Wooden Dummy Question

[geezer]

...The Oriental way is, 'stay in the family', but after re-uniting, only one son trained hard, and he hadn't the years and knowledge of others. Another opportunist, a lo-fan no less [who wasn't a direct student, but claimed he was] said Ip told Him on his deathbed, that He was successor.. and that guy hooked up with Ip's other son. Then, people began copy-writing names.. WC, VT, WT, VC, etc. [THAT'S why those exist], for their business names. It became a poo-storm!
Then.. a longtime student living in Australia wrote an open letter to the others, stating that while living with Ip Man, during the last two years of his living in Hong Kong, He and only he, was taught the secrets of dim-mak within the 3rd form, and He and only he was the real successor. Well, all hell broke lose. He was disavowed, with almost everyone claiming he was just a part time student, just mainly hanging around and no one remembered. Especially hostile was the lo-fan.

I also have been involved with VT since that era. Some on here started even earlier. My advice is it's best to leave those old feuds in the past. BTW, I spent over a decade as a disciple of that "lo-fan" and could tell you some stories! But, truth be told, in spite of all that, he had an amazing mastery of VT. And he did learn the conceptual "icing" of the cake directly from GM Ip, even if, by the traditional standards he would not have been considered a "to-dai". Unfortunately, his public books and videos are very commercial and filled with a lot of garbage as well some good stuff.

The other Chinese gentleman, then living in Austrailia, also fabricated a lot of wild stories and "new movements" to make his system seem special, but honestly, he has produced some good, respected students and grand-students, some of whom contribute regularly to this forum.

Then there was the young German/Turkish thug that beat up that guy. I know him too. He eventually became more than just a tough fighter. He developed into a really adept master of his own very practical branch of Ip Man lineage "WT". I last saw him years back at a seminar with my Escrima instructor. Over dinner after the seminar, he told me he regrets being involved in that whole feud, as well as a later feud with the Gracies and now just focuses on teaching. He also has produced some very good, tough students.

On the other hand, you can find some students of the most universally respected senior disciples of Ip Man who never got it right. Ultimately, it's what you do that matters most, not the fame of your sifu, and certainly not these tired old arguments. Let's leave it at that, shall we?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ain't CMA politics grand

 

[Cephalopod]

^^^^
I admire your patience, Geez.

With regard to the OP, My sifu taught me the first section of the mook jong not that long after my SLT started getting polished, but the remaining sections were spaced out over many years.

I think that worked well for me as the jong can be used to understand some basic fundamentals but can also be used to work on some pretty hard-to-apply concepts.

As I'm teaching beginners I would find it disingenuous to hold back on the jong for several years. It's such a good tool for illustrating correct distancing, shifting footwork, passing power (etc., etc.,), all things that are needed for off-hand drilling.

 

[Jut]

I also have been involved with VT since that era. Some on here started even earlier. My advice is it's best to leave those old feuds in the past. BTW, I spent over a decade as a disciple of that "lo-fan" and could tell you some stories! But, truth be told, in spite of all that, he had an amazing mastery of VT. And he did learn the conceptual "icing" of the cake directly from GM Ip, even if, by the traditional standards he would not have been considered a "to-dai". Unfortunately, his public books and videos are very commercial and filled with a lot of garbage as well some good stuff.

The other Chinese gentleman, then living in Austrailia, also fabricated a lot of wild stories and "new movements" to make his system seem special, but honestly, he has produced some good, respected students and grand-students, some of whom contribute regularly to this forum.

Then there was the young German/Turkish thug that beat up that guy. I know him too. He eventually became more than just a tough fighter. He developed into a really adept master of his own very practical branch of Ip Man lineage "WT". I last saw him years back at a seminar with my Escrima instructor. Over dinner after the seminar, he told me he regrets being involved in that whole feud, as well as a later feud with the Gracies and now just focuses on teaching. He also has produced some very good, tough students.

On the other hand, you can find some students of the most universally respected senior disciples of Ip Man who never got it right. Ultimately, it's what you do that matters most, not the fame of your sifu, and certainly not these tired old arguments. Let's leave it at that, shall we?

