng lun ma " five interchangeable/wheel stances" is the first thing we learn. It's usually trained in the order of gee ng ma,chor ma, .
gung jin ma, huen ma, Sam gwok ma. All stances/ steps are trained stationary and dynamic. I first teach them as a set pattern and then mixed and flowing from one to the other

 

[Oleg]

I believe, that footwork is a basement of every martial art. I'm studying Chan Hwa Shun Wing Chun. In this lineage we have a second part of Siu lien quan named "Sei Mun" (four gates). My piece of advice: try to incorporate this form in your everyday training. This step can significantly improve your footwork. Just practice this form every day and your footwork will be changing.

 

[geezer]

I believe, that footwork is a basement of every martial art. I'm studying Chan Hwa Shun Wing Chun. In this lineage we have a second part of Siu lien quan named "Sei Mun" (four gates). My piece of advice: try to incorporate this form in your everyday training. This step can significantly improve your footwork...

Oleg--Welcome to Martialtalk. It's always great to have a new perspective on the forum.

First a sidenote --I think the word you you were looking for in the qute above is "foundation". Heck out here a lot of buildings don't even have basements! Regardless, I certainly agree that stance and footwork training is very important. Still, the wide stances and strong, forward-weighted footwork seen in the latter part of your video are quite contrary to what we train in my lineage of Ip Man Ving Chun. What you demonstrate has the distinct flavor of a "hard" Southern Chinese long-bridge system like Hung Gar.

I see you practice Chan family lineage from the mainland. Did Chan Wah Shun's decendents incorporate more of these kind of movements or, in your opinion, did Chan Wah Shun himself move more like this? After all, he was said to be a very powerful man.

Also, it would be great if you could provide some additional background about your experiences training and about your sifu on the mainland (Fo'shan area?). I'm sure I'm not the only one here who is very keen to learn more about the diverse lineages of Wing Chun.

 

[Danny T]

I’m a bit likeGeezer ,when it comes to footwork, being a somewhat obsessive with it. If onecannot move the stance easily, relaxed, and stable in any direction they willhave big problems to overcome when attempting to move or maintain stabilitywhen pressure is applied.

We practicefootwork 15-20 minutes every class. Because we have several boxers and muay thaipractitioners that also train with us we perform our footwork drills counteringtheir footwork. Square up and one leads the other follows working to maintain theset distance or to cut their movements off. We’ll have challenges on who can explodeforward covering the most distance in an advancing step. We also work explodingforward and immediately turn 90% right or left and explode step again. LikeGeezer we do stance sparring working to take the others center with anglestepping or directly to uproot. Sometimes we work to enter for a foot or legtrap.

Then comes coordinating hand/arm movementswith footwork, where we use focus pads to punch while moving. This also helpsingrain the ‘crash’ effect of using one’s body weight at the point of contact. (propertiming and range)

When someonecomes in they can present all the credentials they want; I simply ask them tomove around I want to see your footwork. Immediately tells me what I’m workingwith.

 

[Oleg]

Thank you!
Yes, "foundation" - it's more correct. Regarding Chan Hwa Shun lineage.. I would like to provide below a history of Wing Chun that exists in Chan's lineage. Probably it can be interesting. My Sifu's name is Chan Guotzi (he's a great grandson of Chan Wah Shun).
I guess, and the history I provided below confirms, that all these forms (and also footwork) came from Lian Zhan.


Chi Shan

This version of the story of a variation of Wing Chun is passed on by master Chen Huashun, who names the Shaolin monk Chi Shan as creator of the style. The Shaolin Temple located on Mount Tszyulyanshan, was founded during the Ming Dynasty. It is one of many such monasteries, established in Henan Province. Martial arts were practiced within the walls of the temple. Since many of the monks wished to restore the Ming Dynasty, Tzian Lon (the sixth Chinese emperor of the Ting Dynasty, who ruled China for the period of 1736-1795) at the end of his reign ordered his troops to destroy the monastery. In an unequal battle with the imperial troops and subsequent fire most of the monks, who had been masters of the martial arts, and their students perished. However, some of them managed to escape. Among them were the monk Chi Shan and his students Kun Huang and Hun Hsikuan.

