WC punches aren't gravity based and already being trained in very close quarter attacks helps when someone wants to give you a hug. I recommend anti-grappling over grappling.
Wing Chun's basic stance
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WC punches aren't gravity based and already being trained in very close quarter attacks helps when someone wants to give you a hug. I recommend anti-grappling over grappling.
Try punching an opponent who has mounted you....
The concept of 'anti-grappling' doesn't sit well with me. I know some people swear by it, but I started doig BJJ and realised how difficult it is to actually grapple.
I agree that you can use stancework to prevent takedowns - a lot of the UFC use stances to stop shooting. However, if someone drags you to the floor unexpectedly, I am not convinced that wing chun would hold up.
I would love a person who is experinced in anti-grappling to come and train with me as I am always willing to be converted.
I have trained a bit of BJJ and some wrestling and my ground game isn't too bad. But if anyone does anti-grappling really well I would love them to come to my class and play around afterwards
Changhfy
Green Belt
Just to state a few of my opinions.
In some branches of Wing Chun actually the Yi Ji Kuem Ying Ma (2 character abducting energy stance) occasionally typo as 2 character pressing goat stance (in chinese characters the characters for pressing goat and abducting energy are similar and occasionally confused as such)
But like Hung Fa Yi generally starts the student out with the Leung Yi Ma and Buen Yi Ma as well as the Yi Ji kuem ying ma.
This adds another dimension to intercepting an opponent as leung yi ma lets the student add the Lik "power" of the foot, knee and hip. at an angle.
As for the last comment about grappling and anti-grappling (qin na/fan qin na)
What has always helped me is the gate theory. Its important to note the gates and how to shut each gate off. (or a basic concept of cover the gates/Sei Mun)
I have used this concept against grapplers including those going for single leg and double leg takedowns. (but its important to know the mechanics of grappling as well, this will aid in being able to defend against such)
take care,
Zach
In some branches of Wing Chun actually the Yi Ji Kuem Ying Ma (2 character abducting energy stance) occasionally typo as 2 character pressing goat stance (in chinese characters the characters for pressing goat and abducting energy are similar and occasionally confused as such)
But like Hung Fa Yi generally starts the student out with the Leung Yi Ma and Buen Yi Ma as well as the Yi Ji kuem ying ma.
This adds another dimension to intercepting an opponent as leung yi ma lets the student add the Lik "power" of the foot, knee and hip. at an angle.
As for the last comment about grappling and anti-grappling (qin na/fan qin na)
What has always helped me is the gate theory. Its important to note the gates and how to shut each gate off. (or a basic concept of cover the gates/Sei Mun)
I have used this concept against grapplers including those going for single leg and double leg takedowns. (but its important to know the mechanics of grappling as well, this will aid in being able to defend against such)
take care,
Zach
agreed
I brought this up with my sifu last night also. He said that if I get taken to the ground, I need more WC training
That is a very bad statement to make. I have been doing wing chun for a fair time, but there are some situations that you cannot stop being taken to the ground. These are two I thought of on the top of my head (both of which have happened to me)
Scenario 1 - You are out drinking. You trod on someone's foot whilst going to the toilet. You go back to the bar/your seat. The bloke follows you, grabs you and throws you/takes you to the floor. You wouldn't see it coming
Scenario 2 - You are fighting a better fighter who has trained wing chun and BJJ. Knowing that you have down wing chun he drgas you down to finish you on the floor
It is true that there are good stances that prevent getting taken to the floor but there are circumstances (two mentioned above) where you will inevitably be clinched or dragged to the ground.
If you have ever trained against a catch wrestler or BJJ practitioner you will find that it is not always that easy to stay on your feet
I don't believe so. My sifu is a WC sifu for a reason and his lineage maintains a strong belief in teaching what Ip Man taught with very little variation. Excessive addition to the forms would take the art from WC to a MMA. I train WC because of the theory behind the movements, not because I'm worried about what someone else.
An airplane can fall from the sky and land on my head, without a warning. Should I goto a piloting school? No, I'll rely on the WC I have been taught and trust that what my sifu has passed down to me will work. If it doesn't, I'll go back and ask my sifu why my pok no block plane.
monji112000
Green Belt
sounds like a plan, why not also ask why gun sao won't block a AK47? I am not saying you can't use Wing Chun and ideas behind it in situations that maybe weren't as common or didn't exist "back then".. but lets be realistic here. You are going one day fall or trip. you may come across somebody that is able to take you down. You may not have friends to back you up. You may get sucker punched.
Changhfy
Green Belt
To give some ideas,
Wing Chun being a Southern Shaolin system was coming from Shaolin as whats known as Human range or the 6 gate theory.
So for the Shaolin student who had to have some level of body karma before even training in Wing Chun, that student before hand would train in the ranges of combat.
Tek/Da/Suai/Na.
So the Dai Ji already had a decent level of knowledge or body karma beforehand. So my point is lets say a guy in TKD beats me, then I go and study TKD. Then a guy from BJJ beats me then I say wow TKD isnt good so lets go study BJJ. Then someone else from some other system beats me and I say lets study that system. This type of thinking of style vs style/ technique vs technique will lead endlessly and wont yield any significant progress.
