Why Wouldn't A Good Athlete Be Good In The Martial Arts

[Tony Dismukes]

Based on my experience, all other factors being equal, a martial arts student starting out as an experienced athlete will progress more quickly than a student who starts out without that background. Contributing factors include:

1. Kinesthetic awareness
2. Balance
3. Experience learning physical skills
4. Physical conditioning allowing more training time and intensity
5. Mental fortitude to push through physical discomfort and frustration
6. ... and many more

Of course, none of this means that a good athlete will automatically become a good martial artist.

If the athlete doesn't have the same motivation and dedication to their martial art as they did to their previous sport, then they won't get as far. If a great basketball player tries Karate, but finds it boring, then they won't become a great karateka.

The skills and attributes required by the prior sport can vary in how much they carry over to a given martial art. From my experience teaching BJJ, I'd say that rock climbing, gymnastics, American football, soccer, rugby, powerlifting, and strong man competition all give a significant advantage for new BJJ students. I imagine that a baseball player would have some advantage over a complete couch potato, but the benefits would probably not be nearly so great.

I say all this as someone who came into martial arts with minimal athletic experience or talent. It took me years to reach the point that some of my students reach in a few months.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I met a senior martial artist at a seminar years ago who said if he had his preference, he'd require 6 months of dance training before accepting someone as a student. For his art, this would almost certainly be a great start, but something like Rugby would probably make it hard for them to learn the extreme nuance he worked with.

I saw something similar with ling time Karate practitioners and taiji. It took them forever to relax in the form. But i once dated an ex-ballerina, that i meant in a long fist class. Her long fist and taiji were absolutely amazing. I would just sit there a watch her do forms

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I saw something similar with ling time Karate practitioners and taiji. It took them forever to relax in the form. But i once dated an ex-ballerina, that i meant in a long fist class. Her long fist and taiji were absolutely amazing. I would just sit there a watch her do forms

One of my 3 year students was a ballet dancer, she is progressing faster than the others.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

I saw something similar with ling time Karate practitioners and taiji. It took them forever to relax in the form. But i once dated an ex-ballerina, that i meant in a long fist class. Her long fist and taiji were absolutely amazing. I would just sit there a watch her do forms

This is similar to a recent discussion I had with a Chen-style taijiquan practitioner. In thirty years of teaching there were only two occasions of somebody learning the frame/form with unbelievable speed. One was an autistic guy who needed see the moves just once and could imitate them. The other was a young dancer who came to learn taijiquan before heading off to university, she was so used to learning dance routines that her mind and body could absorb movement patterns with ease.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is similar to a recent discussion I had with a Chen-style taijiquan practitioner. In thirty years of teaching there were only two occasions of somebody learning the frame/form with unbelievable speed. One was an autistic guy who needed see the moves just once and could imitate them. The other was a young dancer who came to learn taijiquan before heading off to university, she was so used to learning dance routines that her mind and body could absorb movement patterns with ease.

I'm telling you, a ballerina doing long fist is a thing of beauty to watch.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

I'm telling you, a ballerina doing long fist is a thing of beauty to watch.

Yes, I am sure a ballerina doing long fist is a thing of beauty. Xue Sheng, your post was quoted and replied to when it was this one by Wing Woo Gar that actually inspired my response:

One of my 3 year students was a ballet dancer, she is progressing faster than the others.

This was the reason for mentioning a teacher's memories of two previous students progressing so speedily when learning the Chen style frame/form.

 

[HighKick]

One of my 3 year students was a ballet dancer, she is progressing faster than the others.

There is a dance/ballet school next door to one of our schools. People come and go both classes. The ballet students have always had trouble adapting to the stances and footwork in TKD. But their flexibility and core strength are usually off the charts good.
I had an 18-year-old girl make it all the way to the AAU Nationals in sparring. She did not medal but did go very deep in the bracketing.

 

[windwalker099]

Feel the main point is that they know "how" to train, and understand their bodies response to training.

The same qualities that make a person excel in one discipline—such as drive, discipline, and perseverance—all needed in any discipline can lead to success in another.

On one hand, these attributes provide a strong foundation. However, deeply ingrained reactions from prior training may be difficult to change or modify. This challenge is similar to martial artists transitioning from one style to another, where preconditioned movements and habits may not align with the new system.

Not everyone is able to make the transition due to the influence of their previous training.

I have met people who practiced Tango “dance “ and others who did yoga, started training to practice taiji, interesting to see what they bring to the practice—and what sometimes gets in the way.

