Why your TKD blocks may not work

[DaveB]

Frankly, I have serious doubts that that stuff would work against strikes or grabs. I've personally never seen them used against wrestling or grappling, and within grappling itself, we don't use any of that to counter those types of grips. Unfortunately, its more theory than practical application against skilled fighters, which seems to be the hang up for a lot of traditional martial arts.

I imagine a grappled will be looking to improve his position and continue grappling as opposed to freeing a limb to hit with it.

Also if your grappler has learned bjj or wrestling etc why would you expect to see a karate technique?

 

[DaveB]

I personally just don't see a stepping punch as a close proxy to any punch you'd encounter in a self-defense situation, from a haymaker to a sucker punch. To me, the stepping punch (and blocks used against it) feels like a left-over from sword training or bayonet training--useful for teaching basic principles and theories, but not as much practical application to practical empty-handed combat.

It's not close proxy, it's a simplified template, but the point was more that the big blocking technique works best against an equally big attack. Like one where you can see the wind up. A non committal attack like a jab warrants an equally non committal defence, matching the energy being directed at you

 

[wab25]

It's not that simple that using uke techniques as blocks was just made up by people after Funakoshi. Funakoshi himself did teach uke techniques as blocks as well.

Interesting... that Funakoshi is demonstrating the mid block as a hammer fist to the jaw, followed by a back fist. This is how JowGaWolf saw it. The other "blocks" shown by Funakoshi were used to off balance and or ruin the stance of the opponent. He does not "block" the punch, leaving the other guy unaffected. He is using his "blocks" to enter and off balance the other guy.

You are correct, its not that simple. Yet people simply ignore or marginalize the throws in these moves, as "alternate" applications, when Funakoshi considered them the application. Of coarse these moves have more than one application. I argue that all of the applications for these moves, taught by Funakoshi, should be considered the main applications, not the alternative applications.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Frankly, I have serious doubts that that stuff would work against strikes or grabs. I've personally never seen them used against wrestling or grappling, and within grappling itself, we don't use any of that to counter those types of grips. Unfortunately, its more theory than practical application against skilled fighters, which seems to be the hang up for a lot of traditional martial arts.

It just depends on the type of grab you are being attacked with. In Jow Ga I always looked at it as defense against a seizing grab. BJJ often does a passing grab as the initial grab. Meaning that the initial grab is for a short period of time before initiating another grab. If some one is going to do a hip throw then they plan to hold onto that arm to transition into a through. BJJ is not afraid to grab let go and grab again. Until you get the better position. When I spar against wrestlers, I always worry about what comes after the first grab.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Down Block - Used statically you will break your arm. Used with movement you can catch most kicks and then sweep the leg.
Middle Block - You can go back and forth with this, inside-outside, and quite efficiently block punches
High Block - Very useful for getting their arm out of the way for a strike to the gut.

I have no issues using these techniques as blocks.

If you can, show me your perspective in a sparring video. It will help me to visualize your perspective.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes. But if it's being taught specifically as a block...chances are it will work in that application!

One only needs to try to use these techniques as blocks during sparring to find out the difficulties that exists.

 

[Balrog]

There's a terminology miscommunication here. All blocks are strikes, but not all strikes are blocks.

In a nutshell, a strike is aimed at the body or the head. A block is aimed at an extremity, such as an arm. A block, per se, should not simply misdirect an attack. It should hurt the attacker as well. If done correctly, that pain will serve as a distraction, allowing us to more easily follow up with a counter of some kind.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I got punched in the fist when i tried to use them in play fighting. Granted it wasn't serious, i also nearly whacked my hand into a cabinet.

edit: i think it was closer to using my arm as a shield and fighting it left and right, you know like in some knife fighting retention stances? the USMC combatives one.

 

[drop bear]

You are doing it wrong.

Find movements that stop punches and make them kata.

Higher success rate that way

 

[wab25]

Some interesting things from Funakoshi, in his book Karate-Do Kyohan.
http://www.jka-slovenija.si/varovana/Prirocniki/Karate - do kyohan-1.pdf

Notice on page 23, where he talks about Uchi-te. Notice that this is the last of 7 types of blocking that he talks about. The other types are scooping, trapping, pulling, clearing... Then we get to Uchi-te or Striking Block (the classical blocks).