So its important to understand the ideas of the ranges of combat, as well as the mechanics behind it. But this doesnt mean that you have to go study systems x, y and z to be proficient.
As long as you understand the mechanics behind the heaven/human/earth paradigms then you will truly be able to understand the essence of Shaolin.
Again this is my opinions based on Wing Chun stemming from the Shaolin background, If you dont believe Wing Chun came from the Southern Shaolin. (then thats great I welcome all opinions and facts)
I hope this helps.
take care
Wing Chun being a Southern Shaolin system was coming from Shaolin as whats known as Human range or the 6 gate theory.
So for the Shaolin student who had to have some level of body karma before even training in Wing Chun, that student before hand would train in the ranges of combat.
Tek/Da/Suai/Na.
So the Dai Ji already had a decent level of knowledge or body karma beforehand. So my point is lets say a guy in TKD beats me, then I go and study TKD. Then a guy from BJJ beats me then I say wow TKD isnt good so lets go study BJJ. Then someone else from some other system beats me and I say lets study that system. This type of thinking of style vs style/ technique vs technique will lead endlessly and wont yield any significant progress.
So its important to understand the ideas of the ranges of combat, as well as the mechanics behind it. But this doesnt mean that you have to go study systems x, y and z to be proficient.
As long as you understand the mechanics behind the heaven/human/earth paradigms then you will truly be able to understand the essence of Shaolin.
Again this is my opinions based on Wing Chun stemming from the Shaolin background, If you dont believe Wing Chun came from the Southern Shaolin. (then thats great I welcome all opinions and facts)
I hope this helps.
take care
Nice, thanks for the info
Oh my god...
Saying that a guy will take you to the floor is nowhere near the same as dealing with a gun. For a start, gun encounters are very rare (you're not even allowed to own a gun in Britain) whereas almost every fight I have witnessed ends up on the floor.
To trust what your Sifu is saying without question is blind. I am not saying that you should challenge him or be rude to him in his class. But if he dismisses the idea of being grabbed in a street then he is, I am afraid to say, quite misguided.
Wing chun is a great art on its own, but it is not a complete art. It does not deal with long range and it does not deal with grappling. At least, not in a definative way.
Can I ask whether you have seen a real fight? That is not meant to be patronising but it will affect how you see your martial arts training
I have, I am sad to say, been in many fights. The one thing I have found that if you get in too close to people they will start to grab you.
I am not saying that you have to prepare for a BJJ guy, but if you want to study fighting you cannot leave out grappling.
To say your Sifu is for a reason is nonsense. Any one of my students could open up a class and pass themselves off as an instructor.
Saying that a guy will take you to the floor is nowhere near the same as dealing with a gun. For a start, gun encounters are very rare (you're not even allowed to own a gun in Britain) whereas almost every fight I have witnessed ends up on the floor.
To trust what your Sifu is saying without question is blind. I am not saying that you should challenge him or be rude to him in his class. But if he dismisses the idea of being grabbed in a street then he is, I am afraid to say, quite misguided.
Wing chun is a great art on its own, but it is not a complete art. It does not deal with long range and it does not deal with grappling. At least, not in a definative way.
Can I ask whether you have seen a real fight? That is not meant to be patronising but it will affect how you see your martial arts training
I have, I am sad to say, been in many fights. The one thing I have found that if you get in too close to people they will start to grab you.
I am not saying that you have to prepare for a BJJ guy, but if you want to study fighting you cannot leave out grappling.
To say your Sifu is for a reason is nonsense. Any one of my students could open up a class and pass themselves off as an instructor.
Here in Arizona, its legal to carry a concealed weapon and it's very rare to have a large party, meeting or assembly of some sort without having any guns. Fights don't go to the floor here because people here don't fight. Might get shot. Kinda sucks because I would rather duke it out then stick em up.
I've been in a decent amount of fights. More then most, less then some. I don't personally have a love for it, like pride or ufc...but I do enjoy thinking about what happened after one has gone down.
I like reading your posts Kamon. There very dramatic, and that's appealing over here in the states
What can I say, I'm a dramatic kind of guy. Still waiting for Hollywood to call!!Here in Arizona, its legal to carry a concealed weapon and it's very rare to have a large party, meeting or assembly of some sort without having any guns. Fights don't go to the floor here because people here don't fight. Might get shot. Kinda sucks because I would rather duke it out then stick em up.
I've been in a decent amount of fights. More then most, less then some. I don't personally have a love for it, like pride or ufc...but I do enjoy thinking about what happened after one has gone down.
I like reading your posts Kamon. There very dramatic, and that's appealing over here in the states
Your point is fair. I don't live in a world of guns, so my heart goes out to you dude. Mind you, when the zombies come, you Americans will be able to defend yoursleves and us Brits will be trying to get them off with pitchforks!!
I am used to close quarter fights in bars or in a kebab shop after nightclubbing. I haven't had many fights in the desert etc. So it is interesting to hear your side of it all
That's funny as hell.