I've heard of some people who are good athletes but who are not good in the martial arts. Why would that be the case?

It might depend on the level of the athlete—the deeper their training, the harder it may be to change the habits that helped them reach their current level.

 

[HighKick]

Feel the main point is that they know "how" to train, and understand their bodies response to training.

The same qualities that make a person excel in one discipline—such as drive, discipline, and perseverance—all needed in any discipline can lead to success in another.

On one hand, these attributes provide a strong foundation. However, deeply ingrained reactions from prior training may be difficult to change or modify. This challenge is similar to martial artists transitioning from one style to another, where preconditioned movements and habits may not align with the new system.

Not everyone is able to make the transition due to the influence of their previous training.

I have met people who practiced Tango “dance “ and others who did yoga, started training to practice taiji, interesting to see what they bring to the practice—and what sometimes gets in the way.



It might depend on the level of the athlete—the deeper their training, the harder it may be to change the habits that helped them reach their current level.

I've heard of some people who are good athletes but who are not good in the martial arts. Why would that be the case? There are some people who excel in just about any sport they do, examples would be people such as Joe Montana who was the quarterback for the 49ers or Jim Eisenreich who played first base and was also an outfielder and a designated hitter for multiple teams in MLB or Bo Jackson whose famous for playing many sports. You would think such people would be good in the martial arts if they chose to do it.

t might depend on the level of the athlete—the deeper their training, the harder it may be to change the habits that helped them reach their current level.

Forgive the gaffs in the formatting of the post. Trying to respond to the @PhotonGuy 's OP and @windwalker099 's post.

I feel I can speak to the OP on a personal level. When I made my Olympic run, I was already an MA's school owner/instructor, worked a fulltime job and operated a large cattle operation. To say my schedule was Crazy is an understatement. Oh, and I was recently married with a child the next year. Everything suffered and/or sacrificed during the 3-1/2 year run.
To say I was truly obsessed with the Olympics is a massive understatement. I put everything on the back burner, giving them less than the absolute minimum time investment. I had to learn how to maximize my training time to have any chance. I was already a 'great' athlete from my high school and college sports routine, so the training quotient was not a huge adjustment. Hard training has never been a problem for me, and I can/could take and digest anything thrown at me. And back then, much of it was done without question as long as I knew it was for the purpose of my ultimate end game, the Olympics. Long story short, from a purely results perspective, all my hard work paid off and I was 1-1/2 matches from making the '88 team.

After my run, I had a very hard time transitioning back into my old routine inside the schools. Hard as I tried, I could not 'get' very many people willing to train at such a high level. It took a long time for my 'candle' to burn down to a level where I could effectively teach the average person. I sincerely hope that doesn't sound arrogant.

The mindset of a competitive athlete and a traditional instructor are very different. Think short and long game. There will always be people who can train at a very high level for a long time, but they are the exception. Long time instructors (masters) know this and also know how and when to push a student when needed. Usually, it is done in baby steps and there is an expected degree of peaks and valleys that go along with it. It took me quite a while to figure this out.

There are overlaps in what is done in training and in competition, but the intensity and expected results will always be very different. Else, everyone would be competing at the highest levels. And it is important to remember there is definitely a very large component of learning that has zero to do with competition. It just happens to be a convenient way to test what we teach/learn. I would say less than 50% of people who train will never enter a tournament or competition outside of their regular classes. This certainly does Not make them any less of a martial artist than the highest achieving competitors. Likely better in many aspects.

 

[PhotonGuy]

No I just meant athletes such as runners swimmers and riders can also be fairly good at martial arts - Fencing

I was a competitive swimmer for three years so I would have to agree with you about swimming, it can definitely help you in the martial arts as can running. But I also did three years of equestrian and I would have to disagree with you on that, equestrian won't really help you that much in the martial arts except maybe a bit with the stances and the leg work.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Based on my experience, all other factors being equal, a martial arts student starting out as an experienced athlete will progress more quickly than a student who starts out without that background. Contributing factors include:

1. Kinesthetic awareness
2. Balance
3. Experience learning physical skills
4. Physical conditioning allowing more training time and intensity
5. Mental fortitude to push through physical discomfort and frustration
6. ... and many more

Of course, none of this means that a good athlete will automatically become a good martial artist.

No it won't, they will also have to have the proper attitude, they will have to want to do it.

If the athlete doesn't have the same motivation and dedication to their martial art as they did to their previous sport, then they won't get as far. If a great basketball player tries Karate, but finds it boring, then they won't become a great karateka.

