Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Rusty B]

I get the impression that to a certain degree ninjitsu is considered by themselves as a civilian version of special forces.

They consider themselves to be "ninjas" too, so I don't put much weight on that.

I've entered "ninjutsu vs" and "bujinkan vs" and everything else I could think of on YouTube, and of all the fights I've seen - both real and sparring - they're like, 0 and 50+. And in the comments section of every one these videos, there are ninjutsu apologists claiming that what was in the video was either a poor representation of ninjutsu, or not "real" ninjutsu at all. Funny as hell to read.

Seems to me that ninjutsu SHOULD be training on how to run from fights!

 

[dunc]

Without getting into the whole ninja rat hole
The principle idea in the traditional styles’ approach to escape is to cause an injury then run. The areas targeted are chosen because they will slow down your attacker
The lesson is that if you simply run then as soon as you hit an obstacle your opponent will likely catch up with you and you have your back turned. A fair amount of fatal stabbings in the UK fit this pattern (I guess like a rout)
It’s not rocket science & doesn’t need a whole lot of study, but I do think it’s a valid, simple concept that might make a key difference to your SD training

 

[Hanzou]

Without getting into the whole ninja rat hole
The principle idea in the traditional styles’ approach to escape is to cause an injury then run. The areas targeted are chosen because they will slow down your attacker
The lesson is that if you simply run then as soon as you hit an obstacle your opponent will likely catch up with you and you have your back turned. A fair amount of fatal stabbings in the UK fit this pattern (I guess like a rout)
It’s not rocket science & doesn’t need a whole lot of study, but I do think it’s a valid, simple concept that might make a key difference to your SD training

It’s the same philosophy in Bjj. You choke or immobilize and then you escape. The immobilization factor is one big reason why their use in leg locks intrigues me.

 

[dunc]

It’s the same philosophy in Bjj. You choke or immobilize and then you escape. The immobilization factor is one big reason why their use in leg locks intrigues me.

Yeah I think the logic holds particularly with leg locks
Bear in mind this is a situation where you feel the risk is so high that you need to escape (as opposed getting an opponent under your control and waiting for help)
The trade off with chokes is the risk you’re taking during the time it takes to set them up and finish. Leg locks are quicker and pretty surprising to people, but often rely on you being on the floor for a period of time, which also is a trade off
If you can take someone down and control them there may be other options available to you that have less downside risk
Obviously there are also options that don’t require a take down

 

[drop bear]

Without getting into the whole ninja rat hole
The principle idea in the traditional styles’ approach to escape is to cause an injury then run. The areas targeted are chosen because they will slow down your attacker
The lesson is that if you simply run then as soon as you hit an obstacle your opponent will likely catch up with you and you have your back turned. A fair amount of fatal stabbings in the UK fit this pattern (I guess like a rout)
It’s not rocket science & doesn’t need a whole lot of study, but I do think it’s a valid, simple concept that might make a key difference to your SD training

Ok. But let's specifically get in to this rat hole.

Who has tested this to know it works? Because we have three options.

Just run and don't engage.

Engage with a stunning move and run.

Engage, cripple the guy and walk.

I think I could find an example where all three options have worked. But I couldn't tell you which one works best under what conditions.

 

[drop bear]

It’s the same philosophy in Bjj. You choke or immobilize and then you escape. The immobilization factor is one big reason why their use in leg locks intrigues me.

Man. Start being the guy who promotes imanari rolls for sd.

You would make SDers heads explode.

 

[Hanzou]

Man. Start being the guy who promotes imanari rolls for sd.

You would make SDers heads explode.

All day! Love the Imanari Roll.

Also Ryan Hall did it better

 

[dunc]

Ok. But let's specifically get in to this rat hole.

Who has tested this to know it works? Because we have three options.

Just run and don't engage.

Engage with a stunning move and run.

Engage, cripple the guy and walk.

I think I could find an example where all three options have worked. But I couldn't tell you which one works best under what conditions.

I’d say they are all viable approaches depending on the situation
There’s a good amount of evidence from London stabbings that just running isn’t without its risks
And I think it’s self evident that the time taken in the dangerous situation clearly increases as you go down your list

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. But let's specifically get in to this rat hole.

Who has tested this to know it works? Because we have three options.

Just run and don't engage.

Engage with a stunning move and run.

Engage, cripple the guy and walk.

I think I could find an example where all three options have worked. But I couldn't tell you which one works best under what conditions.

Agreed. We can apply a bit of logic to get some notions (if you're not a fast runner, #1 only works if they don't chase), but I don't know we could really test it reliably.

 

[Hanzou]

I really like what I'm seeing out of this gym;

They appear to be combining wrestling, Judo, Gracie JJ standup, and whatever the heck Cobra Kai JJ was/is and creating a nice little fighting system with BJJ as their base. I do hope that American/Western JJ moves in the general direction this group is going in.

