Wing Chun Online

[Jut]

What are your goals? What are you training for? How many hours a week will you be dedicating to training?

Well, my goal is to finish my book. Wing Chun, IMHO, is the most abused system out there, so I'd like to clarify a few things, I guess. I train because I am constantly learning. My SiFu has over 25 yrs under his belt, and because our system is complete [just sayin.. ] his 'light bulb', if you will, keeps lighting up as he recognizes something from, say the moifa, that ties in with SLT.
It's a simple system as far as principles go, yet it's incredibly deep Application wise.
I work out daily, but take the advise Sun Lu Tang once gave.. "don't do any one thing, too much."
I also give private lessons to a select few.

 

[Jut]

I have been in touch with a well respected sifu/teacher from Kitchener Ontario Canada 2 hours away. We will be meeting in the very near future(May) at one of his Sunday classes to discuss monthly one on one sessions as well as his dvd series to practice at home. I currently train in Southern Mantis daily at my home gym as well as in class on Saturday mornings for a 1 1/2 hours. My goal is for personal health/well being as well as the brain challenge it may bring. Lastly it is my hope that in the near future I can teach my grandchildren(3 to 4years) . I hope Wing Chun is just as physically and mentally stimulating as the Southern Mantis Kung -Fu I have been studying.

Southern Mantis is a strong style, nice choice.
I'm assuming the Canada trip is to investigate Wing Chun? If so, you should enjoy your visit and let me know what you think of WC. I'd also be interested in what, if any, differences Chuck see's between Moy Yat's lineage, and WSL's.
Thanks

 

[Jut]

Hhmm.. here I was thinking the 'Alerts' up top were to me. Still learning.. ~sigh

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hhmm.. here I was thinking the 'Alerts' up top were to me. Still learning.. ~sigh

They are. You'll see alerts that let you know someone responded to a thread you are "watching" (setting at the top of the thread), as well as when someone replies directly to you (listed as a "quote"). You'll get a separate notification ("inbox") if you get a private message.

 

[Jut]

They are. You'll see alerts that let you know someone responded to a thread you are "watching" (setting at the top of the thread), as well as when someone replies directly to you (listed as a "quote"). You'll get a separate notification ("inbox") if you get a private message.

Thanks Gpsey.. I knew something wasn't right. I'm not that interesting. hahaha

 

[vince1]

Southern Mantis is a strong style, nice choice.
I'm assuming the Canada trip is to investigate Wing Chun? If so, you should enjoy your visit and let me know what you think of WC. I'd also be interested in what, if any, differences Chuck see's between Moy Yat's lineage, and WSL's.
Thanks

I am looking forward to meeting Chuck and hope it's a good fit me. If it's not I will stick with the mantis.

 

[geezer]

Which story, Geezer? haha

Seriously, all of them!

Still, a good story is always worth re-telling. Like this one about Duncan Leung, told to me by a student of mine who trained with Leung Sifu many years back.

He said he was present at a banquet dinner with Leung Sifu after a special seminar or something ....and Leung Sifu was talking to some of his senior students while eating dinner when he said "You know I could even kill a man with chopsticks if I had to!" whereupon he flicked his wrist, sending his chopsticks across the table where the stuck into the opposite wall.

Don't know if its true, ...but it's a really cool story

 

[geezer]

... My SiFu has over 25 yrs under his belt, and because our system is complete [just sayin.. ] his 'light bulb', if you will, keeps lighting up as he recognizes something from, say the moifa, that ties in with SLT. ...It's a simple system as far as principles go, yet it's incredibly deep Application wise.

Jut, the phrase "complete system" can be used to mean different things. Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say "our system is complete"? Do you mean the complete system that GM Ip Man taught? ...or a complete and integrated system of pugilism, or do you mean that it addresses all areas of combat? In what way do you consider it uniquely complete?

 

[Jut]

Seriously, all of them!

Still, a good story is always worth re-telling. Like this one about Duncan Leung, told to me by a student of mine who trained with Leung Sifu many years back.

He said he was present at a banquet dinner with Leung Sifu after a special seminar or something ....and Leung Sifu was talking to some of his senior students while eating dinner when he said "You know I could even kill a man with chopsticks if I had to!" whereupon he flicked his wrist, sending his chopsticks across the table where the stuck into the opposite wall.