Striking Block (Uchi-te). The striking block is used in both attack and defense.
Attack vital points with the sword hand (shuto) or single-knuckle (ippon-ken)
fist; or, alternatively, strike with the sword hand (shuto) or wrist to knock an
attacking fist or foot out of the way. Once struck by a well-trained person who
is able to crack an opponent's bones, an attacker loses much of his desire to
fight.

Notice how Funakoshi says that these blocks are attacks to vital points, or alternatively can be used to knock an attacking fist or foot out of the way. (at the end of the book, a chart is shown of the vital points for these Uchi-te attacks.) Funakoshi says that the classical blocks are the alternate versions of these techniques.

Notice step 8 in Heian Shodan:

8. FolIowing a block by the left hand of the opponent's right fist attack, the
point here is to grasp the opponent's right wrist with the left hand and, twisting
the grasped wrist in an outward direction, to break the opponent's right elbow
by bringing the right forearm up against it.

This is the "upper block" being used as a joint lock/break. This same concept shows up again and again in the kata, with Funakoshi referring back to this arm break description.

In Bassai step 12 he says:

Always remember that when the hand is pulled back to the hip after blocking,
as in this case, one must have the feeling of grasping the opponent and
pulling him in.

He is saying that in these katas, every block that then returns to chamber should be pulling something with it. This is not Uchi-te then, but one of the other pulling blocks (Hiki-te) he mentioned before the "classical blocks."

Now, go forward and look at the throws section. Notice how they start looking very similar to the "classical blocks" except that they are done as scooping, pulling or trapping blocks, off balancing and moving into the throws.

Throwing techniques include byobndaoshi, komanage, kubiuxi, kauuoaquruma., teubameqaeehi, yaridama, taniotoshi, udeuia, sakaieuchi, and others." All these techniques should be studied, referring to basic kata.

Essentially, these throws and others should be studied in the basic kata.

Yet somehow these days, we skip the first 6 blocking methods, and ignore the primary purpose of the 7th blocking method, to study the "classic blocks." What Funakoshi considered the alternate version, of his 7th way to receive an attack has now become the "classic blocks" studied in Karate. And when it is suggested to some that these should instead be strikes to the opponent... that is shrugged off as being some variation, when that was Funakoshi's primary application of those "blocks." However, he lists 6 other methods of receiving attacks, before the striking blocks. Reading through his description of the kata, most of the blocks come from the first 6 methods. Surprisingly, using those versions in the kata, allows you to move right into the throws he lists and more.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

All blocks are strikes, ...

The only concern about the 'hard block" is your opponent can borrow your blocking force. For example.

- Your opponent uses a straight punch to your face.
- You use a hard inside out block on him.
- He borrows your blocking force, change his straight punch into a circular hook punch to your head.

If you don't want your opponent's arm to borrow your blocking force. you have to use soft block with grabbing instead.

Soft block - not much force to borrow.
Grabbing - restrict the mobility.

 

[skribs]

One only needs to try to use these techniques as blocks during sparring to find out the difficulties that exists.

I find no difficulty in sparring. We don't use the full range of motion that you're taught to in the forms. It kind of ends up looking like all the various blocks from the famous wax-on/wax-off scene from the Karate Kid. If I'm using my left hand, and someone throws a jab-reverse combo, I can wave my hand to their jab like an inside block (out-to-in block) and then wave out at their cross. It's not a very big motion. It's not the typical chamber at your ear, snap all the way through block. That's just to teach you where the block starts and ends (outside to inside).

We drill these blocks against punches and kicks, and you learn quite quickly how to use them correctly.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I find no difficulty in sparring. We don't use the full range of motion that you're taught to in the forms. It kind of ends up looking like all the various blocks from the famous wax-on/wax-off scene from the Karate Kid. If I'm using my left hand, and someone throws a jab-reverse combo, I can wave my hand to their jab like an inside block (out-to-in block) and then wave out at their cross. It's not a very big motion. It's not the typical chamber at your ear, snap all the way through block. That's just to teach you where the block starts and ends (outside to inside).

We drill these blocks against punches and kicks, and you learn quite quickly how to use them correctly.

Do you find the low blocks effective against kicks? I've had difficulty with them, and have heard that it carries the risk of one of the bones (I think radius?) breaking.
@Dirty Dog do you know if there's any scientific/medical validity to that?

 

[JowGaWolf]

ALL moves in TKD use the Yin Yang (Um Yang) principal. Everything has an equal and opposite. This is a common theme in many MA styles and the basis for creating power and speed. It is utilizing the whole body. There were several times in the video that the movements were very segmented and the corresponding body parts were not in unison.