It certainly wasn't my intention to either trash nor elevate anyone, my friend. Nor was it to blow wind on the sparks of any past feuds, as you imply. I believe most involved have mellowed and have commented on wishing they had chosen differently. There were two questions asked about 'when' the WM should be introduced in training, and the third form.
I'm sure you would agree, questions such as these almost always end up with "how did Ip do it?" Since his way is the barometer searched for by WC practitioners, I traveled back to a time many here have no knowledge of, or are not aware of, and offered to share my knowledge on these two matters.
I explained when "I" introduce the Jong, and why.. and I explained when Ip Man introduced it in his curriculum.. according to Bruce Lee's [and others] personal experience.
The third form was a very controversial issue [as are the knives] at that time, and today there are quite diverse applications. This part of WC history, where something in particular originated, in this case possibly the third form, is also something, not just myself, but many others find fascinating as well. That part of history that contains the possible origin of the third form lands us in a dark place.
I named no names and spoke of the historical wrestling of who would be Ip's successor, and one happens to be your SiFu. I referred to him correctly, Geezer, as lo-fan, not fully Asian.. not Gwailo, a more derogatory term. I have also heard he is quite knowledgeable. Anyone who studied under Leung Sheung [according to LS] should be. I never mentioned a German, nor any personal feuds.. just a sliver of history, albeit touchy.
Because of your close connection, I think perhaps you took this account a bit too personal. Understood. My objective was, thru edification, to try and bring a possible understanding/explanation as to why so much extreme diversity on this 3rd form, all taught from the same SiFu? No feudal kindling meant.

 

[anerlich]

I named no names

I will. William Cheung. My Sigung up until 1995. The other principal mentioned was Leung Ting.

Why pussyfoot around the subject when anyone who's been around more than a year or two knows exactly who you are talking about?

Stories were interesting the first fifteen times I heard them. Less so now, several decades later. He made similar claims decades later at a forum in HK where he and all the usual suspects were physically present, same result.

That no one wanted to fight him over such a claim might mean the rest of them are cowards, or OTOH are too sensible or insufficiently motivated to worry about claims which are basically unverifiable.

Internecine TCMA challenges have become preposterous in the age of MMA.

Every Yip Man lineage has its own highly improbable stories and grandiose claims. As, no doubt, do most of the non-YM lineages.

I'm sure you would agree, questions such as these almost always end up with "how did Ip do it?" Since his way is the barometer searched for by WC practitioners

I don't agree. YM's been dead for over 40 years. If all the research on motor learning and sports science since hasn't delivered better training methods and curricula, and no student has reached or surpassed YM's capabilities as a teacher, we are a sorry, hero-worshipping lot indeed, and Wing Chun is deservedly destined for obscurity, acrimony, and decay.

We are teaching physical skills, not transmitting dogma. For the first, there will always be room for improvement and evolution.

His skills as a practitioner are legendary (literally), but IMO not so his teaching. There's no question that he totally flubbed succession planning.

 

[Jut]

Why pussyfoot around the subject when anyone who's been around more than a year or two knows exactly who you are talking about?

One reason was the subject was not about individuals, it was about what was extracted by your SiFu that struck me as important to the subject being discussed. It's called 'discretion'. While You may not wonder about why all the differences from one teacher, others do.

We are teaching physical skills, not transmitting dogma. For the first, there will always be room for improvement and evolution.

I agree. My thoughts on that were posted in the Question forum, "Does anyone know anything about the Practical Wing Chun system?

His skills as a practitioner are legendary (literally), but IMO not so his teaching. There's no question that he totally flubbed succession planning.

Your opinion. Cancer can do that.

 

[Vajramusti]

I will. William Cheung. My Sigung up until 1995. The other principal mentioned was Leung Ting.

Why pussyfoot around the subject when anyone who's been around more than a year or two knows exactly who you are talking about?

-------------------------------------------------------------
No pussy footing on my part. I respect Anerlich's and Geezer's views and their narratives about their experiences with Cheung and Leung Ting. But I have learned zero wing chun from Cheung or LT.
I am happy with what I have learned and the wing chun long run dynamics and the path that I have taken.

Too bad that Ip Man's economic distress after the communist revolution
led him to teach many people superficially and the resulting .consequences in the world of commerce. Seeing the continuing progress of my competent kung fu brothers and sisters in Arizona is additional affirmation that I chose the right path.

At age 84 meniscus deterioration in the knees limits running but I make footwork adjustments for close quarter work. My hands and mental clarity are in good shape. All in all-Much to be thankful about.

