Wing Chun Dummy?

[Bob Hubbard]

Pat,
When things are different from what we 'know', we tend to react or respond depending on various things. One of the reasons why this forum exists is so that we can all learn from each other.

Share your thoughts, experiences and ideas. Some will welcome, others reject, most sit in the middle, munch popcorn and place bets on the nekid posturing (or is that posteriors?) of the emperors.

Its all good, except for the rock throwing.... heh


Learned Debate is always good.

All that said, I have a few questions for ya...which to keep this thread focused on the mook, I'll ask in a seperate thread.

To keep this on topic...
What use does your system of Wing Chun put the mook to?


:asian:

 

[leehoicheun]

I did a search and found his styles site and as I thought....... it is a relatively new system. here is the site link http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/kskf/copy_of_index.html

after reading the history of the style I have found that they do indeed hit the wooden dummy. and I quote

powerful projection energy developed through impact hitting on the mook jong (wooden dummy).

This would lead me to believe that they must make the arms thicker and stronger to accommodate their heavier hitting. Even on the regular traditional dummies you can hit pretty hard but if you break the arms you've gone too far. I have seen styles of Wing Chun that use the dummy for conditioning the arms. Augustine Fong for example has a five strike conditioning drill he performs on the dummy....... but only uses minimal power.... just like iron palm training to slowly toughen the limbs.

There are principles that grandmaster Ip (Yip) Man himself laid out before all of his students. they are as followed:

Guard the Center
Face the Point of Contact
Economy of Movement
Touch Reflexes: Chi Sao
Watch the Leading Elbow
Use Linear Striking Action
Avoid Fighting Force Against Force
Train to Use Two Arms at the Same Time
Uses Pressure Points to Make Striking Techniques More Effective
Uses the Same Meridian Pressure Points as Treatment of Sports Injuries

in every style of Wing Chun I have investigated I have never come across a style that endorses beating on the wooden dummy. Each style consistently emphasizes using the dummy NOT for conditioning, but rather, for use in learning the proper angles. In the case of this new interpretation or should I say modification of Wing Chun called Kai Sai Yim Wing Chun, (created in 1981) they break away from the principles laid out by Ip Man. Is this good or bad? Only time will tell.

The main thing is this....... this is not a good representation of Wing Chun in general. When a person asks a question about WING CHUN they should be given a WING CHUN answer. Pat.... in the future I would be up-front about the fact that you are training in a modern and modified version of Wing Chun. That way traditional practitioners won't think you're crazy.

now.... about Grandmaster Lo Man Kam.... the teacher of Kai Sai. They DO NOT teach to beat on the dummy. They are a traditional WING CHUN school teaching the traditional WING CHUN system that was handed down to him from Great Grandmaster Ip Man. Sifu Duncan Leung is Lo Man Kam's younger kung fu brother. Duncan Leung is also a person I myself have learned a GREAT DEAL from.... and never once during Wooden Dummy training did he ever once teach to hit the dummy hard.

But anyway, like I said before, good luck in your modern version of Wing Chun but remember......... without root, there is no tree. In other words, to better understand your modern system, it is best to trace it to its roots.

 

[Pat]

Pat.... in the future I would be up-front about the fact that you are training in a modern and modified version of Wing Chun. That way traditional practitioners won't think you're crazy.

You are quite right, I did not know that our methods were that different from every one else's.
We do follow those principles, they are worded a bit differently though.
:drinkbeer

 

[leehoicheun]

We do follow those principles, they are worded a bit differently though.

that is not exactly true. By beating on the dummy you are fighting force with force. Fighting force with force means muscling into a persons attacks or defense instead of flowing around them. By excessively smashing the limbs of a wooden dummy you are training yourself to use strength instead of positioning and grace.

Think about the legends of Wing Chun, Ng Moi and Yim Wing Chun were female. Yim Wing Chun had to learn how to defend herself against a stronger, faster and better trained man quickly. The principle of not fighting force with force that was taught to her by Ng Moi was part of what defeated the bully.

We fight the way we train, if we hit the wooden dummy hard then we will be conditioned (wired) to do the same against a human adversary. If that person is much stronger then your hard hits your arms will fail and your defense destroyed.

In the Ip Chun school of Wing Chun (great grandmaster Ip Mans son) They talk about accuracy, energy and relaxation. And I quote: "And you must use the right amount of energy. Too much and you will get beaten, too little and you will also get beaten."
also: "Relaxation is also very important. If any part of your body is tense and making you rigid, your enemy can use your energy to fight back against you or to make you tired."

so to sumerize: The way you are using the dummy goes against the principle of not fighting force with force.

Pat.... I have come across many new versions of Wing Chun. 99% of the time they go against principle in order to become "new". Wing Chun is a complete combat system that has been proven in battle then and even now. Changing the system is not a bad thing.... as long as it follows the principles. If the principles are broken in any way, shape or form it is no longer Wing Chun.

 

[Pat]

OK. I can tell you are very passionate about Wing Chun.
And I sincerely wish you good luck also.
:drinkbeer