I took it as he was just explaining the concept of it without getting into the details of it. It's sort of how I cover things when I'm spoon feeding people Kung Fu. I recently put in a video of me working with a student on the application of the technique and I only decided to take one part of the technique to cover.

You have a very specific approach to using a low block, similar to kali's idea of attacking whatever is closest. In TKD a low block is not a scraping movement aimed solely at the hand. It is simply blocking or moving anything that is attacking you low. The common example is a strike towards the groin.

Most strikes to the groin are kicks and if you aren't careful then you'll break your arm trying to block kicks that low. The biggest risk which made me think that it wasn't a block is that to block like that leaves your head exposed so I can make a kick look low, then have it rise and kick you in the head. If you were to try and use that low block as it's shown in a real fight, then you'll get knocked out. You would have to abandon the concept to use it that way in application. However if you keep the same concept that I mention, then you can perform the technique almost exactly as you would in the form.

This is more in line with how I see it in Jow Ga Kung Fu. You can literally see the same shape of movement of that TKD low block that is done in the form.

This is also in line with what I know of "low block" which is really not a block but a strike. The reason why is because he moves out of the way of the kick and then he punishes the offending leg. The first downward block that he did on top of the shine will break your arm. I'm 100% sure of that as I almost broken mine like that when I screwed up on the "low block". I came down on the kick instead of moving out of the way first and then strike. It was just a natural reaction when I did it. It blocked the kick but I paid a heavy price.
I wouldn't recommend it unless your arms are like solid steel and your opponents shins are like wet noodles.

This is an interesting one. I don't know if it works but it's definitely not a block

On a personal note. I would never intentionally use a "low block" to block a kick like this guy does.

By the way. it's going to be a long discussion between you and me. So I guess I'll just go down the list and hit the next "block" once we juice everything out of the low block.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A screw driver CAN be used to hammer a nail.

Not always true. Which is why most people don't use screw drivers to hammer nails. Even when the screwdriver has been altered to make it a "better hammer" it still under performs. This would be like saying using the right technique against a given technique.

This is why a hammer is a hammer. The right technique against a given technique

Still a hammer

Think of it this way. If you had a screw driver in a fight would you hammer or stab your attacker?
If you had hammer in a fight would you stab or hammer?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I find no difficulty in sparring. We don't use the full range of motion that you're taught to in the forms. It kind of ends up looking like all the various blocks from the famous wax-on/wax-off scene from the Karate Kid. If I'm using my left hand, and someone throws a jab-reverse combo, I can wave my hand to their jab like an inside block (out-to-in block) and then wave out at their cross. It's not a very big motion. It's not the typical chamber at your ear, snap all the way through block. That's just to teach you where the block starts and ends (outside to inside).

We drill these blocks against punches and kicks, and you learn quite quickly how to use them correctly.

Can you get some sparring video of this? I would like to see the approach you take.

 

[Hanzou]

I imagine a grappled will be looking to improve his position and continue grappling as opposed to freeing a limb to hit with it.

There's also a good amount of grip fighting/stripping in grappling as well. Allowing someone to beat you at grips is a fast way to end up losing the battle.

Also if your grappler has learned bjj or wrestling etc why would you expect to see a karate technique?

It's about using what works. We don't care where it comes from as long as it does the job.

 

[Hanzou]

It just depends on the type of grab you are being attacked with.

Those movements aren't even used for defense or blocking in modern striking. They're archaic holdovers that are being trained just for the sake of tradition and now practitioners are attempting to find expanded meaning on said archaic movements. If Karatekas or TKDers were serious about seeing if any of those movements were useful for breaking grips, they'd head over to a Judo or Bjj club and actually test them against resisting opponents.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just throwing this in here to add some more perspectives

Jingle Bell Tree. Personally I just rather step off center. The interesting thing is that he keeps saying that he would rather for you to break your arm.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Those movements aren't even used for defense or blocking in modern striking. They're archaic holdovers that are being trained just for the sake of tradition and now practitioners are attempting to find expanded meaning on said archaic movements. If Karatekas or TKDers were serious about seeing if any of those movements were useful for breaking grips, they'd head over to a Judo or Bjj club and actually test them against resisting opponents.

Would it count if I try the techniques in free sparring? Or does it have to be a Karateka or TKDers?