 

[geezer]

It certainly wasn't my intention to either trash nor elevate anyone...

....I named no names and spoke of the historical wrestling of who would be Ip's successor, and one happens to be your SiFu. I referred to him correctly, Geezer, as lo-fan, not fully Asian...

Because of your close connection, I think perhaps you took this account a bit too personal. Understood.

No worries Jut. Honestly, I have not trained under my old Sifu since the early 90's, and currently have no connection with him or his organization. A simple correction though. Contrary to common assertions of that period, that "lo han" Leung Ting is Chinese. Early on, he did use pictures of himself in his books that might have made him look more Occidental or perhaps South Asian/Indian --possibly as a method to promote himself in the Western market? But if you look at other pictures of him and his brother (Leung Kwoon) or look into his family history, you will learn that this was just another "tall tail" fabricated by his opponents in that contentious era.

Frankly the whole assertion is irrelevant anyway and smacks of racism. Best to drop the whole subject.

 

[anerlich]

Best to drop the whole subject.

Agreed.

 

[Jut]

No worries Jut. Honestly, I have not trained under my old Sifu since the early 90's, and currently have no connection with him or his organization. A simple correction though. Contrary to common assertions of that period, that "lo han" Leung Ting is Chinese. Early on, he did use pictures of himself in his books that might have made him look more Occidental or perhaps South Asian/Indian --possibly as a method to promote himself in the Western market? But if you look at other pictures of him and his brother (Leung Kwoon) or look into his family history, you will learn that this was just another "tall tail" fabricated by his opponents in that contentious era.

Frankly the whole assertion is irrelevant anyway and smacks of racism. Best to drop the whole subject.

Yes.. agreed my friend. Honestly, I believe that feud only exists in the past.
'My' personal quandary is, why such diverse teachings from the same SiFu? At times I found that I can come across as a bull in a China closet.. [pun intended], and with such an edified audience, it is apparent I need to be clearer in where I am going.
I appreciate the inside info on the lo-fan aspect. I don't want to come across as argumentative.. yet your last sentence is puzzling..

Frankly the whole assertion is irrelevant anyway and smacks of racism.

That is a naïve or dismissive comment.. as Chinese racism was very much alive at that time.. and IMHO is still alive and well! I experienced it first hand in a famous Hawaiian Hung-gar school, and something my [close] Chinese friends will second, as they couldn't care less about being PC.
Anyway.. regardless. To disagree without being disagreeable, is honorable.. and IS Wing Chun.

 

[geezer]

... as Chinese racism was very much alive at that time.. and IMHO is still alive and well! I experienced it first hand in a famous Hawaiian Hung-gar school, and something my [close] Chinese friends will second, as they couldn't care less about being PC...

Jut, I totally agree with your observation that Chinese racism, like American racism, was and still is rampant. And It was not surprising when some WC/VT factions tried to appeal to this kind of racism to discredit my old sifu by saying that he somehow wasn't fully Chinese. And to be honest, my old sifu, being of that generation, was not exempt from such behavior himself. While he did not refer to us (his disciples) as gweilo or pakgwei, he did use the term occasionally, as well as the term hakgwei (roughly equivalent to the "N-word") to refer to blacks.

I found this offensive, and even thought many would say it wasn't my place, I did politely suggest to him that such terms in either English or Cantonese would not be well received in this country. His response was actually pretty positive, and he pointed out that he was rather proud of some of his Black students at the time, such as Ron Van Clief.

I hope you also have found a chance to share this insight with your Hung Ga friends "who couldn't care less about being PC." I don't care about being PC either, and can also enjoy light-hearted joking among my martial arts friends (who are ethnically very diverse). On the other hand, if it goes beyond being friendly joking to truly offensive behavior, I believe you have to speak up, otherwise your silence enables and encourages such behaviors.

 

[anerlich]

To disagree without being disagreeable, ... IS Wing Chun.

My experience on multiple Wing Chun forums indicates the opposite, on percentages

 

[Jut]

Jut, I totally agree with your observation that Chinese racism, like American racism, was and still is rampant. And It was not surprising when some WC/VT factions tried to appeal to this kind of racism to discredit my old sifu by saying that he somehow wasn't fully Chinese. And to be honest, my old sifu, being of that generation, was not exempt from such behavior himself. While he did not refer to us (his disciples) as gweilo or pakgwei, he did use the term occasionally, as well as the term hakgwei (roughly equivalent to the "N-word") to refer to blacks.