Don't know if its true, ...but it's a really cool story

Haha -thats cool. Sounds like him. Probably one of his lessons on situational awareness.. creating a weapon where none seem to exist.
Here's another.. Contrary to how Ip's portrayed, he did encourage certain ones to 'go out', fight, and see for themselves if 'whatever', worked. Duncan knew someone at the prison [in China] and at some point, after the Knives, he would strike some deal with someone on death row.. like a death match. I understand he was very confident.
Like you said.. really cool stories. Many from his own book.

 

[Jut]

Jut, the phrase "complete system" can be used to mean different things. Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say "our system is complete"? Do you mean the complete system that GM Ip Man taught? ...or a complete and integrated system of pugilism, or do you mean that it addresses all areas of combat? In what way do you consider it uniquely complete?

Sure! My dyslexia produces unusual sentence and paragraph structure, and this subject is a bit complicated and.. delicate[?], so please bear with me.
By saying "Complete", I'm referring to the entire WC system that Ip Man learned from Chan Wah Shun and Leung Bik, that was not presented to everyone. It's apparent to me, from what I've gleaned over the years, [training, sharing, reading, Youtube, etc.], that not everyone was taught the same depth of WC's technical applications, nor the entirety of the system. And, as I'm sure you know, the Wing Chun system doesn't end with the knives, like many are told. There is another area of advanced footwork that probably makes up another 20%, that follow knives. So to answer your question on why I feel my lineage is unique.. ONE reason is my training includes this extra 20%. This includes 4 separate Jong's, with each containing several sets.
Also, all our forms are different.. NO Bil Jee even close.. [a Disciple was chided by Duncan when he just showed the Pole 'thrust' in a pic he published, because no one (we've seen) does the thrust like he [Duncan] was taught.. same with Knife, very different. I'm referring to his early 70's WC. Since then he teaches 'Applied WC' now.. not the same. ]

Sidebar -Each pole of the mid size Gerk Jong is about 4". Chow Tze Chun, [just passed a cpl months ago] one of Ip Man's early and long time students, and who was with him long enough to learn WC advanced kicking, claims Ip could break' two poles' with his kick. [another one of those cool stories] If you look him up, [CTC] you'll see a famous pic of him from the 50's, kneeling with few of Ip's other students. Standing on the right is a teenager in a white shirt. That's Duncan.

Also, when I say 5 "private" students, I don't mean they're anonymous, Geezer, I mean five that were taken aside for special reasons, and taught something a little different.. as in technically elevated? I.E., IMHO, WSL is one of these five.. taught one thing in class, then taken aside later and given more insight. That being said, I've never seen any of his disciples teaching advanced footwork on tripodal, or Moifa [plumb blossom posts]. Just sayin..
I heard only a couple people know who they are. Allen Lee was one, and HE recently passed as well.
I hope this covers that Q, Geezer. It's little things in the system that are interesting to me.. like CTC's moifa training was on 5 posts, and ours has a 6th.. one in the middle. Hhmmm
FYI- now that CTC's passed, his senior student Donald Mak claims that -He- is now Ip Man's 'Traditional' WC successor and Grandmaster. -yo, stand in line, pal! hahaha

 

[Vajramusti]

Sure! My dyslexia produces unusual sentence and paragraph structure, and this subject is a bit complicated and.. delicate[?], so please bear with me.
By saying "Complete", I'm referring to the entire WC system that Ip Man learned from Chan Wah Shun and Leung Bik, that was not presented to everyone. It's apparent to me, from what I've gleaned over the years, [training, sharing, reading, Youtube, etc.], that not everyone was taught the same depth of WC's technical applications, nor the entirety of the system. And, as I'm sure you know, the Wing Chun system doesn't end with the knives, like many are told. There is another area of advanced footwork that probably makes up another 20%, that follow knives. So to answer your question on why I feel my lineage is unique.. ONE reason is my training includes this extra 20%. This includes 4 separate Jong's, with each containing several sets.
Also, all our forms are different.. NO Bil Jee even close.. [a Disciple was chided by Duncan when he just showed the Pole 'thrust' in a pic he published, because no one (we've seen) does the thrust like he [Duncan] was taught.. same with Knife, very different. I'm referring to his early 70's WC. Since then he teaches 'Applied WC' now.. not the same. ]

Sidebar -Each pole of the mid size Gerk Jong is about 4". Chow Tze Chun, [just passed a cpl months ago] one of Ip Man's early and long time students, and who was with him long enough to learn WC advanced kicking, claims Ip could break' two poles' with his kick. [another one of those cool stories] If you look him up, [CTC] you'll see a famous pic of him from the 50's, kneeling with few of Ip's other students. Standing on the right is a teenager in a white shirt. That's Duncan.