 

[dunc]

It's OK, but not sure how this fits with your criteria of tried and tested technique?
For example, in my experience, some of what he shows is really hard to pull off against resisting partners (especially ones who use both arms in their chokes and don't let go...)

 

[Hanzou]

It's OK, but not sure how this fits with your criteria of tried and tested technique?
For example, in my experience, some of what he shows is really hard to pull off against resisting partners (especially ones who use both arms in their chokes and don't let go...)

Which are you talking about? If you're talking about the video above, that series comes from Gracie JJ, so yeah its been tested. Rickson Gracie explains the principles behind that throw in this video at the 9 minute mark;

Btw, that entire video is good.

 

[O'Malley]

Do you have videos of that technique against a resisting opponent? I'm curious as how you train rear attacks against full resistance.

 

[Hanzou]

Do you have videos of that technique against a resisting opponent? I'm curious as how you train rear attacks against full resistance.

No, but if you have guys like Rickson Gracie, Dean Lister, John Danaher, and Stephan Kesting all vouching for the technique, I'd consider it legit.

 

[O'Malley]

No, but if you have guys like Rickson Gracie, Dean Lister, John Danaher, and Stephan Kesting all vouching for the technique, I'd consider it legit.

That's the same reasoning as TMA people who say "if guys like X and Y in ancient Japan vouched for it, then I'd consider it legit". Then why question the effectiveness of classical JJ, which has been tested in actual combat over decades, if not centuries?

 

[Steve]

That's the same reasoning as TMA people who say "if guys like X and Y in ancient Japan vouched for it, then I'd consider it legit". Then why question the effectiveness of classical JJ, which has been tested in actual combat over decades, if not centuries?

When you look at a plane that was made by Airbus, do you question whether it can fly? What if it was a plane made by your neighbor in his garage? Credibility matters.

If credible sources can demonstrate that a technique or skill is effective, then you can be pretty confident the technique or skill is useful, even if you can't execute the technique reliably or well, or apply the skill under pressure. And, it's still up to you to learn how to do it well enough for it to be useful.

 

[O'Malley]

I don't disagree but that does not answer my question, as the analogy is off the mark here.

Lots of classical jujutsu styles have a long history of effectiveness in real combat and the environment that shaped their evolution would not allow otherwise (sparring and friendly competition existed, but the stakes could also be much higher than now, as losing a duel could mean losing your life or livelihood). There may be some kahō ("flowery") methods that developed in peacetime but lots of classical Japanese arts have undergone a lot of battle-testing in the context they were meant for and were refined over decades, if not centuries.

Heck, the "competion/sparring is superior to kata" debate is very, very old and you can literally read it in medieval Japanese texts. Really nothing new under the sun.

There are also modern koryu masters who have participated in competitive matches against exponents of other schools. They just don't brag about it.

See: Taryū Shiai & Other Oppositional Matches Within Japanese Martial Traditions – 古現武道

Really, the crux of this thread is not the effectiveness of classical jujutsu, but people's ignorance about it.

 

[Hanzou]

That's the same reasoning as TMA people who say "if guys like X and Y in ancient Japan vouched for it, then I'd consider it legit". Then why question the effectiveness of classical JJ, which has been tested in actual combat over decades, if not centuries?

Because there's no way to verify those stories are true. We have multiple examples of Martial Art folktales that are completely baseless and made up. The stories of Choki Motobu and Hou Yuanjai immediately come to mind.

Even Rickson Gracie embellished his record to make himself look better than he actually was. However, unlike Motobu and Yuanjai, Rickson Gracie actually won some tournaments against some very good fighters. Also he comes from a family of fighters who all pretty much say he's the best in the family.

We should also remember that in the case of classical Japanese JJ, you had almost three hundred years (from 1603 to before the start of Meiji period in the 1860s) where no major battles or conflicts took place in Japan, and the JJJ that developed in that period wasn't really cultivated in any sort of battlefield environment. A good portion (if not the majority) of classical JJ practiced today comes from that period.

Back to the point; Gracie, Lister, Kesting, and Danaher have a well earned reputation. Lister and Gracie earned it in the ring, Kesting and Danaher earned it on the teaching side of things. If all those guys agree that a technique is worth learning and is legit, I would be hard pressed to disagree.

 

[drop bear]

Do you have videos of that technique against a resisting opponent? I'm curious as how you train rear attacks against full resistance.

It is a weird one because it is a position rarely gone for.

We do a fair bit of resisted back defence but the attacks are normally things like throws. In other words a young buck get there he will generally try to suplex me, not choke me.

There should be some video of that.

Here is a back take. But straight to a takedown.
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[dunc]

Back to the point; Gracie, Lister, Kesting, and Danaher have a well earned reputation. Lister and Gracie earned it in the ring, Kesting and Danaher earned it on the teaching side of things. If all those guys agree that a technique is worth learning and is legit, I would be hard pressed to disagree.

Curious what level of competence do you feel qualifies someone to determine if a technique is valid without pressure testing it?

BJJ Purple, BJJ Black?
Judo 1st Dan?
etc