Wing Chun: Evolving or Devolving?

[geezer]

...I'm Master-less but I feel I've gathered a lot of information and put it to practice all without a teacher (due to already being a good teacher myself) and because I'm without a master, all sources of information are game to me, no bad master is stopping me from trying to gain outside information...

Learning on your own without skilled hands to help you along is going to be a long, slow and frustrating road. Books, CDs and your own inventive mind can only take you so far in one lifetime. Wing Chun developed over centuries, and a lot of it depends on what you feel rather than what you see. Learning that from a video is about as easy as describing the color red to a man blind from birth, or the taste of a fine wine to someone who has only tasted water.

I'd say seek out a teacher and training partners. And keep that open, inquiring mind too. And good luck on your journey!

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

You're correct on your assumption, geezer.

All in all, years of training with the same teacher and that same teacher still pioneering research, training, skill and contributions will keep a Seniority hierarchy that is also present in Academia. So the "family" structure will for the most part be there.

Yet if you decide to teach using the Academic/Higher learning approach, you have to create a curriculum that is based courses that teach specific skills. That way, courses can build on each other and complement themselves.

We have moved to numbered courses to represent the material that is taught. They depend mostly on the level and are taught in quarters. Also, each course has a number of hours that need to be completed.

And to pass the course, specific skills and knowledge must be demonstrated. The classes are in a "laboratory" structure, as to test things out at the same time you learn new skills in a repeatable, controlled and verifiable manner.

The point is to create an atmosphere of learning that promotes the thinking process and participation/contribution no matter the level. This is done so that sharing of knowledge and innovations can be more easily accessed, published and promoted.

Also, the system will not "die" with the passing of just one person, so many can keep improving on the quality of the training while maintaining certain verification, validation and quality standards.

This includes of course, continuing education and training.

Strictly speaking, Martial training is a part of Physical Education that has very complicated interconnections and multidisciplinary approaches are fundamental.

As an area of Human Knowledge, it is for the most part, disregarded. Yet all those that train here know that the effort to gain mastery and knowledge of Wing Chun and other Martial Sciences rivals the effort and time needed to get a Master's Degree.

Thus I will tell you in a few weeks of the results of a project that I'm doing regarding this very topic.

So yeah, it is an important development to train this way, I think.

More later. If you have specific questions, just ask! By the way, our group is not large. That doesn;t stop us from striving to do the best possible!

Juan Mercado-Robles

 

[geezer]

Speaking of "Wing Chun evolution" just recently my instructor came into town and showed our group some new ways of moving in chi-sau. this is stuff dealing with how to counter certain "unorthodox" attacts that can't be easily dissolved with the typical responses. The movements we were shown demand a lot of subtle sensing and involve a flexing or swaying of the entire body in a way reminiscent of things I've seen tai-chi masters do. This is new stuff to me and new to our training system. And its tough to learn (I've really got my work cut out ahead). But it is an example of Wing Chun evolving, and improving...


Or is it? After working on these movements solo, in front of a mirror, trying to make them smaller and more efficient, I went back and watched some clips of my old Chinese Sifu on Youtube. Guess what? I could see him moving this way, very subtly. It was something I'd never noticed (or been taught) before, but it was always there if I could only see it! In this case, Wing Chun isn't evolving. But at last, and ever so slowly, I am!

 

[wingchun100]

I was talking with some very skilled WC guys recently and it became apparent that there are two divergent ways to view WC. One perspective, often characteristic of very traditional Chinese instructors and their followers, is that Wing Chun reached it's pinnacle of perfection in the distant past.

According to this viewpoint, the grandmasters of past generations attained a superior level of skill and understanding, and today's practitioners of the art have should look back to such luminous figures as Yip Man, Leung Jan, or even Ng Mui for inspiration, and should seek to train with a modern master who has maintained the purest and most complete body of this ancient wisdom.