Also, when I say 5 "private" students, I don't mean they're anonymous, Geezer, I mean five that were taken aside for special reasons, and taught something a little different.. as in technically elevated? I.E., IMHO, WSL is one of these five.. taught one thing in class, then taken aside later and given more insight. That being said, I've never seen any of his disciples teaching advanced footwork on tripodal, or Moifa [plumb blossom posts]. Just sayin..
I heard only a couple people know who they are. Allen Lee was one, and HE recently passed as well.
I hope this covers that Q, Geezer. It's little things in the system that are interesting to me.. like CTC's moifa training was on 5 posts, and ours has a 6th.. one in the middle. Hhmmm
FYI- now that CTC's passed, his senior student Donald Mak claims that -He- is now Ip Man's 'Traditional' WC successor and Grandmaster. -yo, stand in line, pal! hahaha

 

[Vajramusti]

------------

Egos and stories !

 

[geezer]

From my own perspective, I don't believe in "the secret five" story, or that there are certain advanced techniques that make some WC better than the rest. There are important differences behind the different WC/VT/WT systems being taught, but the most important things are the basics and the underlying concepts.

For example, the simple concept of forward intent is absolutely fundamental to my VT. So when I happened across this clip of a teacher named Sinclair, I was surprised by the lack of forward intent in the Chi-Sau technique demonstrated. Notice the way he applies pak sau in chi-sau from about 1:00 to 1:35 leaving his partner's fist free to strike. At around 1:29 - 1:31 he explains that he prevents this by pulling inward toward himself! This is not an approach we would ever advocate in our lineage! It simply would not reinforce the attribute of springy forward energy we desire. Furthermore, applied against a partner of otherwise equal ability, it would almost certainly result in your getting punched square in the chest.

Now in spite of this, this guy may be a great fighter. Who knows? My point is simply that what matters to me is not techniques, but the basics, and the concepts behind them.

 

[DanT]

I think if you train alone mainly it would be wise to invest in a Heavy Bag.

Things you won't be able to do:
-Chi Sao
-sparring
-pad work
-partner Drills

Things you will be able to do:
-footwork practice
-techniques in air
-form
-Heavy Bag

I think your training with people should focus on the things you can't do. It would be very hard in my opinion to learn Wing Chun practicing only once a week with a partner. At least the way I train, 75% of my training is with a partner (partner Drills, sparring, Chi Sao, pad work). The forms have never been a huge part of my training even though I do them daily.

 

[Jut]

From my own perspective, I don't believe in "the secret five" story, or that there are certain advanced techniques that make some WC better than the rest. There are important differences behind the different WC/VT/WT systems being taught, but the most important things are the basics and the underlying concepts.

For example, the simple concept of forward intent is absolutely fundamental to my VT. So when I happened across this clip of a teacher named Sinclair, I was surprised by the lack of forward intent in the Chi-Sau technique demonstrated. Notice the way he applies pak sau in chi-sau from about 1:00 to 1:35 leaving his partner's fist free to strike. At around 1:29 - 1:31 he explains that he prevents this by pulling inward toward himself! This is not an approach we would ever advocate in our lineage! It simply would not reinforce the attribute of springy forward energy we desire. Furthermore, applied against a partner of otherwise equal ability, it would almost certainly result in your getting punched square in the chest.

Now in spite of this, this guy may be a great fighter. Who knows? My point is simply that what matters to me is not techniques, but the basics, and the concepts behind them.

Yea, the '5 guy' story can't be verified either way, but I also treasure hunt, and something I learned years back in doing research was.. there's usually some truth within a rumor or popular story. Also, as you pointed out.. some stories are just cool.

I'm sure my explanation was lacking since you actually made the point I was trying to convey, with your comment on forward intent vs lack-of. To me, that would be a good example of what I meant regarding technique, with the former being a better technique than the latter. I teach it as 'Pressing the action', and like you, I believe this is a paramount WC concept.