Interestingly, according to one legend, Hun Hsikuan is the founder of another, no less famous southern Chinese style, that of Hung Gar. The history of this style mentions Chi Shan, as the best fighter in the Southern Shaolin Monastery of Fujian Province, whose student was Hun Hsikuan, and a girl named Fan Yinchuan that mastered the martial arts, and even developed her own style based on the movements of the crane. After becoming the wife of Hun Hsikuan Fan Yinchuan taught her husband the "Crane" techniques. Combining this knowledge with tiger style techniques, he synthesized a new form of martial arts, which later came to bear his name. This is one of the legends of the Hung Gar style.

But back to Chi Shan. According to legend, during the attack on the monastery and fire, Chi Shan and two students were traveling to the provinces of Guangdong and Guangxi. After learning about the incident, they decided to split up, and scattered to different corners of Guangdong, where they promoted the styles of Shaolin Wushu. The monk Chi Shan at 70 years of age changed his name to Van Zhenchan, which means "kindness and longevity." He secretly lived with the family of his student in Dongguan City, Guangdong Province. The residents respectfully called him "Uncle Kindness." Every morning, he trained and studied calligraphy, further developing a number of hieroglyphic writing styles. After many years of in-depth study of the various techniques of Shaolin boxing, he created a unique style of Wushu and with its help defeated several martial arts masters. One of Chi Shan`s students was a girl named Su Sanmey. She was born in the Huizhou area of Guangdong Province and from childhood grew up in an acting troupe. She had a remarkable acting talent and deep knowledge of Wushu. For several years, Chi Shan passed all his knowledge of the martial arts to Su Sanmey, and did so free of charge. Chi Shan still did not have a name for his new style. Only after he learned that the legendary Hall of the Shaolin temple, Yong Chun Dian (or Wing Chun Tong in the Guangdong dialect), where he studied martial arts, had for the most part survived the fire, as opposed to the other buildings, did he decide to call his unique style "Yunchuntsyuan" (which means "Eternal Spring"), to honor the memory of Yong Chun Dian (Wing Chun Tong) and his native Shaolin.
In developing this style, Su Sanmey took the best of Chi Shan`s Shaolin boxing techniques, practicing them in real combat duels and eliminating all the techniques which were, in her opinion, inefficient. So she enriched and developed Yunchuntsyuan, improving its revitalizing effect and combat capabilities. Su Sanmey`s husband, a man named Yan Futsyu, was one of the leading experts of the Bayhetsyuan style ("White Crane"). During practice of Wushu, there was an exchange of knowledge, and this fact explains the presence of "White Crane" techniques in the Yong Chun style (Wing Chun) and Yong Chun techniques in the Bayhe style.
In all three versions of the early history of the style, as mentioned previously, the art was passed on from generation to generation. Even the actors of the Chinese “Red Junk “opera were masters of the art of Wing Chun. Since that time one can be more or less certain in talking about the future development of the style, how it split it into different variations, as well as to trace the lineage of each of the variations.