I found this offensive, and even thought many would say it wasn't my place, I did politely suggest to him that such terms in either English or Cantonese would not be well received in this country. His response was actually pretty positive, and he pointed out that he was rather proud of some of his Black students at the time, such as Ron Van Clief.

I hope you also have found a chance to share this insight with your Hung Ga friends "who couldn't care less about being PC." I don't care about being PC either, and can also enjoy light-hearted joking among my martial arts friends (who are ethnically very diverse). On the other hand, if it goes beyond being friendly joking to truly offensive behavior, I believe you have to speak up, otherwise your silence enables and encourages such behaviors.

Agreed. Considering the grief they've had to endure over the last two centuries, with the Japanese in the Mainland.. treatment from India police in HK, one can understand those views. In spite of this, I don't believe I've ever run into a culture with a more jovial, 'find humor in almost everything' attitude, than the Chinese.
The movie/documentary 'Nanking' gives much insight into their concerns and prejudices. I highly recommend it, but it is heartbreaking. -Any who do.. carry tissues.
Yes, something done in ignorance or non-malice is quite different than when done to hurt or elevate oneself. Your revealing that negative information to your SiFu was what a good friend would do. Accepting it shows humility, as well.
Sorry Geezer, I see I wasn't clear about Hawaii. I was alone in Oahu [1973] when I tried to join the Hung-gar school and was denied. I was truly puzzled, because at that time [and many years following] there were many articles about both him and that school. There were many students working out front behind a chain link fence, and when I asked, I was told the teacher wasn't there, but I also understood the snickering and caught 'sei pak gwei' in one comment. One of the few times I broke my rule.. 'fight only when threatened'. Wont bore you with details other than just a good hit to the sternum. I lived in a bad area and didn't have to run, too far. hahaha.

At that time, Hawaii was rife with prejudice, but on the opposite side of the coin, I got to meet and spend some time with a guy who was 'openly' teaching a new concept he was developing called 'small circle' JJ. There was also a well known Kenpo teacher on the Island, who taught openly. He lamented that his peers were not all in agreement with this openness.
You know, it did seem peculiar Geezer, regarding your old SiFu, that he would be in that arena of 'successor' if that be the case.. especially when considering Ip was maneuvered by irritated students to release Bruce Lee from the school, when they exposed him as part German. I liked that Ip had a couple seniors continue his limited training.
IMHO, it's quite an honor to have been part of the early promotion of WC outside China.. especially a whole country, like Germany. Your SiFu's training Gainsburg was quite a seed for that area, and a special feather in his hat.

Another note.. I wanted to share something with you that I ran across this AM, on a topic we discussed earlier but I'm not sure how to PM. Thought you might find it interesting, and wanted your take as well. Any tips? Thanks

 

[wingchun100]

In the previous school I went to, it was SLT, CK, dummy, BJ, pole, knives.

The reason he saved BJ for last is because it was considered something only the most "advanced" students learned. He really took that phrase "Biu Jee never goes out the door" to heart.

 

[DanT]

In the previous school I went to, it was SLT, CK, dummy, BJ, pole, knives.

The reason he saved BJ for last is because it was considered something only the most "advanced" students learned. He really took that phrase "Biu Jee never goes out the door" to heart.

At my old gwoon, Biu Jee was taught last, after the knives and pole even. I think as long as SLT and CK come first, you can learn anything after that and be pretty decent. I learned the knives after CK for example.

 

[wingchun100]

At my old gwoon, Biu Jee was taught last, after the knives and pole even. I think as long as SLT and CK come first, you can learn anything after that and be pretty decent. I learned the knives after CK for example.

Yes, I have always felt the dummy form was basically applying what you learned in SLT and CK to something that took up physical space.

 

[wingerjim]

In the previous school I went to, it was SLT, CK, dummy, BJ, pole, knives.

The reason he saved BJ for last is because it was considered something only the most "advanced" students learned. He really took that phrase "Biu Jee never goes out the door" to heart.

That is also how we do it. In fact we begin the dummy even earlier but not the dummy form, just some movements on the dummy to get the student used to the feel and to get them to settle in their stance. It is fun to see back into the past as I was new watching people lean forward to push the dummy or get rocked back when making contact. This training helps them with the other forms as it teaches them to settle and not fight the stance.