The video.
Sorry Geezer, I tried to listen at 1:00, but the video was a little painful from :20 on. I mean, other than having no horse, no footwork, lineal thinking, no gate understanding, no elbow understanding, no grasp of 'sleepy hand'.. not bad, I guess.

 

[geezer]

Sorry. It was not my intent to cause you such anguish!

 

[Cephalopod]

From my own perspective, I don't believe in "the secret five" story, or that there are certain advanced techniques that make some WC better than the rest. There are important differences behind the different WC/VT/WT systems being taught, but the most important things are the basics and the underlying concepts.

For example, the simple concept of forward intent is absolutely fundamental to my VT. So when I happened across this clip of a teacher named Sinclair, I was surprised by the lack of forward intent in the Chi-Sau technique demonstrated. Notice the way he applies pak sau in chi-sau from about 1:00 to 1:35 leaving his partner's fist free to strike. At around 1:29 - 1:31 he explains that he prevents this by pulling inward toward himself! This is not an approach we would ever advocate in our lineage! It simply would not reinforce the attribute of springy forward energy we desire. Furthermore, applied against a partner of otherwise equal ability, it would almost certainly result in your getting punched square in the chest.

Now in spite of this, this guy may be a great fighter. Who knows? My point is simply that what matters to me is not techniques, but the basics, and the concepts behind them.

Indeed a bizarre video, Geezer.
In the existing circumstances, the teacher can safely get away with the technique as applied because of his student's forward leaning aspect and collapsed posture. Once the pak is applied to his arm, he's so far on his toes, a retaliatory strike is (almost) out of the question.

It would seem that the teacher's energy would be better spent showing his students how to not end up in this helpless position in the first place.

Of course, not having attended his class, I don't know what he's up to... maybe he has a larger plan.

Like you said, pak sau with the bong side is hard to pull off with a skilled opponent (IMHO the only scenario worth training for). It depends entirely on taking his left hand (assuming right hand bong) out of play either with a hard pin or with a deep angle to the left.

 

[geezer]

If we are to just talk technique, more reliable choices are:

1. initiating pak-sau from the fook-sau side while pressing forward so that your forearm also functions as a lan-sau, jamming into and unbalancing your opponent and effectively controlling both your opponent's arms with one of yours while at the same time freeing arm the other to attack.

Here is this version being shown by a guy originally from the Augustine Fong school. (Not my lineage, but it looks pretty much the same) Check out 1:30 -2:00:

2. Alternatively, you may pak or lap from the bong side if you angle a bit to the side while pressing forward so that your bong-sau bends and functions as a lan-sau and pins both your opponent's arms, freeing up your other arm to strike.

Here are two guys (not from my assn.) doing pretty much what I'm talking about here at 3:00 -4:00:

The principles are very simple. Use constant forward pressure to move in, take your opponent's center and and control his two arms with one of your own. Then lat sau jik chung! --the hand that is free goes forward and strikes.

 

[Cephalopod]

If we are to just talk technique, more reliable choices are:

1. initiating pak-sau from the fook-sau side while pressing forward so that your forearm also functions as a lan-sau, jamming into and unbalancing your opponent and effectively controlling both your opponent's arms with one of yours while at the same time freeing arm the other to attack.

Here is this version being shown by a guy originally from the Augustine Fong school. (Not my lineage, but it looks pretty much the same) Check out 1:30 -2:00:

2. Alternatively, you may pak or lap from the bong side if you angle a bit to the side while pressing forward so that your bong-sau bends and functions as a lan-sau and pins both your opponent's arms, freeing up your other arm to strike.

Here are two guys (not from my assn.) doing pretty much what I'm talking about here at 3:00 -4:00:

The principles are very simple. Use constant forward pressure to move in, take your opponent's center and and control his two arms with one of your own. Then lat sau jik chung! --the hand that is free goes forward and strikes.

Option #2 as shown in the video is a combination of what I meant by a hard pin and a deep angle to the left. Both ideas together might not be necessary if you catch your opponent his left arm being rigid. If he's fighting against your forward pressure you can achieve a momentary hard 'pin' without his arms actually touching each other.

Option #1 is generally much safer. In a brief (and I do mean brief) survey of videos by said instructor, including one where he's rolling with Ip Chun, he goes for pak sao on the bong side dozens of times but not once did I see him go for a pak sao on the fuk side. Strange.