Wide stances and ending your forms on the same spot
- Thread starter skribs
- Start date
I'm anti-tradition. Why should I do my form the same way as the ancient form creator did? The best that I can do is just another good copy machine, no more and no less.
Do you want be just another copy machine for the rest of your life?
Do you want be just another copy machine for the rest of your life?
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
To an extant - Subjective. However in some systems like Chang Hon the technical parameters are very specific so certain competitions in specific orgs like the ITF go to great lengths to make it objective.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Maybe there are reasons for why they did what they did.
I know I think of this because of how I train forms and nothing in my forms are consistent with stanches, in kung fu stances often change in size and width. A stance to the left side is rarely mirrored to the right side (same as right and left) and we always tend to land almost in the same space provided that a technique wasn't missed or a angle was wrong.
To me doing forms is more like defending or fighting within a specific area. The person "goes out to battle and returns home" Returning home doesn't mean returning to a chair in the house, it means I'm returning to the house. The area that I'm trying to defend is my yard (the area of where my form exists). When I do my forms, I'm fighting and moving people out of the yard. As long as I know where my house is I can always return to it regardless of how far I extend on one side.
In Korean and Japanese martial arts there tends to be more of a sense of uniformity. If you go 5 steps to right side then you must go back 5 steps and then go 5 steps to the left side.
If I had to guess, I would say that forms probably originally had some mystical influence behind them where things must be done a certain way in order to create balance. This concept exists in both Chinese and Japanese martial arts. Japanese and Korean martial arts tend to do the mirroring. In Kung Fu the only way to mirror the form is to do the form on the original side and then flip the form and do it on the opposite side (Do the form left handed and right handed)
Forgive Kung Fu wang. That's his CMA talking plus he doesn't like forms so he would do something like that lol.
jobo
Grandmaster
if the reasons are not reasonably obvious, then theres a fair chance the reasons are not logical and just a made up rule for the only purpose of having a rule ?
Yes... Because the copy helps build the foundation and understanding. Once you have that then you'll have enough information to change and advance the form. Every brilliant scientist had to be a copy machine learning the same basic math skills. Those basic math skills helped to form their foundation. Once they learned Basic Math, then they may have learned Basic Physics. But even Basics Physics grows from the root of Basic Math. You can't learn Basic Physics if you do not now Basic Math.
So for me Yes I want to be another copy machine. But unlike other copy machines in the past. I can also scan, print from a computer and copy to a computer, be put on a network, and send a fax and email. From a practical fighting perspective forms were never meant to be the "Beginning and End of everything." They are just the foundation that other stuff and new stuff are build off of.
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
Most of the forms are designed to try and end on the same spot. But I think a lot of it also has to do with practicing both sides of a technique.
The form designer doesn't have to consider that. Anybody can change the right move into the left move (or the other way around) and have a mirror image of the form.
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
There are many reasons why this approach does not match with the Taekwondo I have trained. I think in this case it comes down to a difference in style. I'm not saying your style is wrong, I'm merely saying it doesn't fit the way TKD forms are taught.
I'm not talking about the beginner level training. I'm talking about the advance level training. No matter how many research papers that you have read, you still have to write your own Phd thesis to obtain your Phd degree.
This has nothing to do with style. Anybody can train a "mirror form" if they want to.
For example, if your form has:
1. left leg forward left downward block.
2. step in right leg right punch.
3. skip in left leg right side kick.
You can also train
1. right leg forward right downward block.
2. step in left leg left punch.
3. skip in right leg left side kick.
You can take any form from any MA system and train the "mirror form".
Sure, but what he's saying (and it is correct) is that the forms were designed from the start to train both sides.
There are a very few exceptions. For example, in the Palgwae forms, there is a downward palm heel block and vertical spearhand combination that is ONLY done with the left hand blocking and the right hand thrusting.
Personally, I make it a point to mention things that are only done one-sided and encourage practicing those combinations with the other side as well.
Whether you end up in the same spot or not largely depends on the design of the forms. None of the forms I designed work that way - I just couldn't be bothered to get them tuned to that extent. I adjusted the movement to tighten the pattern (one of them originally took the entire training space to do, so only one person could do it at a time...maybe two at best), but that's as far as I went.
I'm going to guess some form designers will have bothered to tune the movements to end (if done exactly with the step proportions they used) at the original spot. That's tidy and useful for groups doing kata together. But I don't think it's an important point (obviously, or I'd have done it).
And even for those forms designed that way, I don't think it's a sign of bad execution if you end up in a different spot. Different people have different advantages, and should play those in forms, as in sparring. So, if you have great side movement, cover distance to the side. If you have a bad ankle on the left foot, maybe take a smaller step when shifting to that foot than when shifting to the right. Either of those can cause the end position to change.
I'm going to guess some form designers will have bothered to tune the movements to end (if done exactly with the step proportions they used) at the original spot. That's tidy and useful for groups doing kata together. But I don't think it's an important point (obviously, or I'd have done it).
And even for those forms designed that way, I don't think it's a sign of bad execution if you end up in a different spot. Different people have different advantages, and should play those in forms, as in sparring. So, if you have great side movement, cover distance to the side. If you have a bad ankle on the left foot, maybe take a smaller step when shifting to that foot than when shifting to the right. Either of those can cause the end position to change.
Just shut up about shutting up, would ya?Yup. I don’t make the rules. Nor do I want to. I just want to shut up and train. Funny thing is I haven’t figured out the shut up part of that one yet. And I doubt I will for any length of time
This is how I got started. Careful, or you'll turn into a postwhore.
JR 137
Grandmaster
I think I’ll slow down before I get to that point and just settle at postslut.
JR 137
Grandmaster
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