HA!
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
wow man.
In reguards to basic stance (or horse as some call it), if you master rooting and keep your structure under pressure, you can an will defeat a grappler or wrestler.
My instructor and hubbie sparred a 10 year teacher of JKD and BJJ. He was twice his size and shot in to take my hubbie to the ground. He just stood there in advanced stance (which surprised me for I thought advanced stance/one leg forward was structurely weaker in that aspect) and kept standing there to make a point. This very point. When well rooted you don't get taken down.
He did this more for my benefit because I'm tiny and had little faith in being able to keep a larger man from just picking me up and flinging me around.
He proved his point to me, and my doubt is defeated, now I can train rooting with more confidence and faith in the technique.
Basic/horse stance I've gained more confidence in.
He has two students each grab and ankle and pull my legs apart. I've gotten pretty good at keeping them from disturbing my stance. And he has one of our larger students grab me at the knees and try to pick me up while in basic stance. This I can do sometimes, but when I fail is only when I have doubt in my mind. (which is easy to do when being run at by a six foot 230 pound teenager who lifts weights and is strong as an ox! lol!)
Point being, for the past three years I've resisted the concept that I can do this, so have kept myself from learning. I kept thinking, no way! I have to do more, grapple back, wrestle back to keep a huge stong guy from picking me up. Thus, I stunted my own Wing Chun growth.
Just sharing a little lesson that I have recently learned, the hard way.
In reguards to basic stance (or horse as some call it), if you master rooting and keep your structure under pressure, you can an will defeat a grappler or wrestler.
My instructor and hubbie sparred a 10 year teacher of JKD and BJJ. He was twice his size and shot in to take my hubbie to the ground. He just stood there in advanced stance (which surprised me for I thought advanced stance/one leg forward was structurely weaker in that aspect) and kept standing there to make a point. This very point. When well rooted you don't get taken down.
He did this more for my benefit because I'm tiny and had little faith in being able to keep a larger man from just picking me up and flinging me around.
He proved his point to me, and my doubt is defeated, now I can train rooting with more confidence and faith in the technique.
Basic/horse stance I've gained more confidence in.
He has two students each grab and ankle and pull my legs apart. I've gotten pretty good at keeping them from disturbing my stance. And he has one of our larger students grab me at the knees and try to pick me up while in basic stance. This I can do sometimes, but when I fail is only when I have doubt in my mind. (which is easy to do when being run at by a six foot 230 pound teenager who lifts weights and is strong as an ox! lol!)
Point being, for the past three years I've resisted the concept that I can do this, so have kept myself from learning. I kept thinking, no way! I have to do more, grapple back, wrestle back to keep a huge stong guy from picking me up. Thus, I stunted my own Wing Chun growth.
Just sharing a little lesson that I have recently learned, the hard way.
Thank you very much
I see we train under similar concepts. Grappling breaks the concept of smaller beating bigger. We can WC on the ground, sideways or on our back... but trying to wrestle a larger person isn't bright in my opinion. I enjoy reading your posts Si-je. What is your lineage?
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
We utilize anti-grappling as well. This coming from my husbands lineage from Sifu Emin, he also combines Sifu Fung's system and techniques. He recieved rank in both and teaches both.
I really love the anti-grappling methodology. It's nothing short of brilliant. I see that the WC/WT concepts and principles applied to ground fighting and they work amazingly well. You even use basic/horse stance on the ground in a sense. We do to keep the opponent's weight off you when they attack between the legs. I've even practiced anti-grappling while pregnant and easily kept our student (at six foot 260 lbs) off me without straining my body using this basic stance while on the ground.
Of course, you don't just lay there all day, you move and re-direct the opponents energy on the ground just as you would while standing.
I'm still working on rooting with stance and can really pull it off on occasion. Just have to practice more. Of course, may people don't like working on Chi, but I find that this is cruitial. Whether you "believe" in it or not is irrevelant. Belief is not a requirement to the fact that it works, has everything to do with rooting, re-directing energy from an opponent, and generating power in striking whether on the ground or standing.
I really love the anti-grappling methodology. It's nothing short of brilliant. I see that the WC/WT concepts and principles applied to ground fighting and they work amazingly well. You even use basic/horse stance on the ground in a sense. We do to keep the opponent's weight off you when they attack between the legs. I've even practiced anti-grappling while pregnant and easily kept our student (at six foot 260 lbs) off me without straining my body using this basic stance while on the ground.
Of course, you don't just lay there all day, you move and re-direct the opponents energy on the ground just as you would while standing.
I'm still working on rooting with stance and can really pull it off on occasion. Just have to practice more. Of course, may people don't like working on Chi, but I find that this is cruitial. Whether you "believe" in it or not is irrevelant. Belief is not a requirement to the fact that it works, has everything to do with rooting, re-directing energy from an opponent, and generating power in striking whether on the ground or standing.
Yes, anti-grappling is the way to go. It's amazing that you're did that while pregnant. I don't believe in Chi but I believe we root a similar power that works with the structure. It's what keeps us planted on our heals and comes from the midriff.