Chen Hua Shun

Next to Lian Zhan`s pharmacy was a money-changers. Its owner was Chen Huashun, known by the nickname "Moneychanger Hua." Chen became a student of Lian Zhan and due to his outstanding physical condition became famous as a very formidable fighter. He was tall and had great physical strength. In the beginning one of Lian Zhan`s students, Li Hua, or “Hua Wooden Man” taught Chen Huashun. He received the nickname because his forearms were so strong that during training, he often broke the "arm" of the wooden dummy. A year later, Li Hua died. Lian Zhan began to teach Chen Huashun Yunchuntsyuan (Wing Chun) himself, based on the anatomical and physiological features of his pupil. Chen Huashun learned all the techniques of unarmed combat in the style of Yunchuntsyuan: "Little Idea" (Syaolentoy), "Search for the Bridge " (Syuntsyao), "Mark of the fingers" (Byaochzhi), "Fist of taming the tiger" (Fuhutsyuan), "Fist of the flower" (Huaquan) two sets, "Palm of the Buddha" (Fochzhan), "Red Sand Hand" (Hunshashou), "Fist of the reflection in the mirror" (Sannyantsyuan); "Pole mounted Knuckle" (Chzhuantsyuan), practicing methods of work on the wooden dummy, "Five Thunders" (Uleytsyuan). He practiced six sets with short and long poles: the first - "six points" (Lyudyanpeygun) ; and the second - "Stick" (Yuynyuytsimeygun); the third - (Shisantaybaogun); the fourth - (Shibatszyangun); the fifth - "Three points of the tiger`s tail" (Sandyanhuveygun); the sixth - "Six and a half point staff" (Lyudyanbangun) and the fifth is connected to the sixth by "Six and a half point’s tiger tail". Also, he practiced Yunchuntsyuan techniques using different types of cold steel weapons: "Double Lock Tao" short double swords (Shuantsyandao), is also known as "Visit to the woods with Dao" (Zhulindao), "Single Dao" (Dandao), also known as "Leave the forest with Dao" (Chulindao). After having mastered these techniques, Chen Huashun became Lian Zhan`s chief student and having left his native village, opened a school, where he began teaching Yunchuntsyuan. He passed his knowledge to his son Chen Zhumyan and daughter in law, Lee Myaosyan. He had only nine students: Lei Zhutszi, Chen Shihoy, I Junsu, I Xiaoli, Li Houpey, He Jian, Chen Kunda, He Hanlyuy and E Ven. E Ven was the youngest among all the students. He lived and grew up in a wealthy family involved in trade. At the age of thirteen, the boy began to study Yunchuntsyuan with master Chen Huashun. Because in this period master Chen was already of an advanced age and suffered from hypertension, the year after E Ven arrived at the school he stopped teaching. His son Jong Zhumyan started teaching E Ven and other students. After studying for two years, E Ven moved to Hong Kong to continue his education.
During his life, E Ven trained a large number of students, the most famous of which is Bruce Lee (Li Xiaolong), who continued the work of his teacher and helped spread Yunchuntsyuan worldwide.
Chen Huashun passed all his knowledge to his son Jong Zhumyan, who after some time opened the "Chinese Kung Fu Yunchun club” in Foshan. His fellow student brothers Zhutszi Lei, Chen Shiho, E Ven and others gave him a beautiful handmade wooden frame for painting as a souvenir, which is now preserved in Chen Huashun`s old house. During the war against the Japanese invaders and subsequent civil war, Chen Zhumyan opened the Wushu Association in Guangxi Province in southern China. In later years Chen Zhumyan and his wife lived in his hometown of Shunde, where he taught his style to everyone and practiced medicine. Among his students the best known sons are Chen Jiaxin, Chen Jiaqi, Chen Tszyalyan and students Chiu Chao and Gan Shaotsey.
Yunchuntsyuan was the most popular style in Shunde, and thus, most of the methods and techniques have been preserved. The grandson of Chen Huashun, Chen Tszyalyan taught the Yunchuntsyuan style to his sons: Chen Guoxiang, Chen Guoji,
Chen Gotchao, Chen Guoliang and also students Liang Ziyan, Chen Pei, Chen Sun, Huan Zhenchzhi, Lian Chzhantsyan,
Tan Huanbyao, Chen Jie and others. They and their followers founded their own variation of the Yunchuntsyuan style, named after the founder Chen Zhumyan.
Chen Guotzi, the great grandson of master Chen Huashun is the present main representative and bearer of the tradition of the Yunchuntsyuan martial art. Since his childhood, he has studied Wushu under his father Chen Tszyalyan and, thanks to his natural talent, quickly reached a significant level in the family martial arts.