A second, more characteristically occidental point of view is that although the ancient Wing Chun was good in it's time, the world changes. So, Wing Chun must also adapt, change and move ever forward to maintain it's edge, while still following our basic principles such as efficiency, simplicity, and economy of motion.

I call the first perspective, "devolutionary" since it basically espouses that the highest level of the art has already been attained by our illustrious anscestors and sadly is slipping away from us in present times. But, by seeking out a really well trained, traditional sifu, perhaps we can endeavor to preserve the essence of this art for another generation.

I've termed the second, forward looking outlook as "evolutionary". The assumption is that each generation moves the art forward and makes it better. In its most extreme form it leads to something like JKD. Others try to stay true to the essence of wing chun, but are not afraid to investigate new solutions to the age-old challenges of hand-to hand combat.

Which perspective best describes you and your school? Or, like most of us, are you a mix of both?

I love the "similar thread" feature at the bottom of each post. It gives me the chance to find great old threads like this.

Personally, I believe this: while the composition of the human body hasn't changed (we still have two arms and legs like the old masters did), the way people attack HAS changed. In modern day America I am not going to face a lot of other people that know martial arts very well. A lot of my confrontations will be against devious people who will use some underhanded tricks to beat me (blindsiding, getting their friends in on it, using weapons when you are empty-handed etc.). I'm not saying those didn't happen back in the day; I just think in the absence of any martial arts training they are more common now. But anyway, my point is that I think we have to adapt our wing chun (or ANY martial arts skills) to the way people attack.

That's how I see it, and fortunately I found a school that feels the same way.

 

[cwk]

I don't think the system as devolved so much as fragmented. I think all the information is still there but spread out more as different lineages spread out from their original roots. Some lineages have better structure, some have better footwork, etc ,etc.
However, I see nothing wrong with people adding stuff to their wing chun or applying it in a non traditional way. If it works, it works.
I also think the difference in skill level comes from how much time the old masters spent practicing compared to today and how much they tested themselves against others.

 

[wingchun100]

I don't think the system as devolved so much as fragmented. I think all the information is still there but spread out more as different lineages spread out from their original roots. Some lineages have better structure, some have better footwork, etc ,etc.
However, I see nothing wrong with people adding stuff to their wing chun or applying it in a non traditional way. If it works, it works.
I also think the difference in skill level comes from how much time the old masters spent practicing compared to today and how much they tested themselves against others.

Agreed. Hell, in the role-playing game NINJAS AND SUPERSPIES they had two different types of martial artists: "traditional" and "worldly." Most of us fall in the latter category. We have bills to pay, jobs to work, etc. We can't spend all day doing forms and sparring in a temple.

 

[Marnetmar]

I think it's safe to consider WC evolutionary, the thing is that the people who do have a full understanding of WC's principles and techniques and are able to truly build on them from there are the ones that keep quiet.

There's a reason why you almost never hear anybody talk about Lok Yiu, Kenneth Chung or Leung Sheung when not in reference to Leung Ting.

 

[geezer]

I think it's safe to consider WC evolutionary, the thing is that the people who do have a full understanding of WC's principles and techniques and are able to truly build on them from there are the ones that keep quiet.

There's a reason why you almost never hear anybody talk about Lok Yiu, Kenneth Chung or Leung Sheung when not in reference to Leung Ting.

Not sure why you picked those particular names. I do think it's a bit idealistic to think that those who truly know will "keep quiet". Especially when there's money at stake. Many great WC-ers are anything but saints!

 

[mograph]

Thoughts on the "academic" alternative:

1. I see it as including the concept of critical inquiry. However, that inquiry, properly applied, requires discipline on the part of the inquiring student: respect for the teacher/facilitator, respect for the art and a careful presentation of the inquiry so to focus on the topic and keep the inquiry impersonal. There is no place for challenge to advance one's status.

2. When considering the presentation of information or the advancement of claims, it would be best to keep the persuasive appeals logical.

