Wide stances and ending your forms on the same spot

[Gerry Seymour]

Actual songs? No.

Hmm...seems we may be well matched, after all. Let's hope Kramer doesn't show up for sparring.

 

[jobo]

No, it's not a red herring (maybe look up that term - I don't think it means what you think it means). It's just a random number used to simplify the discussion. Choose literally any number you like in its place, and my statements don't change. You can vary your stride and end up in the same spot, under certain circumstances. A very simple example (since you've decided to die on this hill) would be a form that, within its movements, has 3 steps in each direction. If you change all 12 steps (3 x 4) by the same amount, the net result is 0.

Tell me again why that's impossible, because all you've done so far is say over and over, "Nuh-uh, can't do that!"

no yourstride variation is from one stride to the next, not a constant stride pattern, that 10,20, 50% bigger than every one else. as soon as you decided to do a 25 inch stride instead of your normal 23 inch, then you wont make it back to the same spot y two inches,do 12 of those and you two foot away

 

[dvcochran]

At the Karate school where I teach now, I've seen the black belts practicing kata. They specifically talk about some of the variations, and the ranking BB often just waves them off as "whichever works for you". And they do get tested on them for grading. I'm not sure how the testing works, and how much variation is accepted at what level, but it does happen.

Don't let you imagination run too far. I am not encouraging "do it your way". I am saying slight variations are ok to help someone learn the gist of a movement. Then you have to start polishing it. Will/should everyone look exactly the same? I still say it is a fools errand to think so. My GM and I were talking after class tonight(about an hour ago)and he was stressing how we must teach the elements within each movement. A down block is not one move but many. How you make power is predicated on many things. How you transition from move to move is complex. If we try to load a new student with all of it the first night/week/month, it is unlikely they will get any of it right.
So I hope the BB's you mentioned recognized this and were not missing some key teaching moments.

 

[Earl Weiss]

you said you spent 18 years doing a ma you didn't understand , that's really odd to invest a quarter of a life time learning something with iut either asking for or receiving a satisfactory explanation. at the very least we can surmise that your instructor didn't understand it either !

What I sad was "Only then did I understand some of the reasons " Therein lies the caveat .
As concerns my instructor(s) not knowing and not understanding some things of that there is no doubt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no yourstride variation is from one stride to the next, not a constant stride pattern, that 10,20, 50% bigger than every one else. as soon as you decided to do a 25 inch stride instead of your normal 23 inch, then you wont make it back to the same spot y two inches,do 12 of those and you two foot away

Again, if you change from 23 inches to 25 inches, but make the same adjustment (+2") to the same number of steps in each direction, then the net is 0. It depends upon the form.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Don't let you imagination run too far. I am not encouraging "do it your way". I am saying slight variations are ok to help someone learn the gist of a movement. Then you have to start polishing it. Will/should everyone look exactly the same? I still say it is a fools errand to think so. My GM and I were talking after class tonight(about an hour ago)and he was stressing how we must teach the elements within each movement. A down block is not one move but many. How you make power is predicated on many things. How you transition from move to move is complex. If we try to load a new student with all of it the first night/week/month, it is unlikely they will get any of it right.
So I hope the BB's you mentioned recognized this and were not missing some key teaching moments.

No, the lead belt was actually talking about why the variations were acceptable. It wasn't just a matter of doing whatever they wanted, but that there were a number of options that fit the basic movement, and all of them were useful.

It may well be in their case that they start with a single "right" movement (with appropriate variations for body differences) at lower levels, and allow more variation at higher levels. That has been my approach, though I tend to allow more variation, earlier than is probably ideal.

 

[jobo]

Again, if you change from 23 inches to 25 inches, but make the same adjustment (+2") to the same number of steps in each direction, then the net is 0. It depends upon the form.

to do that you would have to know that it had been carried in the first place and by exactly how much

 

[Gerry Seymour]

to do that you would have to know that it had been carried in the first place and by exactly how much

Or, you'd just have to be consistent in your movement.

But, yeah, it's pretty easily possible to know when you're off in a form, especially if it has points where it re-crosses one of the axes of the starting point. Mind you, if you're off by 3", neither you (if it's midway) nor the judge (if it's at the end) is likely to notice that. If you're off by the 12" you mentioned earlier, that'd be easy to notice (again, at specific points in a form) for both of you.

 

[dvcochran]

No, the lead belt was actually talking about why the variations were acceptable. It wasn't just a matter of doing whatever they wanted, but that there were a number of options that fit the basic movement, and all of them were useful.

It may well be in their case that they start with a single "right" movement (with appropriate variations for body differences) at lower levels, and allow more variation at higher levels. That has been my approach, though I tend to allow more variation, earlier than is probably ideal.

Agree. That should be a natural part of the maturation process. My GM and I were talking last night about how it is normal for a new student to have "blinders" on from the information overload. As time go by they process the information better and should see more of what a move is or can be.

 

[jobo]

Or, you'd just have to be consistent in your movement.

But, yeah, it's pretty easily possible to know when you're off in a form, especially if it has points where it re-crosses one of the axes of the starting point. Mind you, if you're off by 3", neither you (if it's midway) nor the judge (if it's at the end) is likely to notice that. If you're off by the 12" you mentioned earlier, that'd be easy to notice (again, at specific points in a form) for both of you.

but then we have gone full circle, theres no practicle benfit from uniform stepping, unless it's for Kata as a performance art, infact it is quite possibly a backward step( pun intended) if Kata is to help cement movement patterns for " combat" . then you want a stride pattern that is big step, big step, to close or open distances and small step to fine tune the distance for you kick or punch.

teaching someone to move in uniform steps means it's highly unlikely them will end up at optimum range for a strike, if they compensate that by doing all small steps, it makes them slower across the ground

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agree. That should be a natural part of the maturation process. My GM and I were talking last night about how it is normal for a new student to have "blinders" on from the information overload. As time go by they process the information better and should see more of what a move is or can be.

