Wide, Traditional or Narrow?

[Gyakuto]

Although an extremely flawed ‘study’, the data is interesting. Which do you prefer and why?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Yes, very interesting and I generally agree with the conclusions. Totaling up the scores:

Wide: 27 - powerful but not as accurate
Traditional: 28 - all-round best
Narrow: 25.5 - quick and deceptive

I learned the "wide" method back in the 60's as the "correct" way, even though there was no full contact competition then. (Rarely went to the head per traditional Okinawan practice.) Practiced it kicking over a chair placed just in front of the kicking foot.

But when competing in point tournaments I sometimes used the "narrow" method to use the vertical chambering to feint a front kick (I would first throw of couple of low front kicks to set it up) then "flip" it up to a higher-level roundhouse - very effective.

The study left out this important factor: Blocking the kick. IMO, having the kick come in on a horizontal angle makes it harder to block than if it comes in on a more diagonal angle. Also harder to leg check the kick this way. I would add a point to the wide method for this reason, giving it the same score as the "traditional" (I put that word in quotes as I'm not certain the wide method isn't traditional in the "old-style" sense of the word).

 

[Gyakuto]

I was always bemused by the wide roundhouse. It was so easy to spot, left the groin exposed and so slow as to be pretty straightforward to avoid. I assumed it was used as a exercise in awkwardness to make the narrower chambering much easier to accommodate.

In Wado Ryu the ‘traditional’ and ‘narrow’ were used depending on the situation and my favourite move was to feint with a low narrow snappy kick and when my opponents hands went down reflexly, use a traditional kick, with it’s wider arc, to clear the arms and up to the head.

I think the point system he uses is so arbitrary as to be meaningless. A flicky, unseen roundhouse kick to a head, balanced on a relaxed neck, can easily cause knockout and because of these factors could well be a not infrequent occurrence whereas a slow, hard kick making contact with a head move away in the same direction as the travel of the foot might do very little.

 

[Buka]

There are a different ways to throw roundhouse kicks, different ways to block/evade roundhouse kicks and different ways to counter them. My guess is everybody does all of them a little different.

You usually find out fairly quickly what works for you.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Although an extremely flawed ‘study’, the data is interesting. Which do you prefer and why?

I give this “study” a 2/10. I don’t use that kick that way in the first place.

 

[drop bear]

I was always bemused by the wide roundhouse. It was so easy to spot, left the groin exposed and so slow as to be pretty straightforward to avoid. I assumed it was used as a exercise in awkwardness to make the narrower chambering much easier to accommodate.

In Wado Ryu the ‘traditional’ and ‘narrow’ were used depending on the situation and my favourite move was to feint with a low narrow snappy kick and when my opponents hands went down reflexly, use a traditional kick, with it’s wider arc, to clear the arms and up to the head.

I think the point system he uses is so arbitrary as to be meaningless. A flicky, unseen roundhouse kick to a head, balanced on a relaxed neck, can easily cause knockout and because of these factors could well be a not infrequent occurrence whereas a slow, hard kick making contact with a head move away in the same direction as the travel of the foot might do very little.

You don't throw it in isolation.

 

[Holmejr]

So, would the Muay Thai round kick be considered wide. It seems that the MT folk have it over the narrow kick folk in most competitions. In TKD/HKD we used front chamber kicking. In MT we’re taught to chamber to the side to facilitate the hip turn going through the target. The side chamber is used to also block kicks and to facilitate the skip kick.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I wasn't swayed by the video one way or another. I don't know anything about the creator of the video, but it seems to me that these "versus" kinds of videos are invariably filmed by someone with a technical and/or philosophical predisposition to one of the options presented. In this case, his performance of the "wide" round kick had me wondering who actually throws that. It looked like a poorly performed interpretation of the thai-style round kick, stripped of context (e.g., setup, timing, footwork, angle, etc.). I've never seen anyone throw a round kick as presented in that video. Not as a technical and stylistic DECISION anyway. As an early effort to learn the thai-style round kick, perhaps. But comparing a transitional attempt to learn a delivery system against a properly executed "traditional" or narrow round kick seems weird to me.

Before I say more, though, I guess I'm looking for some clarity. Are people saying that the "wide" round kick in this video is representative of what seasoned muay thai fighters are throwing? If not, WHO is throwing their round kick this way?

 

[isshinryuronin]

I was always bemused by the wide roundhouse. It was so easy to spot, left the groin exposed and so slow as to be pretty straightforward to avoid.

These concerns are valid for the way this kick is widely used today - as a long-range high-level attack.

HOWEVER, when used close-in to a low-level target it is hard to see, is rather fast (if you know how to generate speed quickly) and accordingly, gives limited exposure to the groin.

You don't throw it in isolation.

This is an excellent point. I use tai sabaki (some footwork and body motion) to make the opponent create openings in his defensive position. Hand feints are also useful. In both cases (they can be combined) timing is required. In traditional Okinawan style (self-defense combat) kicks are often done while having hold of the opponent's arm. This very much changes the dynamics.

How it's executed and used makes a big difference. There is a time and place for all three methods described in the OP. As mentioned in this and my previous post, there are a number of factors that can be considered beyond what the OP video uses as criteria.

 

[Gyakuto]

Please add these comments to the the Youtubers video; it’s good feedback for him.

 

[Gyakuto]

Before I say more, though, I guess I'm looking for some clarity. Are people saying that the "wide" round kick in this video is representative of what seasoned muay thai fighters are throwing? If not, WHO is throwing their round kick this way?

The wide roundhouse is definitely taught to students of Shotokan. Whether they use it in that fashion in sparring is another matter; I doubt it since it’s telegraphed and slow. If that is the case, why teach it at all?

My suspicion and experience suggests that most experienced practitioners vary their angle of launch depending upon the fighting situation; an opponent with a high guard might warrant a wider launching position, a quick opponent might warrant a narrow trajectory and everything in between.

 

[ap Oweyn]

The wide roundhouse is definitely taught to students of Shotokan. Whether they use it in that fashion in sparring is another matter; I doubt it since it’s telegraphed and slow. If that is the case, why teach it at all?

My suspicion and experience suggests that most experienced practitioners vary their angle of launch depending upon the fighting situation; an opponent with a high guard might warrant a wider launching position, a quick opponent might warrant a narrow trajectory and everything in between.

Huh. That's interesting. I only studied shotokan for about three months (as a university PE class). Clearly we didn't get that far.

Having transitioned from taekwondo to things like muay thai, I can certainly see the value in a widER round kick. But not the way he's describing in this video.

 

[Gyakuto]

Huh. That's interesting. I only studied shotokan for about three months (as a university PE class). Clearly we didn't get that far.

 

[Holmejr]

In the FMA folks use both narrow and wide, just typically sciatic nerve down. Narrow for inside leg targets. For the most part…

 

[ap Oweyn]

So are those examples of the wide round kick? Neither of those seemed to have the exaggerated "openness" from the original video. And, if I heard correctly, the first video explicitly says "not like this" as they show a movement that most closely resembles what's demonstrated in the initial video. In the second video, the first movement of the kick is explicitly a pivoting motion that closes that centerline before the kick. So neither of these seem "perilously" open to me.

Or were these demonstrations of the "traditional" kick?

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding.

 

[HighKick]

Although an extremely flawed ‘study’, the data is interesting. Which do you prefer and why?

Fully depends on what I want the kick to do.