3. Of the remaining two types of appeals, it is hoped that emotional appeals will continue to be frowned upon in a serious studio. However, it is good to be aware of the prevalence of appeals to authority, which are a staple of the traditional studio, such as "Bruce Lee said this," or "do what Sifu says."

4. However, sometimes a technique cannot be fully apprehended through logical appeals, so sometimes we just need to trust the instructor and try it.

:asian:

P.S. I can't think of an emotional appeal in this context. Outside of martial arts, we see them in advertising materials that attempt to persuade us by making us feel fearful, angry or nostalgic. I suppose that a nostalgia for a bygone wuxia world may apply.

 

[Danny T]

I think we tend to over think it and over think it and over think it. Wing Chun the training system is just that; at training system. Yes there are specific aspects of training and specific 'techniques' utilized with in the training as examples and for drilling to understand the principles and to develop concepts. It is when we become cultist and clannish that we become stagnant and the future devolves. One of the things my instructor (from Hong Kong) saids they did was to go out and fight. And they fought a lot. Not with wing chun people but anyone! Afterward licking their wounds they would go back to their training and analyze what happen. Training more and then go out to fight again. This is what I see as the loss of wing chun. My sifu says, "Forms, Drills, Application". Form is form, drills are for timing and concept development, application is how do I survive using the skills I have developed. I believe most people are stuck in the Form and Drill portion of their journey and never evolve into the application (survival) aspect.

 

[wingchun100]

I think we tend to over think it and over think it and over think it. Wing Chun the training system is just that; at training system. Yes there are specific aspects of training and specific 'techniques' utilized with in the training as examples and for drilling to understand the principles and to develop concepts. It is when we become cultist and clannish that we become stagnant and the future devolves. One of the things my instructor (from Hong Kong) saids they did was to go out and fight. And they fought a lot. Not with wing chun people but anyone! Afterward licking their wounds they would go back to their training and analyze what happen. Training more and then go out to fight again. This is what I see as the loss of wing chun. My sifu says, "Forms, Drills, Application". Form is form, drills are for timing and concept development, application is how do I survive using the skills I have developed. I believe most people are stuck in the Form and Drill portion of their journey and never evolve into the application (survival) aspect.

You remind me of a remark one of my friends made to me. I told him how schools would have rooftop fights, and he said, "Ha! Yeah, try getting away with that today."

It made me wonder: not that I am condoning it, but why COULDN'T schools get away with it today? What gave them the impression that there would be no legal repercussions, but these days there would be the fear of getting caught? Considering how many criminals get away with offenses that are way more serious than a "friendly" fist fight challenge, I don't think there would be a guarantee anyone would get caught. I mean, the whole point of going on the rooftop is so the cop walking his beat won't see you! Just tell the spectators to keep their noise to a minimum, and you're good to go. LOL

Again, I am not condoning a return to rooftop fights. I'm just wondering why practitioners from the "old" days didn't hesitate to do it.

 

[Danny T]

My sifu, kinda just chuckles when talking about rooftop fights. He says most of the so called fights were just friendly sparring matches. Some more like school yard fights. There were some very serious fights but most were not. There were a lot of gangs and those were most of the real fights he had. He spent a year in college in Canada then moved to NY City and worked as a body guard for one of the gangs there. After a couple of years he realized he was just a thug and moved out, changed his life.

As to schools doing such a thing, there are numerous schools that have open sparring, smokers, and outside fight sessions.

 

[geezer]

You remind me of a remark one of my friends made to me. I told him how schools would have rooftop fights, and he said, "Ha! Yeah, try getting away with that today."

It made me wonder: not that I am condoning it, but why COULDN'T schools get away with it today? .

What Danny said. The only reason you don't have "rooftop fights" much is that (at least where I live) we don't do anything on our rooftops (except repair the roof or the A/C). And, of course for business and legal reasons, most schools won't condone those kind of fights. But young guys do that stuff all the time. In empty parking lots, backyards, or wherever.