If they find it boring they will probably quit which goes along with what I said above.

The skills and attributes required by the prior sport can vary in how much they carry over to a given martial art. From my experience teaching BJJ, I'd say that rock climbing, gymnastics, American football, soccer, rugby, powerlifting, and strong man competition all give a significant advantage for new BJJ students.

I would say yes they would give a significant advantage in the beginning but such activities will help somebody all along in BJJ to a certain extent. With the kind of BJJ I do, that I've been doing for the last seven years or so, it relies more on strategy than on strength particularly at the advanced levels but being strong will always help you somewhat. Flexibility which you can get from gymnastics will definitely help you at all levels.

I imagine that a baseball player would have some advantage over a complete couch potato, but the benefits would probably not be nearly so great.

I would agree, with baseball you spend lots of time standing still so its not going to get you in the best shape, most of the time in baseball you're either standing in the field or you're sitting in the dugout but it can help with skill and coordination.

I say all this as someone who came into martial arts with minimal athletic experience or talent. It took me years to reach the point that some of my students reach in a few months.

With martial arts you can develop athletic experience.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I saw something similar with ling time Karate practitioners and taiji. It took them forever to relax in the form. But i once dated an ex-ballerina, that i meant in a long fist class. Her long fist and taiji were absolutely amazing. I would just sit there a watch her do forms

I would love to see a ballerina do a long fist form.

 

[PhotonGuy]

There is a dance/ballet school next door to one of our schools. People come and go both classes. The ballet students have always had trouble adapting to the stances and footwork in TKD. But their flexibility and core strength are usually off the charts good.
I had an 18-year-old girl make it all the way to the AAU Nationals in sparring. She did not medal but did go very deep in the bracketing.

It would be interesting to see how a ballet student would be at Gracie Jiu Jitsu where flexibility is important and where good core strength really helps.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Forgive the gaffs in the formatting of the post. Trying to respond to the @PhotonGuy 's OP and @windwalker099 's post.

I feel I can speak to the OP on a personal level. When I made my Olympic run, I was already an MA's school owner/instructor, worked a fulltime job and operated a large cattle operation. To say my schedule was Crazy is an understatement. Oh, and I was recently married with a child the next year. Everything suffered and/or sacrificed during the 3-1/2 year run.
To say I was truly obsessed with the Olympics is a massive understatement. I put everything on the back burner, giving them less than the absolute minimum time investment. I had to learn how to maximize my training time to have any chance. I was already a 'great' athlete from my high school and college sports routine, so the training quotient was not a huge adjustment. Hard training has never been a problem for me, and I can/could take and digest anything thrown at me. And back then, much of it was done without question as long as I knew it was for the purpose of my ultimate end game, the Olympics. Long story short, from a purely results perspective, all my hard work paid off and I was 1-1/2 matches from making the '88 team.

That must've been quite the experience, I do remember seeing a Taekwondo match in the 88 Olympics where an American fighter was going up against a Korean fighter who was labeled as the best in the world. When the Korean fighter was winning the referee stopped the fight and the American was outraged about it.

After my run, I had a very hard time transitioning back into my old routine inside the schools. Hard as I tried, I could not 'get' very many people willing to train at such a high level. It took a long time for my 'candle' to burn down to a level where I could effectively teach the average person. I sincerely hope that doesn't sound arrogant.

You're not being arrogant, some people might say you're being egotistical but you're not arrogant, not if you really did train at such a high level. Its not arrogant to mention stuff that you really did.

The mindset of a competitive athlete and a traditional instructor are very different. Think short and long game. There will always be people who can train at a very high level for a long time, but they are the exception. Long time instructors (masters) know this and also know how and when to push a student when needed. Usually, it is done in baby steps and there is an expected degree of peaks and valleys that go along with it. It took me quite a while to figure this out.

I think that mostly has to do with heart and drive, if a student has enough heart and drive and desire they will be able to train at a higher level for longer than somebody who doesn't. A student with more heart and drive can also be pushed more without quitting.

There are overlaps in what is done in training and in competition, but the intensity and expected results will always be very different. Else, everyone would be competing at the highest levels. And it is important to remember there is definitely a very large component of learning that has zero to do with competition. It just happens to be a convenient way to test what we teach/learn. I would say less than 50% of people who train will never enter a tournament or competition outside of their regular classes. This certainly does Not make them any less of a martial artist than the highest achieving competitors. Likely better in many aspects.

No it doesn't because there is more to the martial arts than tournaments and competition, that is just one part of it, the martial arts is so much more.