In fact, it's not uncommon for a newer student to "hear" things a certain way. Years later, they'll see someone do a variation and ask why. Overhearing, the instructor replies, "Why not?" And the student responds, "You told me it had to be X way."

"No, that's what you heard."

Often, it's a matter of a student mistaking a correction for a restriction or requirement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but then we have gone full circle, theres no practicle benfit from uniform stepping, unless it's for Kata as a performance art, infact it is quite possibly a backward step( pun intended) if Kata is to help cement movement patterns for " combat" . then you want a stride pattern that is big step, big step, to close or open distances and small step to fine tune the distance for you kick or punch.

teaching someone to move in uniform steps means it's highly unlikely them will end up at optimum range for a strike, if they compensate that by doing all small steps, it makes them slower across the ground

Actually, there's some reasonable argument to be made for having a consistent base to work from. So, you learn a "standard" step and depth for each stance. Variations are made from that point, with an understanding of the purpose of the variation, rather than simply stepping a random distance each time.

 

[jobo]

Actually, there's some reasonable argument to be made for having a consistent base to work from. So, you learn a "standard" step and depth for each stance. Variations are made from that point, with an understanding of the purpose of the variation, rather than simply stepping a random distance each time.

that installing a movement pattern that you then have to install another one over the top off, which wastes development time, and theres a fair chance they will revert to the inial less efficient one under stress.

and it's not " random steps " people have an optimum stride length for quick movement, and it's at that pitch they need to practise, eastern ma seemingly having been design ed for people who are 5.6 with short legs. the regulation step may not be best for a 6,2 guy or girl with long legs. then a shorter step to fine tune distance.

I've had this discussion in class, in not doing 6 steps to close distance when I can do it far quicker with 4

 

[Gerry Seymour]

that installing a movement pattern that you then have to install another one over the top off, which wastes development time, and theres a fair chance they will revert to the inial less efficient one under stress.

and it's not " random steps " people have an optimum stride length for quick movement, and it's at that pitch they need to practise, eastern ma seemingly having been design ed for people who are 5.6 with short legs. the regulation step may not be best for a 6,2 guy or girl with long legs. then a shorter step to fine tune distance.

I've had this discussion in class, in not doing 6 steps to close distance when I can do it far quicker with 4

It sounds like what you’re saying is each person needs to develop...(wait for it)...a consistent base to work from. I’ve never seen that taught as a single stride length for everyone, which seems to be what you’re arguing against.

 

[jobo]

It sounds like what you’re saying is each person needs to develop...(wait for it)...a consistent base to work from. I’ve never seen that taught as a single stride length for everyone, which seems to be what you’re arguing against.

o not at all I'm saying they need to establish a variable base to work from, that a variation from the mean to suit there body type and variable stride length to suit the actual circumstance they are in. it's clear a one size fits all doesn't work for all people or all( most situation. theres for any attempt at standardization is counter productive.

and back to the main issue any attempt to regulate cata as sequence with others which then demands a standard stride length or to return to the same spot is teaching habits that goes against combat efficiency, that will ha e to be unlearn, at some point or have a life time of sub optimal performance, unless you happen to be 5.6 with short legs, then your not to bad

 

[skribs]

It sounds like what you’re saying is each person needs to develop...(wait for it)...a consistent base to work from. I’ve never seen that taught as a single stride length for everyone, which seems to be what you’re arguing against.

It depends on the context. In our demonstration team, we expect that all members maintain a consistent spot in the grid. So that way you don't start off with the group looking like a Notepad file and halfway through the form it looks like a 5-year-old's handwriting.

 

[dvcochran]

but then we have gone full circle, theres no practicle benfit from uniform stepping, unless it's for Kata as a performance art, infact it is quite possibly a backward step( pun intended) if Kata is to help cement movement patterns for " combat" . then you want a stride pattern that is big step, big step, to close or open distances and small step to fine tune the distance for you kick or punch.

teaching someone to move in uniform steps means it's highly unlikely them will end up at optimum range for a strike, if they compensate that by doing all small steps, it makes them slower across the ground

It is important to teach your students to perform each move of a form correctly and with power. Does it matter if they are off a few inches at the end of the form? No. Should they be aware of maintaining the "performance" side of the form? Yes. It is teaching someone to pay attention to details and make them better overall.

 

[Earl Weiss]

. If we try to load a new student with all of it the first night/week/month, it is unlikely they will get any of it right.
.

Even a thirsty man cannot drink from a fire hose.

 

[Earl Weiss]

, theres no practicle benfit from uniform stepping,

I disagree. The practical benefit is to instill good habits. This assumes of course there is a good reason to perform the "Uniform" step and stance. Possible reasons would be to maintain a stable base, maintian good balance, or be in a position that facilitates a certain technique.

 

[Earl Weiss]

o not at all I'm saying they need to establish a variable base to work from, that a variation from the mean to suit there body type and variable stride length to suit the actual circumstance they are in. it's clear a one size fits all doesn't work for all people or all( most situation. theres for any attempt at standardization is counter productive.

OK - Got it now. I can't speak for all systems. The Chang Hon system defines stances in relation to ones body size. Typically the length of one's feet or the width of ones shoulders. Still this is considered to be flexible due to human variations.
FWIW I consider pattern specifications to be a Variable Base from which to morph any and all elements as needed for any situation. . This morphing is donethru vrious aspects of the system including Sparring in various formats and Ho Sin Sul.