I remember hanging out with a couple of Chinese kids back in the early eighties. We'd stop in at the "King Wah" restaurant way down on the South side at closing time, then go out back by the dumpster, and some of the guys would go at it. Sometimes pretty hard. A friend of mine, a Kenpo BB named Orville (his actual name!) got busted up pretty good once.

Afterwards, we'd all go inside and eat the leftover food from the buffet before it got thrown out. The owner taught some of these kids and was also friends with my old Chinese sifu, so he let us all eat for free. We'd talk about CMA for a while and then go off to the old Westdale Cinemas (long closed now) that showed those old Shaw Bros. movies from midnight till 3am (no DVDs in those days!). Interesting times.

 

[wingchun100]

I'm not talking about the schools condoning them. I'm just saying that I don't hear about anything like that. Everyone is worrying about being sued or having legal trouble, but it's interesting to read about stories from "back in the day" when they didn't seem to be as concerned, and such fights were more frequent. Or seemed to be, anyway.

 

[BrendonR]

It must evolve and so there is a, "do". Sibok Rocco Ambrose from Livonia, Mi. is very skilled martial artist and grandmaster. You should check into him if you want some new wing chun. He's been around for a while and he starts you without a belt.

 

[wtxs]

It must evolve and so there is a, "do". Sibok Rocco Ambrose from Livonia, Mi. is very skilled martial artist and grandmaster. You should check into him if you want some new wing chun. He's been around for a while and he starts you without a belt.

Don't mean to hijack. This person is trained under James DeMile's Wing Chun Do, he can not be the GRAND MASTER unless Mr. DeMile is no longer amongst us.

 

[wingchun100]

It must evolve and so there is a, "do". Sibok Rocco Ambrose from Livonia, Mi. is very skilled martial artist and grandmaster. You should check into him if you want some new wing chun. He's been around for a while and he starts you without a belt.

Adding a "do" to it doesn't necessarily prove evolution. What if he were a crackpot?

 

[geezer]

Don't mean to hijack. This person is trained under James DeMile's Wing Chun Do, he can not be the GRAND MASTER unless Mr. DeMile is no longer amongst us.

WTXS I'm afraid you are a little behind the times ...regarding rank inflation. Today's thinking is that if you teach students who themselves become teachers, then you must be a master, so if your students then raise their students up to instructor level, then they become masters and you become a master of masters, or a Grandmaster.

Of course, if you have a large organization or just promote quickly, soon some of your master-level students will become Grandmasters themselves, so naturally you become a Great-Grandmaster ...and so on.

So "Sibok" (Uncle?) Rocco is quite possibly a "Grandmaster" without having to wait for James DeMile to die. I'm not quite sure how DeMile became a Grandmaster himself, but that's nuthin. Heck, I once was a diciple of a "Professor, Doctor, Master-of-Almightyness!" For realz! LOL

 

[wtxs]

WTXS I'm afraid you are a little behind the times ...regarding rank inflation. Today's thinking is that if you teach students who themselves become teachers, then you must be a master, so if your students then raise their students up to instructor level, then they become masters and you become a master of masters, or a Grandmaster.

Of course, if you have a large organization or just promote quickly, soon some of your master-level students will become Grandmasters themselves, so naturally you become a Great-Grandmaster ...and so on.

So "Sibok" (Uncle?) Rocco is quite possibly a "Grandmaster" without having to wait for James DeMile to die. I'm not quite sure how DeMile became a Grandmaster himself, but that's nuthin. Heck, I once was a diciple of a "Professor, Doctor, Master-of-Almightyness!" For realz! LOL

You right about me being behind time in that aspect, for I'm an old fart just like yourself and I'm with you on the inflation of self worth. I rather see the return of the good old days when "master" was the head honcho of the system and everyone else meet their certification is called Sifu.

 

[yak sao]

that's nuthin. Heck, I once was a diciple of a "Professor, Doctor, Master-of-Almightyness!" For realz! LOL

Oh sure...you can make anything sound silly if you say it like that